All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[JB1975]

Dozens killed in Israel’s ‘precise’ strike on Rafah, Palestinians say

Earlier on Sunday, the Israeli military said eight projectiles had been launched from Rafah toward Tel Aviv – the first rocket attack in months.

www.theage.com.au

Come on JB. It's one thing to share links to propaganda. Don't need to create it yourself.

No need to impugn me, Zev.

I didn't see the Age story, buried as it was halfway down the page, underneath more important matters of Labor lobbyists and a story about Ukraine and yet another story about Lehrmann's legal costs.

Propaganda. Irony is cool.

 

[Markfs]

Even the ABC saw fit to give the story some prominence.

Israeli strike on Rafah, where displaced Gazans are sheltering, kills 35 days after ICJ ruling

Israeli air strikes kill at least 35 Palestinians and wound dozens in an area in the southern Gaza Strip city of Rafah designated for the displaced, Palestinian health and civil emergency service officials say.

www.abc.net.au

Nothing I could see on 'The Age' or elsewhere, though.

----------------------------------------------------

There is no evil which cannot be justified, usually by evil people and sometimes even by some decent ones. In this sense, Rafah is just another day of the usual moral depravity.

Maybe Wong and the PM who grew up in commission housing will say some stern words, maybe not.

Netanyahu will still appear before the US Congress and minions of evil will clap a monster.

I know that nothing will temper this madness, but I also know that something about Israel's relentless barbarism and the unceasing US support for it is being seen in a way it never has before.

I'm always hesitant to call something evil. It harks back to the george bush evangelical days and a perception that satan is involved. There are cold hard reasons why the israelis are murdering palestinians, although ironically some of the reasons are due to things said in the torah...

We know the reasons for the evangelical support for the israelis and also know why american politicians vote to supply arms. I dont see the point of using a religious term like evil even though many of the people involved would think of themselves as devout christians. If you show them that it's in their self interest to make more moral judgements, then I'm inclined to think that they will "change" their behaviour. Having said there, groups like the evangelicals have donated part of their decision-making to the bible, and they will never change....such is the ways of religion.

Regarding your last paragraph, I feel positive about some younger americans but I also think of the hippie days and how those ideas evaporated when making money took over the agenda.

 

[ZEV]

No need to impugn me, Zev.

I didn't see the Age story, buried as it was halfway down the page, underneath more important matters of Labor lobbyists and a story about Ukraine and yet another story about Lehrmann's legal costs.

Propaganda. Irony is cool.

If impugnment were my aim, I would highlight the fact that the area has been under evacuation orders since May 6th and the precision strike was targeted at a missile launcher installation that had been used to target Israeli civilians.

Unfortunately, I believe The Age has commercial considerations to consider in it's content.

I would suggest that a deeper view into some of your sources might be prudent.

 

[JB1975]

If impugnment were my aim, I would highlight the fact that the area has been under evacuation orders since May 6th and the precision strike was targeted at a missile launcher installation that had been used to target Israeli civilians.

Unfortunately, I believe The Age has commercial considerations to consider in it's content.

I would suggest that a deeper view into some of your sources might be prudent.

Evacuation orders...for those people to go where?

The thing is, Zev, I'm not so sure about your sources of information. You were telling me the other day about false information related to the 'purportedly dead', but you never did --despite two requests-- back that up with anything.

Israel lies. A lot. You'll excuse me if I don't wait for the official version of the story?

The funniest/most horrific thing is that, even if there was intelligence about a 'missile launcher installation', you think it's okay to massacre children and incinerate tents full of people to strike at it.

This has been the barbarous logic of Israel the whole way through: no price is too high if there is the possibility of hitting a target among civilians. It is understood and accepted that the innocent will die in their multitudes.

Israel accepts (you accept) that thousands of children --who weren't even born when Hamas was elected-- will be shredded.

Israel's occupation creates the resistance, Israel's policies foster and support that resistance, and then it murders everything in its path to tear it down.

Gutless, savage, vile, and gut-wrenching.

 

[Markfs]

good to see the israelis target those kiddies and their missles.

 

[Markfs]

i think we all know about general traits in different societal groups. Aussies have their good and bad characteristics when they are in their groups. Israelis really have a capacity for revenge. It's breathtaking.

 

[sr36]

Dozens killed in Israel’s ‘precise’ strike on Rafah, Palestinians say

Earlier on Sunday, the Israeli military said eight projectiles had been launched from Rafah toward Tel Aviv – the first rocket attack in months.

www.theage.com.au

Come on JB. It's one thing to share links to propaganda. Don't need to create it yourself.

What's Israel's ratios? How many Hamas would need to have been possibly identified in the crowd to bomb an MCG Grand Final sized crowd?

 

[Markfs]

What's Israel's ratios? How many Hamas would need to have been possibly identified in the crowd to bomb an MCG Grand Final sized crowd?

depends how many chosen people were in the crowd....and then there's considerations of how many health workers are attending the game...and teachers, media types.

But it is an interesting question

 

[Markfs]

channel 9 has screened a story on sirens in israel. The sirens havent sounded in months and were relatively loud. No reports of damage have been reported from the sirens. I will continue to monitor mainstream media in the coming hours.

 

[Markfs]

jackie lambie wants to create some form of national service. Cant we use some of the people trained in gaza when they return "home" after the clean-up? Maybe it might compromise their loyalties....

Maybe australia can initiate some form of exchange system where young australians can go to the west bank and learn people skills...

 

[JB1975]

I spend time thinking on the collective psyche of Israel and how it is that so many Israelis can so earnestly support a genocide.

The state of Israel was born of violence and it has always needed to legitimate itself with violence. From the Jewish terrorist groups killing both British and Palestinians in the 1940s to the disproportionate use of retaliatory violence in the present, it seems that cold-blooded murder has become an objective as well as a means to achieve its objectives.

The very ideal of greater Israel --free of its Palestinian inhabitants-- is enough to justify every death. Despite not having faced any real existential threat for nearly half a century, this ethnic-religious-nationalist apparatus still claims self-defence. Despite being an occupier in Gaza and strangling the Palestinians from the West Bank, this mindset needs to believe (and needs everyone else to believe) that it is actually the victim of history.

This is why I still receive emails from Holocaust and Jewish museums and research institutions, asking that I make the same effort in supporting their work as I've always done, even though none of them will ever criticise the government of Israel for its brutality and genocide, despite claiming that their work is driven by larger humanity.

There is something deeply grotesque about this mental trick, probably because they've been so successful in fooling themselves.

-----------------------------------------------------

In giving a pep talk to his generals on the eve of Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939, Hitler tried to convince them that history would be kind, that the brutalities of the present would be washed away and that their glorious deeds would remain untarnished:

'Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?'

Maybe he had a point, because the Turkey which was created at the expense of the Armenians (and others) seemed larger than the genocide which underpinned it.

But history doesn't forget so easily, and the unfolding tragedy of the Palestinians will be remembered almost as sharply as the terror of 9-11. Israel's bloodlust will be remembered, and it is hard to think that the state of Israel will not be permanently defined/defiled by it.

 

[Markfs]

I spend time thinking on the collective psyche of Israel and how it is that so many Israelis can so earnestly support a genocide.

The state of Israel was born of violence and it has always needed to legitimate itself with violence. From the Jewish terrorist groups killing both British and Palestinians in the 1940s to the disproportionate use of retaliatory violence in the present, it seems that cold-blooded murder has become an objective as well as a means to achieve its objectives.

The very ideal of greater Israel --free of its Palestinian inhabitants-- is enough to justify every death. Despite not having faced any real existential threat for nearly half a century, this ethnic-religious-nationalist apparatus still claims self-defence. Despite being an occupier in Gaza and strangling the Palestinians from the West Bank, this mindset needs to believe (and needs everyone else to believe) that it is actually the victim of history.

This is why I still receive emails from Holocaust and Jewish museums and research institutions, asking that I make the same effort in supporting their work as I've always done, even though none of them will ever criticise the government of Israel for its brutality and genocide, despite claiming that their work is driven by larger humanity.

There is something deeply grotesque about this mental trick, probably because they've been so successful in fooling themselves.

-----------------------------------------------------

In giving a pep talk to his generals on the eve of Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939, Hitler tried to convince them that history would be kind, that the brutalities of the present would be washed away and that their glorious deeds would remain untarnished:

'Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?'

Maybe he had a point, because the Turkey which was created at the expense of the Armenians (and others) seemed larger than the genocide which underpinned it.

But history doesn't forget so easily, and the unfolding tragedy of the Palestinians will be remembered almost as sharply as the terror of 9-11. Israel's bloodlust will be remembered, and it is hard to think that the state of Israel will not be permanently defined/defiled by it.

well while none of your jewish academics are willing to question their gov'ts now, and i think that extends to gov'ts outside of israel, funding is also dependent on governments and while history doesn't forget, its difficult for history to remember when it hasnt been written by academics paid by gov'ts.

You only have to look at the indigenous stories that have been overlooked....

At any rate, I couldnt give a stuff if people in 100 years say that the extermination of palestinians was unjustified. I dont want innocents being murdered now, especially when its in the name of getting to a promised land.

I feel at this stage that I need to put a footnote to my thoughts on the palestinians who I have seen interviewed a number of times on aljazeera. The references to god pain me. I understand that religious fundamentalism isnt confined to the israelis or the evangelical zionists. It pains me especially to see very young palestinians refer to god, as if they have the capacity to even understand what they are professing. The brainwashing of people to make them believe that god is with them or that they are chosen or any of the other manmade concepts, is the source of most of the problems. It doubly pains me to see a resurgence of this dribble across the world.

 

[JB1975]

well while none of your jewish academics are willing to question their gov'ts now, and i think that extends to gov'ts outside of israel, funding is also dependent on governments and while history doesn't forget, its difficult for history to remember when it hasnt been written by academics paid by gov'ts.

You only have to look at the indigenous stories that have been overlooked....

At any rate, I couldnt give a stuff if people in 100 years say that the extermination of palestinians was unjustified. I dont want innocents being murdered now, especially when its in the name of getting to a promised land.

I feel at this stage that I need to put a footnote to my thoughts on the palestinians who I have seen interviewed a number of times on aljazeera. The references to god pain me. I understand that religious fundamentalism isnt confined to the israelis or the evangelical zionists. It pains me especially to see very young palestinians refer to god, as if they have the capacity to even understand what they are professing. The brainwashing of people to make them believe that god is with them or that they are chosen or any of the other manmade concepts, is the source of most of the problems. It doubly pains me to see a resurgence of this dribble across the world.

Jewish academics both within and outside of Israel have been relatively outspoken about what's going on in Gaza. I've posted links to a few in this thread.

Justice for Palestinians in the present is to be hoped for. But the injustice has been decades in the making, so it seems likely that any justice will be dispersed across generations, in which case the telling of history will have its role.

Don't be too hard on the believers. I don't really understand faith among the more privileged, except as a tool to justify such privilege, but the need for a kinder afterlife among the strugglers and suffering strikes me as pretty rational.

 

[ZEV]

Evacuation orders...for those people to go where?

The expanded humanitarian zone in Al-Mawasi.

The thing is, Zev, I'm not so sure about your sources of information. You were telling me the other day about false information related to the 'purportedly dead', but you never did --despite two requests-- back that up with anything.

Israel lies. A lot. You'll excuse me if I don't wait for the official version of the story?

It was a Friday afternoon. I was dealing with a shit haircut, preparing for Shabbat and Collingwood v Fremantle. I also work a little. The following night was a Jewish holiday as well.

Given that clear, logical and unbiased evidence I have provided to people in the past it is always dismissed. I didn't feel like trawling and re-googling through the disinformation to prove a point that would be denied anyway.

Israel lies. I do my utmost to tell the truth. I am not the thought police. Feel free to do whatever you like.

The funniest/most horrific thing is that, even if there was intelligence about a 'missile launcher installation', you think it's okay to massacre children and incinerate tents full of people to strike at it.

There was a missile attack against Israel launched from Rafah. It was clear. They leave a trail. Hours later it was destroyed. You accused me of trolling. There is nothing funny about the situation at all.

This has been the barbarous logic of Israel the whole way through: no price is too high if there is the possibility of hitting a target among civilians. It is understood and accepted that the innocent will die in their multitudes.

Israel accepts (you accept) that thousands of children --who weren't even born when Hamas was elected-- will be shredded.

What is the alternative? Continue to let Israel be attacked? Invite Hezbollah to the party as well? This is not a war that Israel wants nor started.

That decision was made for Israel. Not by Israel.

Gutless, savage, vile, and gut-wrenching.

Hamas freedom fighters | Free Palestine

From the river to the sea Palestine will be free | support the freedom of Palestine | Hamas Gaza | We need your support to continue Jihad.

www.hamas.com

 

[Markfs]

Jewish academics both within and outside of Israel have been relatively outspoken about what's going on in Gaza. I've posted links to a few in this thread.

Justice for Palestinians in the present is to be hoped for. But the injustice has been decades in the making, so it seems likely that any justice will be dispersed across generations, in which case the telling of history will have its role.

Don't be too hard on the believers. I don't really understand faith among the more privileged, except as a tool to justify such privilege, but the need for a kinder afterlife among the strugglers and suffering strikes me as pretty rational.

I dont mind what people do with themselves. If i dont believe in the designated gods, I cant go out and cull christians or muslims just because i think they're wrong. But I dont know if that freedom of individual thought extends to children, who invariably get beliefs imposed on them.

On the other point, I can see some academics in the US showing some independence. I've also seen that people who provide funding to colleges want their point of view to carry the day and this situation was in place unchallenged until 7 months ago, and it's taken a struggle by a small group of students to demonstrate that free thinking is tightly channelled at US unis.

As for justice, just let them live.

 

[Markfs]

a genocide triggered by those being wiped out....i'd be hauled before a court if i used that argument in other circumstances.

 

[JB1975]

What is the alternative? Continue to let Israel be attacked? Invite Hezbollah to the party as well? This is not a war that Israel wants nor started.

That decision was made for Israel. Not by Israel.

All of what you write is self-serving nonsense, but let me address a fragment.

Netanyahu facilitated the funding and empowerment of Hamas at the expense of the PA. He wanted to create a threat in order to justify it elimination, except that everyone knows that you can't surgically remove an organisation like Hamas from Gaza.

In other words, Israel created a situation which would 'necessitate' the slaughter of thousands.

--------------------------------------------

But of course, Israel is not responsible. What can it do? It's simply the occupier and subjugator of Gaza with a guaranteed line on the best tech, intelligence and military equipment from the US.

I've got some further insight for you. The fact of some resistance in the form of sporadic rocket fire does not justify a genocide. Anyone who thinks otherwise has completely lost their moral bearings.

 

[Markfs]

I just watched a youtube video on the USS Liberty that was attacked by israel in 1967. Interesting background about AIPAc's involvement and how US senators took the side of Israel.....it seems that it was the start of the US policy of allowing israel to get away with anything and still get funded...

 

[ZEV]

All of what you write is self-serving nonsense, but let me address a fragment.

Netanyahu facilitated the funding and empowerment of Hamas at the expense of the PA. He wanted to create a threat in order to justify it elimination, except that everyone knows that you can't surgically remove an organisation like Hamas from Gaza.

In other words, Israel created a situation which would 'necessitate' the slaughter of thousands.

--------------------------------------------

But of course, Israel is not responsible. What can it do? It's simply the occupier and subjugator of Gaza with a guaranteed line on the best tech, intelligence and military equipment from the US.

I've got some further insight for you. The fact of some resistance in the form of sporadic rocket fire does not justify a genocide. Anyone who thinks otherwise has completely lost their moral bearings.

Wow. At this point I have no words.

JB, at this point this is nothing more than deranged rambling.

 

[gouki88]

Wow. At this point I have no words.

JB, at this point this is nothing more than deranged rambling.

How so? Highlight the parts that are "deranged" please

 

[JB1975]

Wow. At this point I have no words.

JB, at this point this is nothing more than deranged rambling.

The situation and my post deserve more than a contrived 'wow', but maybe you don't have a lot more to say.

My points about Netanyahu's policies towards Hamas and the marginalisation of the PA are matters of public record, and you would know that they've been articulated by former Israel PM Ehud Barak and high-ranking members of Israeli intelligence.

Maybe we shouldn't place too much trust in those guys given the extraordinary intelligence failure of October 7, but there are plenty of other sources for the same information.

--------------------------------------------------

My other point was an ethical one. Maybe that was the reason it's been so easily dismissed as 'deranged'?

I suggested that sporadic rocket fire from the enemy doesn't justify a genocide, as well as saying that Israel might have more options than a crushing campaign to blast thousands of children into fragments.

A pretty simple point from a pretty simple British commentator actually sums up the situation well. The British didn't bomb the Catholic areas of Belfast to dig out the IRA and its supporters, or launch a military campaign against Belfast, or against those parts of the Irish Republic which aided the northern republicans.

The comparison isn't a perfect one, but the principle of proportion stands well enough. The nature of the threat was serious, but not sufficient to justify an action which would kill hundreds or thousands of innocent people.

No such compunction from Israel.

---------------------------------------------------

I think you know that what I write isn't deranged rambling. Such a response is as poor as a post from vindaloo, and it certainly indicates a lack of good faith in the discussion.

 

[petrie pie]

The situation and my post deserve more than a contrived 'wow', but maybe you don't have a lot more to say.

My points about Netanyahu's policies towards Hamas and the marginalisation of the PA are matters of public record, and you would know that they've been articulated by former Israel PM Ehud Barak and high-ranking members of Israeli intelligence.

Maybe we shouldn't place too much trust in those guys given the extraordinary intelligence failure of October 7, but there are plenty of other sources for the same information.

--------------------------------------------------

My other point was an ethical one. Maybe that was the reason it's been so easily dismissed as 'deranged'?

I suggested that sporadic rocket fire from the enemy doesn't justify a genocide, as well as saying that Israel might have more options than a crushing campaign to blast thousands of children into fragments.

A pretty simple point from a pretty simple British commentator actually sums up the situation well. The British didn't bomb the Catholic areas of Belfast to dig out the IRA and its supporters, or launch a military campaign against Belfast, or against those parts of the Irish Republic which aided the northern republicans.

The comparison isn't a perfect one, but the principle of proportion stands well enough. The nature of the threat was serious, but not sufficient to justify an action which would kill hundreds or thousands of innocent people.

No such compunction from Israel.

---------------------------------------------------

I think you know that what I write isn't deranged rambling. Such a response is as poor as a post from vindaloo, and it certainly indicates a lack of good faith in the discussion.

You have forgive the pro Israeli folks in this thread as it is getting harder and harder to justify the Israeli actions in this Genocidal attacks on Palestinians. There is not much doubt now that this has been their intention from oct 7 and they and their moral army are part of a rogue state now.

I think they have lost the support of the masses worldwide even in the USA amongst the under 40,s and it is hard to see them ever regaining it with action,s like the most recent one,s becoming more prevalent.

 

[Markfs]

You have forgive the pro Israeli folks in this thread as it is getting harder and harder to justify the Israeli actions in this Genocidal attacks on Palestinians. There is not much doubt now that this has been their intention from oct 7 and they and their moral army are part of a rogue state now.

I think they have lost the support of the masses worldwide even in the USA amongst the under 40,s and it is hard to see them ever regaining it with action,s like the most recent one,s becoming more prevalent.

The people who make the decisions in the US are still in the back pocket....the evangelicals are still funding....the arms from the US are still flowing.....the masses dont matter that much...things have been rocky before and the march to the promised land has gone ahead. I'm confident that israel will still be able to acquire the twin prize of getting rid of the palestinians and getting to the promised land.

 

[Markfs]

israeli will investigate the murders of the palestinians iiving in tents....right after they start investigating the murders of the aid workers....remember them?.. israel has yet to give access to australia's appointed investigator....remember him?

 

[JB1975]

It must be time for another letter from six former Australian PMs.



The current lost his credibility on questions of Israel and Gaza quite some time ago, if he ever had it. The notion that Gillard or any other of the rotation of mediocrities have anything to teach Australians about the issue is absurd.