All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[manicpie]

is "glory to hamas" antisemitic?


ah manic...are you working in the same propaganda room as zevie....playing good cop, dumb cop?

I think it deserves a better answer than that. I will assume you can't answer it but would prefer an opinion

 

[Markfs]

I think it deserves a better answer than that. I will assume you can't answer it but would prefer an opinion

you put people in a jail and then blame them for "starting it" when they take action.....i've seen dozens of people express that to israeli sympathisers like yourself and the reply is always that they should have sat at home and begged for the israelis to treat them nicer. This cycle has been going on for decades.

Before that, of course, hundreds of thousands of palestinians were pushed off land by. the israelis and when they initiated actions to get the land back, they were told to stay in their refugee camps and beg the israelis to treat them nicer.

The UN, IRONICALLY, gave a piece of land to a pack of europeans after WWII to make up for what europeans did to fellow europeans. That piece of land was nominally run by the pommes. Try to see any fairness in that. And IRONICALLY the israelis are calling the UN antisemitic for questioning the israeli murder of palestinians.

And in the end the israelis will get their promised land....so just be happy manic....it will all come to pass.

 

[manicpie]

you put people in a jail and then blame them for "starting it" when they take action.....i've seen dozens of people express that to israeli sympathisers like yourself and the reply is always that they should have sat at home and begged for the israelis to treat them nicer. This cycle has been going on for decades.

Before that, of course, hundreds of thousands of palestinians were pushed off land by. the israelis and when they initiated actions to get the land back, they were told to stay in their refugee camps and beg the israelis to treat them nicer.

The UN, IRONICALLY, gave a piece of land to a pack of europeans after WWII to make up for what europeans did to fellow europeans. That piece of land was nominally run by the pommes. Try to see any fairness in that. And IRONICALLY the israelis are calling the UN antisemitic for questioning the israeli murder of palestinians.

And in the end the israelis will get their promised land....so just be happy manic....it will all come to pass.

Very poor answer. I'm not the one advocating for Hamas. If a person continues to advocate for a terrorist entity, it's going to take a lot more than your blatant hate of Israel to convince anyone. I'm looking a lot deeper and trying to understand what's really behind this and all I get from you is that Hamas is wonderful and wouldn't dare hurt a palestinian. You know what's really dumb, a terrorist sympathiser and even dumber is trying to convince the average person that you're right. It's going to take a lot more than that to convince me that Hamas is good. I've already admitted that I was wrong about israel and it's constant attack on palestinians. It's up to you now to convince me that Hamas is the innocent party in all this. Otherwise , you just aren't able to answer my question and just expect me to side with you and Hamas

 

[Markfs]

Very poor answer. I'm not the one advocating for Hamas. If a person continues to advocate for a terrorist entity, it's going to take a lot more than your blatant hate of Israel to convince anyone. I'm looking a lot deeper and trying to understand what's really behind this and all I get from you is that Hamas is wonderful and wouldn't dare hurt a palestinian. You know what's really dumb, a terrorist sympathiser and even dumber is trying to convince the average person that you're right. It's going to take a lot more than that to convince me that Hamas is good. I've already admitted that I was wrong about israel and it's constant attack on palestinians. It's up to you now to convince me that Hamas is the innocent party in all this. Otherwise , you just aren't able to answer my question and just expect me to side with you and Hamas

do you really think that i would waste my time trying to convince you of anything?

what happened to that bolt from the blue last week? you'd been misled, you said...lol. Well at least you're practising your lying. You'll do well.

 

[manicpie]

do you really think that i would waste my time trying to convince you of anything?

what happened to that bolt from the blue last week? you'd been misled, you said...lol. Well at least you're practising your lying. You'll do well.

That's pretty much the response I expected from you. I've already answered that. Sorry that I'm not as blinded as you when it comes to terrorist organisations. Name calling is about all you have. I'd rather be a dumb liar than be fooled by someone who's only mission is to denigrate a particular race. I'm sure you'd be welcome at Hamas. They are always on the lookout for gullible people. You can judge me however you like but I stand by what I said. My only question is your support for the terrorist organisation that is holding the reigns in Palestine.

 

[sr36]

Very poor answer. I'm not the one advocating for Hamas. If a person continues to advocate for a terrorist entity, it's going to take a lot more than your blatant hate of Israel to convince anyone. I'm looking a lot deeper and trying to understand what's really behind this and all I get from you is that Hamas is wonderful and wouldn't dare hurt a palestinian. You know what's really dumb, a terrorist sympathiser and even dumber is trying to convince the average person that you're right. It's going to take a lot more than that to convince me that Hamas is good. I've already admitted that I was wrong about israel and it's constant attack on palestinians. It's up to you now to convince me that Hamas is the innocent party in all this. Otherwise , you just aren't able to answer my question and just expect me to side with you and Hamas

Murderous aggression is a very human response to a range of situations - and both Israel and Palestinians are in situations where many will respond with murderous aggression - and if that many includes the leaders - you get Oct 7 and the subsequent War on Gaza. The militants on both sides feed off each other.

Both Hamas and the IDF response are symptoms of the situations imposed on them - the repression of Palestine and the constant aggression and abuse directed towards Israel by its neighbours. The two things are so intertwined and so histroically entrenched that its pointless to try to unravel it to look for who was originally more to blame. They've just got to end the war and look for a peaceful way forward.

 

[manicpie]

Murderous aggression is a very human response to a range of situations - and both Israel and Palestinians are in situations where many will respond with murderous aggression - and if that many includes the leaders - you get Oct 7 and the subsequent War on Gaza. The militants on both sides feed off each other.

Both Hamas and the IDF response are symptoms of the situations imposed on them - the repression of Palestine and the constant aggression and abuse directed towards Israel by its neighbours. The two things are so intertwined and so histroically entrenched that its pointless to try to unravel it to look for who was originally more to blame. They've just got to end the war and look for a peaceful way forward.

This is exactly what my point was. I don't condone what Israel is doing but I can't sit back and just believe that Hamas is just a wonderful, caring organisation. That would make me a complete fool. It needs to stop now, but it's too deep rooted on both sides.

 

[JB1975]

Very poor answer. I'm not the one advocating for Hamas. If a person continues to advocate for a terrorist entity, it's going to take a lot more than your blatant hate of Israel to convince anyone. I'm looking a lot deeper and trying to understand what's really behind this and all I get from you is that Hamas is wonderful and wouldn't dare hurt a palestinian. You know what's really dumb, a terrorist sympathiser and even dumber is trying to convince the average person that you're right. It's going to take a lot more than that to convince me that Hamas is good. I've already admitted that I was wrong about israel and it's constant attack on palestinians. It's up to you now to convince me that Hamas is the innocent party in all this. Otherwise , you just aren't able to answer my question and just expect me to side with you and Hamas

I'm not sure how deep you're really trying to go.

To simply see Hamas as a proscribed terrorist organisation seems rather narrow. The Palestinian people have seen their hopes for independent statehood stolen in the West Bank and compressed into an open-air prison in Gaza.

They're a colonised people, subjugated and imprisoned. They have no army and no military. Like other peoples who have sought to resist oppression, they've turned to whatever means of resistance they have at their disposal: that is, terrorism as the weapon of the weak.

They are not the cause of the Palestinian plight; they're a symptom of it.

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I'd be branded some sort of apologist at this point, when all I'm doing is describing the dynamics and implications of Israel's rule over Palestinians.

And I'm also repeating myself.

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I've always believed that the Palestinian people have been the pitiful pawns of the larger Arab world, that they've been led astray from 1948 onwards, convinced to betray their own best interests.

I still think this, but also see the picture as more complicated. In a region which had always been expected to suffer the whims of the West, I can better understand their resentment of the UN's imposition of Israel, and I can understand their resistance to it.

And I see that it is the UN which began the drama, and it is Israel which has been increasingly brutal in its colonisation, because such is the logic of domination.

 

[manicpie]

I'm not sure how deep you're really trying to go.

To simply see Hamas as a proscribed terrorist organisation seems rather narrow. The Palestinian people have seen their hopes for independent statehood stolen in the West Bank and compressed into an open-air prison in Gaza.

They're a colonised people, subjugated and imprisoned. They have no army and no military. Like other peoples who have sought to resist oppression, they've turned to whatever means of resistance they have at their disposal: that is, terrorism as the weapon of the weak.

They are not the cause of the Palestinian plight; they're a symptom of it.

----------------------------------------------------------

I'd be branded some sort of apologist at this point, when all I'm doing is describing the dynamics and implications of Israel's rule over Palestinians.

And I'm also repeating myself.

----------------------------------------------------------

I've always believed that the Palestinian people have been the pitiful pawns of the larger Arab world, that they've been led astray from 1948 onwards, convinced to betray their own best interests.

I still think this, but also see the picture as more complicated. In a region which had always been expected to suffer the whims of the West, I can better understand their resentment of the UN's imposition of Israel, and I can understand their resistance to it.

And I see that it is the UN which began the drama, and it is Israel which has been increasingly brutal in its colonisation, because such is the logic of domination.

Thank you for the response. It's the complicated nature of this that has me asking questions. I just don't think it's fair to be called dumb and a liar for having doubts about Hamas. I have said so many times now that I do not condone Israel's response. I just want to see all the bloodshed stop. I think I have a right to question Hamas's involvement in all this.

 

[Markfs]

i have a vindaloo deja vu feeling....

 

[sr36]

i have a vindaloo deja vu feeling....

I hope you're not out and about and there's a toilet nearby.

 

[Markfs]

the PLO/Palestinian Authority agreed to peace in the Oslo accords and even agreed to recognising israel. Fat lot of good that it did for them when netinyahoo came in as PM a year later after the bloke before him, Rabin, got assassinated for giving away the promised land. Netty spoke at rallies where he spoke about how Rabin had stuffed the jewish goal of the promised land and where Rabin was portrayed as a Nazi. Netty proceeded to belittle the PA and pump up hamas so that palestiinians would be divided and the formation of the two states would never happen. Hamas continued the hardline postion that israel should be destroyed after the PLO had given up that goal, thereby allowing netty to continue to wage war against the Palestinians and then mass murder them, exterminate them and achieve the promised land.

the finer points you can read about....

 

[Markfs]

I hope you're not out and about and there's a toilet nearby.

no but i was wondering if the windy had morphed into a different form...i suppose we all congeal into two constrasting gooey masses after discussing the same stuff for months.

 

[Markfs]

Israel is withholding tax revenue money from the Palestinian Authority, from taxes from Palestinian residents in the West Bank. For the uninitiated, Israel extracts the taxes from the Palestinians and then is required to pass them on the Palestinian Authority.
Not only is Israel denying the PA tax revenues, Finance Minister Belazel Smotrich is also threatening to cut Palestinian banks off from their Israeli counterparts.
The whole move is to starve the PA so that it cant carry out its government related duties. A type of starvation which the israelis are proving extremely adept in. The british gov't has drawn a number of red lines about these actions .....red lines here...red lines there. Good luck pommes with trying to get the money from the israelis.

 

[Markfs]

Netanyahu’s only interest is ‘political survival’: Lapid​

Israeli opposition leader Yair Lapid says on X that Prime Minister Netanyahu and “his entourage” are people whose “only interest is political survival and wreaking havoc in the State of Israel”.
Lapid has been vocal in his criticism of the embattled Israeli leader and his government.
Earlier this month, he said the Netanyahu administration had “lost control”. “Relations with the US are collapsing; the middle class is collapsing,” he said at the time.
“Soldiers are being killed every day in Gaza, and they fight among themselves on television. The cabinet is disassembled and non-functional. Ministers protest in front of cabinet meetings.”

 

[JB1975]

I suppose this must be what a moral and proportionate and self-defensive war must look like.

 

[ZEV]

I suppose this must be what a moral and proportionate and self-defensive war must look like.

Hamas launches rockets towards Tel Aviv for the first time in months

Warning sirens are heard in Tel Aviv for the first time in four months after the armed wing of Hamas launched a barrage of rockets into Israel.

www.abc.net.au

 

[JB1975]

Hamas launches rockets towards Tel Aviv for the first time in months

Warning sirens are heard in Tel Aviv for the first time in four months after the armed wing of Hamas launched a barrage of rockets into Israel.

www.abc.net.au

At this point I can't be sure that you're not just trolling.

 

[Markfs]

At this point I can't be sure that you're not just trolling.

mark regevisms ......some call it fabrication ...

 

[JB1975]

Multiple reports of Israeli strikes in designated 'humanitarian zones', the massacre of people in tents.

Just another day's work for the most moral army in the world.

 

[JB1975]

Plenty of evidence of people burnt alive, even footage of beheaded babies and fragments of what used to be people.

They were told by Israel to be there, to set up their sad tents in that very same area for safety.

Flagrant evil.

 

[Markfs]

Plenty of evidence of people burnt alive, even footage of beheaded babies and fragments of what used to be people.

They were told by Israel to be there, to set up their sad tents in that very same area for safety.

Flagrant evil.

Quite a lot of different people posting about how these actions are justified for a number of different reasons. There are a lot of people out there who want the Palestinians killed or punished or wiped out entirely. This is not going to change.

 

[Markfs]

It's interesting to see one of the comments about the palestinians playing the victim card, using a cartoon to make the point. Haven't the israelis and various jewish groups around the world been playing that card for decades? I think we've seen a heavy dose of it in this thread over the last 7 months with posts involving graffiti and various stories involving anti-semitism. Is the card only available for those with major media resources to play it? Is it only available for people born in europe? I can't conceive a situation where a child burnt to death isn't a victim.

 

[JB1975]

Quite a lot of different people posting about how these actions are justified for a number of different reasons. There are a lot of people out there who want the Palestinians killed or punished or wiped out entirely. This is not going to change.

Even the ABC saw fit to give the story some prominence.

Israeli strike on Rafah, where displaced Gazans are sheltering, kills 35 days after ICJ ruling

Israeli air strikes kill at least 35 Palestinians and wound dozens in an area in the southern Gaza Strip city of Rafah designated for the displaced, Palestinian health and civil emergency service officials say.

www.abc.net.au

Nothing I could see on 'The Age' or elsewhere, though.

----------------------------------------------------

There is no evil which cannot be justified, usually by evil people and sometimes even by some decent ones. In this sense, Rafah is just another day of the usual moral depravity.

Maybe Wong and the PM who grew up in commission housing will say some stern words, maybe not.

Netanyahu will still appear before the US Congress and minions of evil will clap a monster.

I know that nothing will temper this madness, but I also know that something about Israel's relentless barbarism and the unceasing US support for it is being seen in a way it never has before.

 

[ZEV]

Nothing I could see on 'The Age' or elsewhere, though.

Dozens killed in Israel’s ‘precise’ strike on Rafah, Palestinians say

Earlier on Sunday, the Israeli military said eight projectiles had been launched from Rafah toward Tel Aviv – the first rocket attack in months.

www.theage.com.au

Come on JB. It's one thing to share links to propaganda. Don't need to create it yourself.