Altitude training thoughts

[blaze036]

We have our Alter-G machines in the altitude room (aerobic training machines intended to be used by players recovering from injury).

Those are intended to provide a gravity free environment to aid in rehabilitation though, slightly different to altitude training.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Those are intended to provide a gravity free environment to aid in rehabilitation though, slightly different to altitude training.

Indeed.

So why would they be located in the altitude room?

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Did you feel the effects of training at altiude?
How long did it last?

Till around June! Felt like my endurance when running was a lot better but not necessarily strength

 

[jmac70]

I went to Peru a few years ago. The altitiude worked wonders at various cusco bars.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

I went to Peru a few years ago. The altitiude worked wonders at various cusco bars.

I kept getting nosebleeds. Not sure it was from the altitude though...

 

[ipswichpies]

I was being a little flippant with my "Bends" remark but I am sure that altitude helps speed recovery on soft tissue injuries.

 

[DWil6]

At the end of the day the altitude training may or may not have a significant benefit. But our levels of fitness in multiple seasons at he pointy end of the year was underwhelming. I have no beef with the team staying home and changing it up. It's an expensive exercise regardless of the extra cash bought in, it is unproven in regards to our results. As others have said, we need to get the other 99% of our game right before we worry about the potential 1-5% possible benefit that we can probably get from the altitude room anyway.


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[jmac70]

At the end of the day the altitude training may or may not have a significant benefit. But our levels of fitness in multiple seasons at he pointy end of the year was underwhelming. I have no beef with the team staying home and changing it up. It's an expensive exercise regardless of the extra cash bought in, it is unproven in regards to our results. As others have said, we need to get the other 99% of our game right before we worry about the potential 1-5% possible benefit that we can probably get from the altitude room anyway.


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I am sure I read somewhere that Collingwood have produced some sort of paper on the benefits of altitude training.

 

[dansa]

I guess you just trust the experts on these matters but during the years we traveled to Arizona we never appeared to be fitter than the other clubs. If it does work, it's not obvious.

 

[76woodenspooners]

It's an expensive exercise ...

I don't think it would be very expensive.

We have an airline as a major sponsor.

The club has its own travel agency inhouse.

Living is quite cheap in this part of the world. I'm staying in a self contained suite in a four star hotel for only $69 a night. Players twin share so it'll be even cheaper. Food is cheap. The club will probably have to pay for rental of facilities, but can't imagine that being crazy expensive. There'll be a few bus charters around the place but again that shouldn't be too expensive. (the shuttle bus from Phoenix airport to where i am, around 100 miles away is $25)

I'd guess costs would be around $5,000 each for around 60 people (players, coaches, media, paying supporters) which would put it around $300,000 total.

Can we think of anything better to spend that $300K on? (Apart from jmac70 's member's bar of course )

Especially given that we've generated $10M and $7 million profit over the last two seasons?

 

[Magpie Girl]

I don't think it would be very expensive.
I'd guess costs would be around $5,000 each for around 60 people (players, coaches, media, paying supporters) which would put it around $300,000 total.
Can we think of anything better to spend that $300K on? (Apart from jmac70 's member's bar of course )
Especially given that we've generated $10M and $7 million profit over the last two seasons?

Well, if this is the case, then the expense involved is not the reason they've decided not to go.

Therefore they have either opted out because
a) they are monitoring the change in the fitness of the players - especially as quite a few have been to several camps
or
b) they don't think it's necessary because they have an altitude room and any, or all, of the perceived benefits can be got this way

 

[jathanas]

Fair points both.

I'll especially second the point about upgrades and ongoing investment into our own altitude facilities.

Could the CFC have developed enough knowledge about altitude training, that they could achieve most of the proven accumulative benefits without the players having to leave Melbourne? Maybe this is a year where they put this to the test... Eddie had stated the club will continue to develop I.P...

I'll further add that the logistics of travelling for altitude training in a transitional year like this (many new ins & many outs) might possibly be a little more challenging. We're a very young side now, that needs to be taken into account.

Well, if this is the case, then the expense involved is not the reason they've decided not to go.

Therefore they have either opted out because
a) they are monitoring the change in the fitness of the players - especially as quite a few have been to several camps
or
b) they don't think it's necessary because they have an altitude room and any, or all, of the perceived benefits can be got this way

 

[piedpiper32]

I don't think it would be very expensive.

I'd guess costs would be around $5,000 each for around 60 people (players, coaches, media, paying supporters) which would put it around $300,000 total.

Can we think of anything better to spend that $300K on? (Apart from jmac70 's member's bar of course )

Especially given that we've generated $10M and $7 million profit over the last two seasons?

A recent article that relates to this thread: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-11-20/high-altitude-low-benefit
Here are my summary of the main points:

- Overseas ventures can cost a club as much as $850,000.
Given that we are one of the clubs that usually spares no expense I would assume our costs would be at the high end. Our net operating profit for FY 31 Oct 2013 was $5.225 million. Going on a camp would therefore have reduced our net profit by over 16%. As the article points out $850,000 can get you a lot of extra coaching, skills development, etc. The club employing a kicking coach (Nathan Chapman) this year is probably just one example of where they feel the money saved could be better used and I have to agree given our mediocre skills.

- Collingwood published a study that showed players' running performance at sea level improved by 1-2%, however the results were short-lived.
This goes back to my earlier post about the benefits of these altitude camps being only short-term. The article goes on to say that the benefits may only last for four weeks. It is interesting that the club built the altitude room after going on several of these camps. My guess is that they had the same issue where they could see the benefits of altitude training, but as these camps were held months before the start of the season the benefits were not flowing through to the actual games. Any casual observer could see that our fitness levels were not at the elite end of the league. The club's solution was then to have their own altitude room which could be used all season. As I said before it should be exciting to see if this facility can allow us to sustain that extra improvement for the entire season and allow us to run out games better than the opposition. To be fair though the article's expert Dr. Gillam also says that altitude chambers may be ineffective as players would have to remain at altitude for 14-16 hours a day for a total of 300 hours to get the benefits. I guess this season will be a great experiment to prove or disprove this theory.

- There was no scientific evidence to support the belief that altitude training enabled the players to train harder on return.
Collingwood have certainly not published anything to support this although it is noted they may want to keep this information in-house. If it did allow the players to come back and train harder in any meaningful way that then translated to performance in the regular season I am sure the club would have sent everyone away on another camp, then come back to use the altitude room. The fact they didn't says a lot.

- Brisbane, Carlton, Gold Coast, St Kilda, Essendon, Western Bulldogs, and North Melbourne have all organised altitude camps this preseason.
Very interesting that of last year's top 8 only one club (Carlton... or Essendon if you see it that way ) is going on one of these (Port chose Dubai's heat over altitude).

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-11-20/high-altitude-low-benefit

 

[speedytiger]

Such a difficult thing to measure from our point of view. If we get overrun in a last quarter it may have nothing to do with fitness. Injuries, mental weakness, lack of belief all can have a side drop off towards the end of a game.

I guess if it happens consistently we can judge but in all honesty if the experts are split on this, how are we supposed to have a clue?

 

[DWil6]

I don't think it would be very expensive.

We have an airline as a major sponsor.

The club has its own travel agency inhouse.

Living is quite cheap in this part of the world. I'm staying in a self contained suite in a four star hotel for only $69 a night. Players twin share so it'll be even cheaper. Food is cheap. The club will probably have to pay for rental of facilities, but can't imagine that being crazy expensive. There'll be a few bus charters around the place but again that shouldn't be too expensive. (the shuttle bus from Phoenix airport to where i am, around 100 miles away is $25)

I'd guess costs would be around $5,000 each for around 60 people (players, coaches, media, paying supporters) which would put it around $300,000 total.

Can we think of anything better to spend that $300K on? (Apart from jmac70 's member's bar of course )

Especially given that we've generated $10M and $7 million profit over the last two seasons?

No question the club would have gone if they honestly believed that It was financially worthwhile and physically worthwhile. It clearly appears they don't. Our opinions on its value would seem to agree with their actions on the subject.


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[jathanas]

Such a difficult thing to measure from our point of view. If we get overrun in a last quarter it may have nothing to do with fitness. Injuries, mental weakness, lack of belief all can have a side drop off towards the end of a game.

I guess if it happens consistently we can judge but in all honesty if the experts are split on this, how are we supposed to have a clue?

I couldn't agree more. Finishing a game strong is as much between the ears as it is about preparation and training.

I've never played football at a high level but have competed in mountain bike racing for years. At the pointy end of the field all the athletes are born with the right genes, and they do shit-loads of hard training. They all hurt during competition but the ones that consistently do well just seem to be able to push themselves a little harder. Winning an 100km race by a few seconds is not simply b/c of physical superiority. Likewise having the toughness to finish a game of footy strongly is not just training. Physically, it will never be easy.

 

[jonbe54]

I couldn't agree more. Finishing a game strong is as much between the ears as it is about preparation and training.

I've never played football at a high level but have competed in mountain bike racing for years. At the pointy end of the field all the athletes are born with the right genes, and they do shit-loads of hard training. They all hurt during competition but the ones that consistently do well just seem to be able to push themselves a little harder. Winning an 100km race by a few seconds is not simply b/c of physical superiority. Likewise having the toughness to finish a game of footy strongly is not just training. Physically, it will never be easy.

Pretty much the same with my veladrom sprinting races as a young man - coming up to that last bank you're in oxygen debt if you timed your final sprint right and its a little harder to focus for that final lunge downbank at the end of the curve. By the time you straighten up for that final insane charge your heart is almost literally in your mouth and everything is screaming at you to stop. THAT'S when you have to lift your output and SPRINT with everything you can bring to bear.

When the crunch comes it's not how big a body you have but how big a man you are where it counts - in the ticker and the heart.

Willpower and courage is demanded and those who wilt never know the exhilaration of conquering self before competitors - that's the real challenge.

 

[jathanas]

Pretty much the same with my veladrom sprinting races as a young man - coming up to that last bank you're in oxygen debt if you timed your final sprint right and its a little harder to focus for that final lunge downbank at the end of the curve. By the time you straighten up for that final insane charge your heart is almost literally in your mouth and everything is screaming at you to stop. THAT'S when you have to lift your output and SPRINT with everything you can bring to bear.

When the crunch comes it's not how big a body you have but how big a man you are where it counts - in the ticker and the heart.

Willpower and courage is demanded and those who wilt never know the exhilaration of conquering self before competitors - that's the real challenge.

Heart rate > 95% of max, lactic acid burning those muscles up, you get that last effort in for the final sprint and then when its all over... the nausea coupled with the flashing spots in the peripheral vision!

I'm not sure how altitude training can teach someone how to subject themselves to that level of exertion regularly... So yes, training is as much about developing mental toughness...

My view on those long hikes in freezing conditions that the team did whilst abroad in previous years was about building strength between the ears... You don't need to board a jet to develop that...

 

[jonbe54]

Heart rate > 95% of max, lactic acid burning those muscles up, you get that last effort in for the final sprint and then when its all over... the nausea coupled with the flashing spots in the peripheral vision!

I'm not sure how altitude training can teach someone how to subject themselves to that level of exertion regularly... So yes, training is as much about developing mental toughness...

My view on those long hikes in freezing conditions that the team did whilst abroad in previous years was about building strength between the ears... You don't need to board a jet to develop that...

Agree jathanas, can remember any number of times after finishing practically falling off my machine and quite literally reeling like a drunkard towards the infield unable to see clearly through mists of bright motes and burning sweat in my eyes. Plonking down prone next to my team mates and having our trainer work on rehydrating us and easing the cramps. For those first few stressed seconds if the finish was close you don't really care too much about the result, just intent on getting oxygen levels up to somewhere near nominal.

It's a helluva feeling

 

[Hinequarters]

I wonder if our ancestors had to push themselves like that when on the hunt.. I bet there were no short steps or lazy trainers back then when you and your families lives were on the line

 

[76woodenspooners]

No question the club would have gone if they honestly believed that It was financially worthwhile...

I'd doubt if money would have even been a factor.

Pretty sure if Bucks went to Perty and asked "Hey I want a sack of cash to take the lads altitude training" the answer would have been "Sure!"

Not suggesting we waste cash, but these days altitude training is hardly an exotic request that needs to be justified to the bean counters of a highly profitable footy club.

...and physically worthwhile.

Yeah, that's probably key.

...It clearly appears they don't. Our opinions on its value would seem to agree with their actions on the subject.

Or it might have been due to us not having a fitness coach at the time

 

[jathanas]

I wonder if our ancestors had to push themselves like that when on the hunt.. I bet there were no short steps or lazy trainers back then when you and your families lives were on the line

If the only possible outcomes are "live or die", or "eat or starve", most people would be able to find that extra yard of pace. We don't really face those choices too regularly these days...

 

[Obese Arachnid]

If the only possible outcomes are "live or die", or "eat or starve", most people would be able to find that extra yard of pace. We don't really face those choices too regularly these days...

That's easy for you to say, you don't live in Thomastown.

 

[jathanas]

That's easy for you to say, you don't live in Thomastown.

I clicked "Like" but only because there's no "Love" button.

P.S: I worked in 3074 for 5 years in the 90s.

 

[jonbe54]

If the only possible outcomes are "live or die", or "eat or starve", most people would be able to find that extra yard of pace. We don't really face those choices too regularly these days...

Our country was started partly on the consequences of 'live or die', draconian legislation in old England saw fathers and mothers transported out here for stealing food to keep their children alive