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Angus "Goose" Graham

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Madison said:
You can't judge Vickery at the moment. Most ruckman wouldn't be playing AFL in their second year. They would be allowed to build up the tank and size required for AFL, in the VFL. They wouldn't be thrown to the dogs like Vickery has.

He was a very good ruckman at junior level when around similar sized bodies. When he builds up his size to AFL level he will be very good.
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Totally agree with your quote. Face the facts, it will take Vickery 2-3 seasons to be taller, heavier, stronger with at least 50 games experience before we witness his successful transformation!
 
SA TIGER said:
Totally agree with your quote. Face the facts, it will take Vickery 2-3 seasons to be taller, heavier, stronger with at least 50 games experience before we witness his successful transformation!
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Spot on. Thats why he will have one or two weeks off very soon, come back and then play out the year, and repeat it all next year. Dimma said he wants 30-40 games in all the kids for 2012. Ty isnt up to it yet, thats why Simmo done the donkey work, and now Gus looks good enough to do it and gets the job. His contested possesions, 1%ers and ground work is fantastic for a big young kid his size. I reckon Ty will be an absolute gun when he fills out and can physically compete with the seasoned bods
 
All our young rucks will take huge strides in the next year or so, you watch, Gus has already shown to me that he's adding more dimensions to his game, with a full time ruck coach that can teach them more than just how to win a hit out we'll see them pushing forward a lot more and getting into the right places, just think they had Monkey for a session or 2 for years on end, development will be fast tracked.

Any way that's my theory and I'm sticking with it.:)
 

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Santa makes a good point that we get excited about a mediocre ruck. But by definition that means he is average for the AFL. Given what we've had I'm happy that our best ruck is average. If you want excellent AFL standard then see Rayzorwire's post and there are only a few really good rucks in the AFL. If we end up with an excellent ruck then great, but trashing Gus because he isn't Cox misses the point IMHO.

This year the 'experienced' squad is the one built under Miller's guidance. That squad had no balance. That we don't have at least one 25-28 year old ruck is amazing. It's not like you can't predict that Snake would get old. We've got a kid too skinny to be playing ruck (TV), a rookie just making some impact (Gus) and another rookie running around the VFL (Big Red). I don't want to blame the players for poor list management, and I reckon that underlies this thread. To some Gus is poor, well to most he is OK. That annoys those, like Santa, that want him to be better than a decent B grade. Well, sorry that's not his fault, it's the RFC's fault for not recruiting multiple rucks with decent picks in Spud's era and then in the early Wallace era.

Rant over
 
lol at some of the replies. especially rasor always has an excuse if not for himself then the plasyer he takes a liking to.
put simply angus graham is not an average afl ruckman what a joke. that people can just fob of so many ruckmen who are clearly a long way in front of him.

sheesh rasor mentions just 8 ruckmen all others are just average triers but fails to mention that most of those average triers are way in front of angus.spurious stats are just that .
wheres his upside how is he going to get past so many ruckmen to at least make us competetive in this area.
its easy to just fob of the abysmal kicking skills, the lumbering pace the lack of smarts the lack of motor or aggresion or over head ability. the almost total lack of agility. he doesnt have the attributes of so many others. attributes that says decent upside and thus improvement from mediocre to at least afl standard.
bloody hell nearly every club has young ruckmen on its list who have better attributes to work with than graham.

all i can say is we do indeed revel in mediocrity.

lets have a look at those clubs rasor thinks have elite ruckmen.
cox at wce. sheesh nic nat is already a mile in front of graham what exactly is his upside. they also have a bloke in the wafl who has more tools to work with than what graham does. when cox retires we wont catch up to them in this area not with graham.

hille at essendon. well again they have ryder who is younger and tom bellchambers who has a better upside based an the tools he has and the few games he has played. when hille retires they will still have two better ruckmen than graham.

who else was mentioned ah ottens easily blake over graham and most dont rate him. hes just another in a long line of how does rasor say it again oh yeah triers who is a mile in front of graham.simpson also looks to have more talent and ability than graham so while we persevere with graham another one will go past us.
sandilands sheesh freo have a kid whos almost a stick and will take a season or two before he plays in clarke he has all the things graham doesnt.
i thought the idea for our club was to catch up and then go past all other clubs in all areas not stay mired in mediocrity
if we dont actually raise the bar how the hell can we get better.
 
In short I was not optimistic with Graham as I too saw no upside. However, on the weekend I saw things in Graham that really pleased me:

1. Took a few good grabs, one especially from a kick-out. If he can keep taking pack marks he will be important for our teams structure.

2. I recall him in a pack situation with the ball at ground level, Gus picked it up cleanly to then dish it out. I don't think I have seen this from him and it surprised me with how clean he was below his knees.

3. An opposition player tried to break the lines, while Gus didn't complete the tackle on the player he was strong enough to create a spillage and if IIRC he picked it up cleanly again and dished it off.

These are three situations off the top of my head. If he can consistently do those in a game he may be a good ruckmen for us. Even though he may not be a Cox or Sandilands (who is) he will still be a competitive ruckmen for years to come for our side. Obviously it will be great if Browne can develop into a great tap ruckman but for now as long as Gus keeps improving he will suffice. If we do however pick up or have an opportunity to get a better ruckman then so be it but for now I am not as worried with our ruck situation due to Gus showing signs.
 
Have you ever posted anything that didn't look and read like a barrel of chook entrails fired out of a canon against a brick wall Claude?

I do sometimes forget you're so utterly clueless about ruckmen that you rated Wood a top-10 pick and droned on in your inimitable fashion about us not taking him for years (until of course, you belatedly realised he was a donkey). And here you are at it again, claiming Bellchambers has more attributes to be successful than Graham. :o

I also - foolishly - forget that anytime I try and engage you in a sensible debate, sooner or later (invariably sooner) you'll come back with a giant spambot response which doesn't get anywhere near the substance of what I posted, being simply the umpteenth time you've repeated your ridiculous, almost entirely unfounded criticisms of various players, with a double side salad of the completely frickin' irrelevant.

It's nearly as hilarious as your assertion (practically every post you've made for the last 5-6 years!) that somehow Richmond will remain mired in mediocrity because a few people saw some decent signs in a player who hadn't been a regular senior and discussed it on the internet.

Reality check Claude - our opinions aren't going to influence the club's list management...especially not your opinions.
 
Here are the stats for Sandilands Cox Hille Ottens when they were 22:
Sandilands in 2004 - 20 games 8.6 disposals 3 marks 1 tackle 23.6 hitouts
Ottens in 2002 - 20 games 13.7 disposals 5.1 marks 2 tackles 18.8 hitouts
Cox in 2003 - 19 games 11.2 disposals 3.9 marks 0.6 tackles 17.5 hitouts
Hille in 2003 - 24 games 10.9 disposals 3.2 marks 1.3 tackles 14.5 hitouts

Now compare those to Grahams stats from last year:
16 games 9.4 disposals 3.4 marks 2.9 tackles 14.2 hitouts.

Pretty decent numbers for a player who had only played 2 games previous to that season. In comparison Hille entered the season with 25 games to his name already, Sandilands had played 19, Cox had 36 and Ottens had played 79.

As for the Blake comparison, here are Blakes stats for the 07 season when he was 22:
22 games 9.5 disposals 3 marks 1.2 tackles 17.2 hitouts. Blake had also played more games (11) entering that season than Graham had and as far as I can tell none of the players mentioned above were coming off a serious ankle injury that ruined their entire previous season. From what I can see looking at the stats as well as what I've seen the last 2 weeks Graham is coming along just as well as these guys did when they were 22 and with a few games under their belts. It wasn't until they all matured into their bodies that they actually stepped up and became the ruckmen that they are today.
 
I'm pretty sure he recorded 7 tackles or something on the weekend too.

Not bad.

He hasn't played many games Santa, I don't know what you are expecting from him. Give him time.
 

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Rayzorwire said:
Have you ever posted anything that didn't look and read like a barrel of chook entrails fired out of a canon against a brick wall Claude?

I do sometimes forget you're so utterly clueless about ruckmen that you rated Wood a top-10 pick and droned on in your inimitable fashion about us not taking him for years (until of course, you belatedly realised he was a donkey). And here you are at it again, claiming Bellchambers has more attributes to be successful than Graham. :o

I also - foolishly - forget that anytime I try and engage you in a sensible debate, sooner or later (invariably sooner) you'll come back with a giant spambot response which doesn't get anywhere near the substance of what I posted, being simply the umpteenth time you've repeated your ridiculous, almost entirely unfounded criticisms of various players, with a double side salad of the completely frickin' irrelevant.

It's nearly as hilarious as your assertion (practically every post you've made for the last 5-6 years!) that somehow Richmond will remain mired in mediocrity because a few people saw some decent signs in a player who hadn't been a regular senior and discussed it on the internet.

Reality check Claude - our opinions aren't going to influence the club's list management...especially not your opinions.
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lol you truly are deluded.the only difference between you and i when it comes to our players is i have been in the main shown to be correct.

just on wood who is indeed a better player than graham but another of those triers you try to place behind graham. i wanted us to take him at pick 16 2004 instead of pattison. was critical of us taking pattison there and our failure to take a genuine young ruckman in that draft, in previous drafts, and drafts that followed. seems i got that right as well. look at the situation we are in now and here we are having this conversation. i forgot you have a penchant for rewriting history to suit.

wood who imo is better than graham and at least on a par is caned by you
heres a player who in your opinion is a dud but is better than or at the least on par with graham who in your blinkered estimation is a star. lol.

its like oh yep opposition player has to be a dud. and he may be. but then we cop oh richmond player sheesh future star lets ignore the basics. lets not be objective in our assessment. it doesnt work that way rasor surely after being bitten on the arse so many times you would have learnt this by now.

strengths and weaknesses old son backed up with performance against peers. nothing more nothing less. you should try judging players by them once in awhile you might manage to get some substance into your ramblings. you may even manage to judge a player correctly.
here you are singing his praises after the essendon game yet he was our senior ruckman and the difference between probably winning and losing was the performance of the ruckmen. in essence you are saying in time graham will be as good as hille and ryder and thus we in time can compete against them in this area in time me im saying angus will always reamain a battler who tries.
me i think the club should be aiming for two ruckmen like ryder and hille you well your happy with mediocrity.

you are entitled to judge a player as you see fit i have little doubt we will go thru 100 plus games of mainly mediocrity with graham with blinkered deluded fools like yourself singing his praises.
the simple facts are if we are to be better and go past 16 other clubs we no doubt will have to do better than the grahams of the footy world.

and ya know rasor its alright to back in kids but when they have been in a system for 4 or 7 yrs and they have done nothing you really have to stop backing them in. this is where we differ. take wood again or even angus quite prepared to give them a go but having watched them over a decent period of time have made the assesment that we must do better. you you just keep on persevering hoping for that magical cure..the halls krakouers tivendales pettifers sheesh bud you have to do better you cant back them in forever. in fact your attitude mirrors the club of the last 10 yrs and look where that has got us.

yep as a junior i liked wood but having watched him for 5 yrs would i take him now. the simple answer is no we need to do better. in rookieing graham i thought great give him an opportunity and we can assess him hes been assessed based on his perfromances how hes gone against his peers and most importantly the tools he has to work with. he comes up short.

we can do what you advocate do what we have done in the past and hang onto him for an inordinate amount of time in hope that all of a sudden he will magically improve, or we can actually try to do better and look to upgrade on him.

finally if the club in its wisdom does not think browne or vickery will be better than graham they should delist them and keep looking for something that they are sure will be better. a bit early to make that call just yet though.

im not here to get into a slanging match with you or even a debate its pointless.

when i look at graham i see a dumb lazy poorly skilled slow dinosaur whos poor above his head and lacks agility. with little scope for improvement. and yep there are other ruckmen with similar traits we have to do better than all of them.we certainly need to aim higher.

if you cant see this well who am i to criticise you.
 
santa claws said:
lol you truly are deluded.the only difference between you and i when it comes to our players is i have been in the main shown to be correct.
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And yet when asked you can't come up with these apparent many instances of me being wrong - aside from the ones you invent...or mistake something I said with something one of the other 43 people you argue across three forums with said.

santa claws said:
graham who in your blinkered estimation is a star.
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And again, you fashion my words into ludicrous strawman arguments. I'm on the record on this thread saying that at worst we'll get a capable 3rd ruckman out of him. I've also offered clear evidence that far from being the completely useless waste of space you paint him as, right now he's doing very well all things considered. You've spent half a decade trying this 'capable = star' BS on, trying to belittle my opinion by wholesale inventing it, and guess what Claude? It still doesn't work.

santa claws said:
in essence you are saying in time graham will be as good as hille and ryder
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Gets funnier every time. Why don't you just get it over with and claim that I've stated Graham shat all over the best Polly Farmer ever managed in his first game? You know you want to, don't hold back now.

santa claws said:
me i think the club should be aiming for two ruckmen like ryder and hille you well your happy with mediocrity.
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Here in the REAL world, I'll deal with the REAL players we DO have and CAN get, and you can spend years moaning that we didn't take imaginary players from imaginary drafts (and Cam Wood). Unlike you, I recognise that no side can rebuild all areas in a handful of drafts and come up with topline players in all those areas. Doesn't happen, but you've never let that stop you complaining endlessly that we haven't done it.

santa claws said:
..the halls krakouers tivendales pettifers sheesh bud you have to do better you cant back them in forever.
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Wholesale invention is all you have.

I've never 'backed in' Krakouer, Tivendale or Pettifer when they played for us, and defending Hall against 500 w***ers at PRE who are so football clueless they do things like put him to the sword for having 3-4 goals kicked on him by the likes of Hall, Fevola and Bradshaw, does not amount to me ever saying he was a star or that it would be impossible to find a better player.

santa claws said:
in rookieing graham i thought great give him an opportunity and we can assess him hes been assessed based on his perfromances how hes gone against his peers and most importantly the tools he has to work with. he comes up short.
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Fortunately, those that matter at the club disagree with you, as do the vast majority of people here - because unlike you, they're happy to assess the available evidence from recent weeks and change their opinion, rather than deny, deny, deny, and wallow in their past judgements, way too proud to face reality.
 
That's lovely all fun and games til someone gets a poke in the eye.

It's good that so many Tigers fans still have the passion to argue about our sh!%house team atm.

Carn Tiges
 

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A few went to early on this kid
played his best game for the club today 14 tackles is a sensational effort
35 hit outs great game from Gus
still developing could definately make it its his time to show if he has what it takes and great start
 
Kyusss said:
A few went to early on this kid
played his best game for the club today 14 tackles is a sensational effort
35 hit outs great game from Gus
still developing could definately make it its his time to show if he has what it takes and great start
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have not seen a richmond ruck get 35 hit outs for a while. could of spent alot more time in the ruck to. a great game from him. there was not much more he could do on a day like today.
 
I keep getting emails about this thread cause i popped in and said i rated the kid, so may as well jump back on after he plays well!

Well done to him, Brogan was out but still good to see him actually play well in the game and be an effective player. I like this guy a lot, he and Vickery have got you in a pretty good way for ruckmen for the next 10 years i think.

Oh also...congrats on the win boys and girls! Well deserved.
 

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