Angus "Goose" Graham

[dothebowdenshuffle]

ruckmen i would take in front of graham. griffen, maric, moran, tippett. charman, leuenberger, mcculloch, bellchambers, hille, laycock, ryder,jacobs, kruezer, warnock, hampson, jolly, fraser wood, sandilands, clarke, bradley, ottens simpson west blake, renouf,taylor bailey.jamar johnson,goldstein, hale mcintosh, petrie brogan, redden, seasby, mumford, king, gardiner, mcevoy, cox, naitanui, sullivan, hudson minson roughhead,

thats most ruckmen who have had a game or i have seen play.many are below standard many young, many rated as spuds by many on here yet i would take the lot of em before graham.

it should not be hard for us to upgrade on angus and do it cheaply.

I'd take Gus ahead of every player bolded above and rate him on a par with several others such as Simpson/Blake (Geel), Bellchambers (Ess), Moran (Ade), Charman (Bris), Minson (WB) and possibly several others. That puts Gus around middle of the road with other AFL ruckmen after ~20 games. Sure, he still has plenty to prove - last weeks effort alone will get him at least a couple of further opportunities and I'm looking forward to seeing what he makes of it.

 

[Madtiger2006]

lol like i said mired in mediocrity should add deluded and blinkered as well.

please tell me which half of those named he is better than. theres plenty named who have not played many games. but already have shown they have better tools to work with.. now that would not be hard as just about every player on an afl list would have better skills.

just goes to show how bitter you are when it comes to opposition players, there is no objectivity and all and sundry are worse than our players. yet you put rfc duds on pedestals on a regular basis. how many games have those duds managed to win in recent yrs .

hmm blake yep widely regarded by many as a dud. yet hes easily a higher standard of dud than both graham and simmonds. he had a lazy 20 possesions on the weekend and won more than his fair share of ruck knocks.
and hes carrying their ruck atm.
sheesh young dawson simpson only had a couple of games looked okay to me showed more than graham has ever done.

its funny you defend all players at the club well nearly all. and you have done for yrs.yet how many wins have we on the board this yr and in yrs gone by.

piss poor sides regularly have gone below us bottomed out turned over the below standard players and then shot straight back past us again.they do this while you hang onto all those mediocre players you seem to think the world of so much.

angus graham is a dud no buts no bones about it he is easily the worst ruckman mentioned so far on this thread.
you want to get of the bottom of the ladder you want to make top 4 at some stage in the future well you can bet your bottom dollar it wont happen with abysmal players like graham on the list.

sheesh i dont get it with you. havent you seen enough of mediocre players at richmond over the yrs to recognise a dud when you see one.obviously not. if you had your way we would hang onto nearly every player on the list mate there stupidity and then theres stupidity.
im not sure if your like peter sasengum posting for attention or you really are just plain stupid. either way its really not worth the effort.

If Graham played for another club you'd say he looked promising. No doubt about it . I rate our list like most people would. Waiting for a mild cleanout of half a dozen players. Btw, you're a an absolute fool

 

[Goldust]

I'd take Gus ahead of every player bolded above and rate him on a par with several others such as Simpson/Blake (Geel), Bellchambers (Ess), Moran (Ade), Charman (Bris), Minson (WB) and possibly several others. That puts Gus around middle of the road with other AFL ruckmen after ~20 games. Sure, he still has plenty to prove - last weeks effort alone will get him at least a couple of further opportunities and I'm looking forward to seeing what he makes of it.

WE all know Santa is right ... mired in mediocrity.
It's mostly the same people who have continually overrated the likes of Dean Polo, Kelvin Moore, Daniel Jackson and those departed like Jay Schulz and Kayne Pettifer (who Richo prevented from being a gun player) who are now pumping up Graham.
While the rest of us sit back and see the reality of our team being 0-8 and don't need to question why!!!

 

[Goldust]

If Graham played for another club you'd say he looked promising. No doubt about it . I rate our list like most people would. Waiting for a mild cleanout of half a dozen players. Btw, you're a an absolute fool

HE'S the equivalent of Laycock, or Kepler Bradley ... a guy by virtue of height will remain on an AFL list longer than a guy of better ability, yet smaller in stature!!

 

[Madtiger2006]

HE'S the equivalent of Laycock, or Kepler Bradley ... a guy by virtue of height will remain on an AFL list longer than a guy of better ability, yet smaller in stature!!

That's just a complete guess

 

[aRT8t]

How can you rate charman before Angus, has he played for the lions this season? I'm sure he only played about 8 last year. Maric is not better than Angus, Tippet would be lucky to be in the ruck more than twice a game, how can Adelaide's ruckmen be any better than ours?
Darren Jolly is gone, fraser is hanging on barely, wood's is recycled from lions due to too many ruckmen there lucky to get him.
Angus has done some good yes he could be better but by the end of the season i think he will be more of an AFL player.

Originally Posted by santa claws
ruckmen i would take in front of graham. griffen, maric, moran, tippett. charman, leuenberger, mcculloch, bellchambers, hille, laycock, ryder,jacobs, kruezer, warnock, hampson, jolly, fraser wood, sandilands, clarke, bradley, ottens simpson west blake, renouf,taylor bailey.jamar johnson,goldstein, hale mcintosh, petrie brogan, redden, seasby, mumford, king, gardiner, mcevoy, cox, naitanui, sullivan, hudson minson roughhead,

thats most ruckmen who have had a game or i have seen play.many are below standard many young, many rated as spuds by many on here yet i would take the lot of em before graham.

it should not be hard for us to upgrade on angus and do it cheaply.

 

[Goldust]

That's just a complete guess

YOU obviously don't watch too much football outside Richmond games.
I'd watch three or four games a week minimimum.
When I was living in Melbourne until recently, I went to three games a weekend most weeks. I feel qualified to speak on opposition clubs as I do see them often.
I implore you to watch a few more games a week and you'll clearly come to realise why we are winless and that the majority of clubs even mid-range players are better than ours and that our newcomers and second year players are only the equivalent of most other clubs.
2008 draft for us yielded Vickery, Post, Thomson, Hislop, Cousins. Plenty of clubs did better!!!
Sadly, while yu and others live in denial, we've only gotten close to one team this year - and that is a team that is struggling every bit as much as we are!!

 

[Madtiger2006]

YOU obviously don't watch too much football outside Richmond games.
I'd watch three or four games a week minimimum.
When I was living in Melbourne until recently, I went to three games a weekend most weeks. I feel qualified to speak on opposition clubs as I do see them often.
I implore you to watch a few more games a week and you'll clearly come to realise why we are winless and that the majority of clubs even mid-range players are better than ours and that our newcomers and second year players are only the equivalent of most other clubs.
2008 draft for us yielded Vickery, Post, Thomson, Hislop, Cousins. Plenty of clubs did better!!!
Sadly, while yu and others live in denial, we've only gotten close to one team this year - and that is a team that is struggling every bit as much as we are!!

I watch at least 3 games a week so I'm qualified
You don't think lack of experience has anything to do with it or you not in tune with things eg. media, opposition supporters?

 

[Truetiger]

I watch at least 3 games a week so I'm qualified
You don't think lack of experience has anything to do with it?

Watching 3 games a week on tv does not count. I watch 3 games live at the ground 3-4 times a week. I have more right to have a say then you . Laycock on Grahams level.

 

[santa claws]

If Graham played for another club you'd say he looked promising. No doubt about it . I rate our list like most people would. Waiting for a mild cleanout of half a dozen players. Btw, you're a an absolute fool

lol if he played for another club i would likely make no comment on him. but if asked to rate him would say exactly what i have said. unlike you i actually look at a players strengths and weaknesses when assessing them i then couple these things with performance. grahams rating is dirctly linked to his weaknesses and thus how they affect his performance. because of his many weaknesses i can confidently say hes a dud. and i can confidently rate him very lowly against his ruckmen peers.

you dont rate players mad one i would be surprised if you knew what the word meant and what it entails.
assuming to know how one thinks is a pretty lame way to debate a point,and blind faith is not a rating madone its called stupidity.

 

[Madtiger2006]

lol if he played for another club i would likely make no comment on him. but if asked to rate him would say exactly what i have said. unlike you i actually look at a players strengths and weaknesses when assessing them i then couple these things with performance. grahams rating is dirctly linked to his weaknesses and thus how they affect his performance. because of his many weaknesses i can confidently say hes a dud. and i can confidently rate him very lowly against his ruckmen peers.

you dont rate players mad one i would be surprised if you knew what the word meant and what it entails.
assuming to know how one thinks is a pretty lame way to debate a point,and blind faith is not a rating madone its called stupidity.

Of course i look at strengths/weaknesses. I look at them and have faith they will improve. You ignore strengths and focus on weaknesses and completely write them off after about 10 games. That's arrogant and bloody annoying. Do you expect every player to be almost elite in all areas of the game? All players play a specific role in the team. Btw, Blake was averaging about 3 possessions in his first 6 or 7 games this year

 

[Dr Tigris]

My 2 cents worth.

From what I have seen Gus' best is a decent B grade AFL ruck, nothing to complain about. His average is not really AFL standard.

To my mind his supporters see that he can make his current best his future average, and his detractors see his average and say that's it.

I'm in both camps - he looks fairly OK, not great but OK. Then he plays crap - and I think he won't make it.

But rucks are notorious for taking a long time. He obviously has the strengths to play AFL, but only just. IMHO if he makes the most out of his talent he will be a good second ruck. We want better than that, but a decent second ruck is better than what we currently have - bugger all in the ruck. Give him 2-3 years to show continuous improvement. If he can't improve cut/trade him. If TV and Browne become good he's toast. TV I like talent wise, just needs many more kilos, Browne I don't know - what's happened to him?

 

[Tiger_Stripes]

Kayne Pettifer (who Richo prevented from being a gun player)

Sad really, I rated him, only reason we didn't keep him/he wasn't picked up is I believe he completely ruined his knee when he blew it. Saw him going into to our first game (good effort eh) with his partner (who was stunning) and, at best, he was hobbling. Saw me smiling at him and gave me a big grin back, seems a top bloke.

 

[coke_zero]

IMHO if he makes the most out of his talent he will be a good second ruck.

if he is going to stay at richmond he is going to need to be more than a second ruck. taking 50% minimum then the rest in the forward line kicking 1-2 goals a game would be good.

 

[CoggaRules]

WE all know Santa is right ... mired in mediocrity.
It's mostly the same people who have continually overrated the likes of Dean Polo, Kelvin Moore, Daniel Jackson and those departed like Jay Schulz and Kayne Pettifer (who Richo prevented from being a gun player) who are now pumping up Graham.
While the rest of us sit back and see the reality of our team being 0-8 and don't need to question why!!!

with all due respect Goldie, you kinda miss one important point. Yes we are 0-8 and yes there alot here who understand reality, BUT, we got to 0-7 and 40 something %, with our seasoned "experienced" ruckman, and with the inclusion of Gus in his place, went to within 3 points of beating the dawks in what for them was ****ing do or die. Now if you can honestly suggest that you didnt see a monumental improvement in what Gus produced last week, to what we have been accustomed to over his previous games, then sorry dude, you are just to stuck in your rut and just want to defend your stance for the sake of defending it. The Jackkos and Petrifieds etc of this world i can agree on you, but this kid is massivve and in the end, SIZE matters, ask Sandilands.
Like we all know, the kid is a fuicking big unit, the FACT that he was pulling down grabs in the FL means one important thing to the opposition from now on, he has to be be accounted for. Thats how JR automagically nabs a bag and has the impact we know he can, if tall help was there. The end.

 

[SA TIGER]

Young Angus must be given the opportunity to play for the remainder of this season alongside Vickery, with Simmonds on standby for Coburg. I've seen enough of Simmonds this season to wish him a joyous retirement in the VFL!

 

[santa claws]

Young Angus must be given the opportunity to play for the remainder of this season alongside Vickery, with Simmonds on standby for Coburg. I've seen enough of Simmonds this season to wish him a joyous retirement in the VFL!

if you had said young andrew browne needs at least a block of games i would have gone along.

hmm young gus. please tell what attributes does he have that says must play for the rest of yr and thus hopefully must keep. we dont have the luxury of putting all our eggs in one basket.

every single attribute/weakness is screaming delist asap.

 

[coke_zero]

if you had said young andrew browne needs at least a block of games i would have gone along.

hmm young gus. please tell what attributes does he have that says must play for the rest of yr and thus hopefully must keep. we dont have the luxury of putting all our eggs in one basket.

every single attribute/weakness is screaming delist asap.

yes we should give Browne a go, but Gus is our best ruckmen atm, and he is doing more around the ground than Vickery and Simmonds.

 

[SA TIGER]

if you had said young andrew browne needs at least a block of games i would have gone along.

hmm young gus. please tell what attributes does he have that says must play for the rest of yr and thus hopefully must keep. we dont have the luxury of putting all our eggs in one basket.

every single attribute/weakness is screaming delist asap.

As a 23yo, 201cm and 100kg with only 19 games played in three seasons, he should be given the opportunity to lead our ruck division for the remainder of 2010. In saying that, I sincerely hope Browne's ablility improves in the short term to keep both Angus and Ty on their toes.
Not sure what you mean by 'every single attribute screams delist' when he has already shown glimpses of being a serviceable player, even when rested in forward line and surprisingly, slightly ahead of Simmonds in average hit outs per game. Delist? Pigs a$$!

 

[Rayzorwire]

Not sure what you mean by 'every single attribute screams delist'...

Means santa's been bagging the kid for years and won't admit he's got even a tiny shred of potential until he's played 50+ similarly good games, at which point he *might* promote him to 'awful list clogger' - with Jackson and Tuck.

 

[Goldust]

with all due respect Goldie, you kinda miss one important point. Yes we are 0-8 and yes there alot here who understand reality, BUT, we got to 0-7 and 40 something %, with our seasoned "experienced" ruckman, and with the inclusion of Gus in his place, went to within 3 points of beating the dawks in what for them was ****ing do or die. Now if you can honestly suggest that you didnt see a monumental improvement in what Gus produced last week, to what we have been accustomed to over his previous games, then sorry dude, you are just to stuck in your rut and just want to defend your stance for the sake of defending it. The Jackkos and Petrifieds etc of this world i can agree on you, but this kid is massivve and in the end, SIZE matters, ask Sandilands.
Like we all know, the kid is a fuicking big unit, the FACT that he was pulling down grabs in the FL means one important thing to the opposition from now on, he has to be be accounted for. Thats how JR automagically nabs a bag and has the impact we know he can, if tall help was there. The end.

Cogga, think I have stated on here - or perhaps on another thread - that I thought it was 'Gus'' best game, period!!! Albeit coming off a low base, there was substantial improvement - at least last week. Better indication will come tomorrow. The Hawks' rucks woes are well documented - probably more so then the Tigers' overall woes.
Think I also said that I thought he did his best work down forward as opposed to the ruck. Gus actually looked menacing at times and I'd be sticking him there alongside Jack who is crying out for some relief at the risk of being run into the ground.
The grabs he pulled down in the forward line were not unnoticed ... hope he can take confidence from that and dod it around the ground.
Won't hold out hope, but at least it's a start - and as I say, the old Graham returns this week than it's pointless.
Any tall kid - let alone a ruckman - could smash the likes the Hawks are tossing up each week.
Skipper

 

[santa claws]

Means santa's been bagging the kid for years and won't admit he's got even a tiny shred of potential until he's played 50+ similarly good games, at which point he *might* promote him to 'awful list clogger' - with Jackson and Tuck.

no it means hes slow as, has no agility to speak of, doesnt jump, has no strength is not good in the air and is almost totally lacking in basic skills.

just like you ray to back in the nohopers. im into him because i believe he has no potential to be a bona fide AFL PLAYER.. NO OTHER REASON. .strengths weakness and performance are exactly what i rate all our players on it never changes. ya know what when it comes to our own its held me in good stead.

And i was one who wanted us to give him a go thru the rookie system. unfortunately for us and him hes shown hes not up to standard just too many weaknesses. it really is that simple.

as for tuck well its pretty common knowledge hes been a favorite of mine but it does not exclude him from criticism. and for sure and certain i know we should be looking for an upgrade on him but still, hes one ive been prepared to tolerate the weaknesses because of what he does bring to the table. the trouble is how many tucks can you take into games. hardwick has said it himself we lack polish. its not one or two lacking polish but half the team.

jackson another totally glass half full player . is one we need to upgrade on. the thing that saves jackson atm is the dearth of big bodied players at the club. while the tucks and jacksons and many others are our best 22 we will always remain mediocre. in saying this yep jacko has been okay in games this yr. but you just know hes going to kill us to often.

anyway you defend them you always do but when it comes to most players leopards do not change their spots. it has been shown to be the case the vast majority of times.

 

[Rayzorwire]

no it means hes slow as, has no agility to speak of, doesnt jump, has no strength is not good in the air and is almost totally lacking in basic skills.

His pace and agility are fine for a ruckman, he's shown plenty of strength for his age, he can take a grab up forward or at least bring the ball to ground, he knows how to palm to advantage, his kicking and handball are by no means at elite level for a ruckman, but they're a long way from ruckman horrible too.

Perhaps most impressive in his game last week was the fact that he got better as the game wore on - he dominated the ruck in the last quarter when the match was there to be won.

He's shown more than enough for his age to be considered a decent long term prospect. At absolute worst he'll be a bloody good 3rd ruckman when he's fully mature and seasoned. I suspect he'll do a bit better than that.

just like you ray to back in the nohopers.

I don't 'back in no-hopers' santa, the blokes I've bothered defending on a sustained basis are still in the side, bar Ray Hall, and you know he'd still be playing seniors for us if he hadn't been forced into early retirement due to injury.

I've never argued any of them were champions (regardless of how many times I've been accused by you and others of doing so), just hard, honest players that are/were comfortably inside our best-22 and would get games at many, if not all clubs.

My opinion has been vindicated with all of them so far, I expect Graham to turn out a more than passable ruckman.

 

[Azzleberry]

if you had said young gus graham needs at least a block of games i would have gone along.

hmm young andrew browne. please tell what attributes does he have that says must play for the rest of yr and thus hopefully must keep. we dont have the luxury of putting all our eggs in one basket.

every single attribute/weakness is screaming delist asap.

Edited for Accuracy and Reality!!!!
Anyone calling for Browne before Gus has absolutely NFI!!

 

[Goldust]

as for tuck well its pretty common knowledge hes been a favorite of mine but it does not exclude him from criticism. and for sure and certain i know we should be looking for an upgrade on him but still, hes one ive been prepared to tolerate the weaknesses because of what he does bring to the table. the trouble is how many tucks can you take into games. hardwick has said it himself we lack polish. its not one or two lacking polish but half the team.

WHEN it's all said and done, Santa, if payers emerge with more with a bit more class and polish and only a few of the hard-nuts with lesser polish remain, it's Tuck who should remain ahead of the likes of Jackson, King and others on sheer ability alone.
I'm not fooled for one minute, Tuck may have been unwanted at the trade table (likely because of what we were demanding, mind you, for a player we were willing to show the door to), but he's slot nicely into a new team if and when we delist him ... guaranteed!! Plenty of teams would like a Tuck in their team - a player who can win it 30 times and pump it down forward into a forward line filled with better talent.

Again, on 'Gus', tonight will tell plenty for those talking him up as our next big thing. That's Hille and Ryder out there, not VFL calibre Skipper and Renouf!!!

One swallow don't make a summer!!!