Angus Graham

[folester41]

gus has been good, he is coming along nicely, will he ever be a consistent top ruckmen in the afl? you just dont know, it is one of the only positions where you just dont know how a player will develop

 

[turtle27]

I agree that Gus has got some deficiencies. But I'm not sure 37 games in what is effectively his third season in the top flight is time enough for us to judge him as a dud/delist. Jamar was pretty ordinary for his first six seasons until 2009 and then again last year. IMO Gus should be left in the No 1 Ruckman spot for the remainder of this year to get another 20 odd games into him. The time to make a call would be then.

 

[_RT_]

And here's a stat for ya ... Mumford is in the midst of being a key mover and shaker and influential reason in a second straight top eight finish for the Swans ... while Gus is spluttering our charge towards another bottom four finish.
While we accept mediocrity in our ranks, the collective will be mediocre!

I would suggest a bigger reason the Swans are heading towards another top 8 and we're not,is the players around Mumford and Graham, rather than the performances of these two.

The Swans have experienced players like Goodes O'Keefe Shaw Mattner Richards Bolton McVeigh Kennelly who are all 100+ gamers who have been there done that when it comes to achieving success. We have Newman Deledio Tuck Miller as our 100+ gamers with only Miller being part of a side that has played in a successful side.

 

[_RT_]

WOW you have an excuse for everything

You forgot to add that he is only in his second season as our #1 ruck and first season as #1 ruck with the new bench rules requirng him to run harder & longer

Make up as many excuses as you like to back up his stats but in end the stats wont get you four points. Seriously the over hype on stats is ridiculous, I recall only a season or so back when Bowden was racking up the stats most on here wanted him gone.

Well you offer up a valid reason why guys like Cox Sandilands Hudson & Ottens who are all 10 year veterans are running around average 18-20 and 30 odd hitouts, while many of the younger rucks are struggling to get half as many touches.

Yes he might only be 24 and we all know that rucks dont mature until the mid to high 20's but he needs to cover so many deficiencies that the stats hide before he will become a true ruckman.

I thought thats why you give players time to develop so that they can work on their deficiencies.

To add some perspective do yourself a favour and have a think for a moment if you would be happy if he played elsewhere and we were looking at bringing him to the club? I doubt the majority on this board who rate him so high would be happy for us to trade to dearly for him.

If he continued to put up the same types of numbers as he currently is then yes I would be happy, because I can see that Gus is a developing ruckman who has shown some pretty promising signs so far this year.

What would be interesting is seeing the reaction of this board if Gus was to miss a month or 2 and we had Browne or Derickx come in and ruck and put up worse performances that Gus does. It would be even more interesting when you add in the fact that a number of posters here seem to rate Derickx as a much better option based on what they saw in a half assed NAB Cup game in February.

 

[Goldust]

Seriously the over hype on stats is ridiculous, I recall only a season or so back when Bowden was racking up the stats most on here wanted him gone.

To add some perspective do yourself a favour and have a think for a moment if you would be happy if he played elsewhere and we were looking at bringing him to the club? I doubt the majority on this board who rate him so high would be happy for us to trade to dearly for him.

Exactly Prowler ... the Bowden example is a classic one! No shortage of hate for Joel on here, yet he racked it up an alarming rate! As I stated previously, stats are twisted to suit a poster's argument or support for their poster boy!
Wayne Campbell was another ... 30 possessions ... 20 of them 10 metre toe pokes to anyone not neceessarily better off.

Your second point, the minute Damien Barrett announced on The Footy Show that the Tigers were interested in Jackson Trengove, the Richmond board went nuts!!! We'd ALL have him - even the staunchest of Graham fans! I would near guarantee if Gus walked tomorrow, there would be little interest in him outside St Kilda, who take the bulk of our cast-offs!

 

[Goldust]

Well you offer up a valid reason why guys like Cox Sandilands Hudson & Ottens who are all 10 year veterans are running around average 18-20 and 30 odd hitouts, while many of the younger rucks are struggling to get half as many touches.


I thought thats why you give players time to develop so that they can work on their deficiencies.


If he continued to put up the same types of numbers as he currently is then yes I would be happy, because I can see that Gus is a developing ruckman who has shown some pretty promising signs so far this year.

What would be interesting is seeing the reaction of this board if Gus was to miss a month or 2 and we had Browne or Derickx come in and ruck and put up worse performances that Gus does. It would be even more interesting when you add in the fact that a number of posters here seem to rate Derickx as a much better option based on what they saw in a half assed NAB Cup game in February.

If Gus was injured and Browne or Derickz came in I'd opt for my "He's only young and developing" excuse as is granted for the eternally youthful King Gus!

 

[santa claws]

its one thing supplying stats and making them fit an argument entirely a different matter supplying them and correlating them to what actually happens.
stats smats.

 

[delediofan3]

i do have to admit that i like angus graham but his weakness is that he get tired too often

 

[santa claws]

How often do you think guys like Sandilands Cox Jolly and co were doing that in their first 50 games? I would suspect the answer would be much the same as what Graham is doing now.

Thats the thing people seem to forget when comparing him to these experienced types, none of them came into the league and simply dominated from the start. It took them years to learn how to be the players they currently are and yet there seems to be a number of posters on here who expect Graham to be able to match what these guys are doing. By seasons end Graham should have around 50-60 games under his belt and judging by how the careers of guys like Cox Sandilands Jolly and co progressed thats when we should start seeing the best of him. As I said in the OP, the signs he is showing are pretty good, just a shame that people seem to only focus on the things that he isn't doing as well.

for a bloke who relies so heavily on stats to put forward arguments you certainly manage to ignore them when it comes to other players.

jolly at age 23 played a very significant role along with jason ball in sydneys first premiership. most of jollys stats have not greatly increased since his first few yrs. its not his stats that are important its the way he goes about it and contests.

dean cox debuted as a 19 yr old. he was integral to the eagles at age 22 by 04 and played a significant role in their r/u yr and premiership yr in 05 06.

sandilands made his debut at the age of 20 in 2003. in his debut yr he had a mammoth 353 hitouts by 06 at the age of 23 he was dominating stoppages. in fact for 06 he was getting close to the number of hitouts graham has had for his entire career.
the knock on sandilands was and still reamins is his kicking and lack of marking power.

one could say about all of these blokes by the age of 23 that they would be significant footballers. there is no way in hell you can say that about graham at the age of 24.

its typical of so many debates on this forum where people throw up recorded stats but ignore all else.

should graham have done well against carlton, or stkilda or collingwood even hawthorn of course he should have he should have dominated but he didnt.the context there is he in the main played against second stringers yet failed in many areas.

if people think grahams record to date is good they are delusional. if they think its comparable to date with the likes of cox and co at a similar stage well thats hysterical. if they think the non competetive and dumb way he goes about it they are even more delusional.

i keep saying it seems the bar is set very low when it comes to our players for so many supporters.

i also keep on asking why is it we are so near the bottom again andits not all down to youth and inexperience. a lot of it is also because we have too many who are not good enough.

 

[Goldust]

for a bloke who relies so heavily on stats to put forward arguments you certainly manage to ignore them when it comes to other players.

jolly at age 23 played a very significant role along with jason ball in sydneys first premiership. most of jollys stats have not greatly increased since his first few yrs. its not his stats that are important its the way he goes about it and contests.

dean cox debuted as a 19 yr old. he was integral to the eagles at age 22 by 04 and played a significant role in their r/u yr and premiership yr in 05 06.

sandilands made his debut at the age of 20 in 2003. in his debut yr he had a mammoth 353 hitouts by 06 at the age of 23 he was dominating stoppages. in fact for 06 he was getting close to the number of hitouts graham has had for his entire career.
the knock on sandilands was and still reamins is his kicking and lack of marking power.

one could say about all of these blokes by the age of 23 that they would be significant footballers. there is no way in hell you can say that about graham at the age of 24.

its typical of so many debates on this forum where people throw up recorded stats but ignore all else.

should graham have done well against carlton, or stkilda or collingwood even hawthorn of course he should have he should have dominated but he didnt.the context there is he in the main played against second stringers yet failed in many areas.

if people think grahams record to date is good they are delusional. if they think its comparable to date with the likes of cox and co at a similar stage well thats hysterical. if they think the non competetive and dumb way he goes about it they are even more delusional.

i keep saying it seems the bar is set very low when it comes to our players for so many supporters.

i also keep on asking why is it we are so near the bottom again andits not all down to youth and inexperience. a lot of it is also because we have too many who are not good enough.

Amen. Especially the last sentence! As I said before, accepting mediocrity is the best way to stay mediocre!

 

[_RT_]

its one thing supplying stats and making them fit an argument entirely a different matter supplying them and correlating them to what actually happens.
stats smats.

Who is trying to make the stats fit an arguement? I'm just trying to show that Gus isn't travelling as badly as the majority like to suggest he is. Even though its quite clear that Graham is holding his own against other young ruckmen despite them having vastly more support than he does with Vickery yet he still can't be given any slack.

So I would really like to know just what do the anti Graham brigade expect a 24 year old 37 game ruckman to be producing while playing for a bottom 4 contender? Surely you don't expect him to be having an impact like 10 year 150+ game veterans like Cox Sandilands Ottens Jolly & Hudson are having. For if you do then its obvious why you guys are disappointed. On the other hand if you expect him to show gradual improvement as the sides performances improve then I'm totally lost as to what all the fuss is about as its clearly what the guy is delivering.

 

[santa claws]

What would be interesting is seeing the reaction of this board if Gus was to miss a month or 2 and we had Browne or Derickx come in and ruck and put up worse performances that Gus does. It would be even more interesting when you add in the fact that a number of posters here seem to rate Derickx as a much better option based on what they saw in a half assed NAB Cup game in February.

lol i could see it too. most would jump up and down like idiots because they focus on winning. its all that is important to them.
sometimes you have to go backwards to go forward.

as you well know me ive wanted graham to be replaced all yr but injury to derickx has said he maybe has to play.and as you well know i have not rated him for several yrs now.i dont see improvement in him at all.

we know graham is not up to it, well after 5 seasons i do. id be more than happy to see browne or derickx get games put into them weather they perform better than graham for now or not.

this yr has always been about weeding out the hacks and playing and finding kids who may or may not be the answer moving forward. it may mean we dont win as many games as last yr and we may perform even worse.

i havent hung around to see them play blokes like graham or white or king edwards and others i have hung around to see if we cant find a kid who may or may not be a better option.

i saw a bit of derickx at claremont and he has attributes that say he should in time be a better option than graham so give him games and lets find out.
lets not keep on playing blokes who are not up to it.

 

[partycorolla]

for a bloke who relies so heavily on stats to put forward arguments you certainly manage to ignore them when it comes to other players.

jolly at age 23 played a very significant role along with jason ball in sydneys first premiership. most of jollys stats have not greatly increased since his first few yrs. its not his stats that are important its the way he goes about it and contests.

dean cox debuted as a 19 yr old. he was integral to the eagles at age 22 by 04 and played a significant role in their r/u yr and premiership yr in 05 06.

sandilands made his debut at the age of 20 in 2003. in his debut yr he had a mammoth 353 hitouts by 06 at the age of 23 he was dominating stoppages. in fact for 06 he was getting close to the number of hitouts graham has had for his entire career.
the knock on sandilands was and still reamins is his kicking and lack of marking power.

one could say about all of these blokes by the age of 23 that they would be significant footballers. there is no way in hell you can say that about graham at the age of 24.

its typical of so many debates on this forum where people throw up recorded stats but ignore all else.

should graham have done well against carlton, or stkilda or collingwood even hawthorn of course he should have he should have dominated but he didnt.the context there is he in the main played against second stringers yet failed in many areas.

if people think grahams record to date is good they are delusional. if they think its comparable to date with the likes of cox and co at a similar stage well thats hysterical. if they think the non competetive and dumb way he goes about it they are even more delusional.

i keep saying it seems the bar is set very low when it comes to our players for so many supporters.

i also keep on asking why is it we are so near the bottom again andits not all down to youth and inexperience. a lot of it is also because we have too many who are not good enough.

Santa... using those same stats you just provided.... Angus is on track for more hitouts than Sandilands in 2006.... the year you say he dominated stoppages.... averaging 3 more than Aaron? Why did you bring that up?

He is 5 tackles more per game higher, .2 of a goal better and 2 possies and 1 mark lower than Aaron at the same age. I don't know why you would bring those up those stats to support your argument.... they seem quite comparable.

Looking at their first full season (I'm not counting 2 games in 2007 as Gus' debut season) then Aaron has 4 more hitouts per game, 2 less possies than Gus, half a mark less per game and 2 less tackles per game. Once again comparable.... Add that to the fact that Sandi played in a team that made finals and that Gus played in a team that.... well mentioning 07 or 09 isn't fun for any of us.

I can't help but think that the statistics you want to compare these 2 on makes them look more similar...

My problem with the debate is this though.... No one is prepared to admit that there is nothing we can do about it this year. If you think Browne is a better alternative, you are delusional.... looks only average at VFL level. Vickery is just not big enough yet Derickx...well let's be honest.... Santa, you have done more for the club at this stage than he has (assuming you are a member of course).

I don't think he goes about it in a dumb way (well more than most ruckmen, who seem to be big and clumsy). He's been asked to do a little bit more than he should be at this stage of his career (coaching/balance issue) in terms of game time in the ruck.... and he's doing ok. I don't think he's a star... not by a long shot but he is the best we have ATM.... stats or not.

 

[NQTIGER]

Amen. Especially the last sentence! As I said before, accepting mediocrity is the best way to stay mediocre!

Hear hear only the mediocre achieve their full potential......

and gus is mediocre at best,cant mark , cant kick, cant handball

 

[Juju Porky]

there's one stat that has been totally ignored. how may times this season has he been in our 'best'?

 

[_RT_]

for a bloke who relies so heavily on stats to put forward arguments you certainly manage to ignore them when it comes to other players.

jolly at age 23 played a very significant role along with jason ball in sydneys first premiership. most of jollys stats have not greatly increased since his first few yrs. its not his stats that are important its the way he goes about it and contests.

There is something in here that is vastly different to what Graham has had to contend with.

dean cox debuted as a 19 yr old. he was integral to the eagles at age 22 by 04 and played a significant role in their r/u yr and premiership yr in 05 06.

Same thing applies here.

sandilands made his debut at the age of 20 in 2003. in his debut yr he had a mammoth 353 hitouts by 06 at the age of 23 he was dominating stoppages. in fact for 06 he was getting close to the number of hitouts graham has had for his entire career.
the knock on sandilands was and still reamins is his kicking and lack of marking power.

Same thing here again.

The one thing all of those blokes you mentioned had was a fairly decent ruckmen to share the load with. Who has Graham had to share the load with? In 09 & 10 he had Simmonds on his last legs, a young raw Vickery and a rookie named Browne as his support. Any wonder the bloke hasn't exactly shone as a young developing ruckman, when he has had to carry the load on his own. But hey lets not mention that, as it doesn't quite suit the arguement that these blokes just came in and dominated from the get go now does it.

BTW I wonder how Graham would have faired if he was able to learn of someone like Gardiner or Ball or a young fit Simmonds, like Cox Jolly & Sandilands were able to do? Something tells me that he would have shown much more than he currently has, seeing its no coincidence that since Lade arrived Grahams performances have steadily improved. Amazing what a decent player/coach to learn off can do for a young ruckmans development.

one could say about all of these blokes by the age of 23 that they would be significant footballers. there is no way in hell you can say that about graham at the age of 24.

its typical of so many debates on this forum where people throw up recorded stats but ignore all else.

Not ignoring anything Claws, in fact I agree that Cox and Sandilands in particular showed a fair bit more than Graham has at the same age. The thing that you seem to overlook is that these guys are freaks. One has the ability to play the game like a medium sized midfielder while playing ruck and the other is a 211cm 122kg mountain that even Cox finds hard to compete against. BTW I'm not suggesting that Graham is going to end up with a career like these guys have had.

should graham have done well against carlton, or stkilda or collingwood even hawthorn of course he should have he should have dominated but he didnt.the context there is he in the main played against second stringers yet failed in many areas.

if people think grahams record to date is good they are delusional. if they think its comparable to date with the likes of cox and co at a similar stage well thats hysterical. if they think the non competetive and dumb way he goes about it they are even more delusional.

i keep saying it seems the bar is set very low when it comes to our players for so many supporters.

As I mentioned in the OP guys like Cox Sandilands and co didn't start dominating games until they had played well over 50 games at this level. To suggest that Graham who had played 33 games prior to the season should come out and start dominating games is what is delusional. In fact one could even suggest that is setting the bar way too high, especially when most people here prior to the season suggested that this season was all about development rather than performance.

As for Grahams career to date, while it hasn't exactly been great it is pleasing to see that he is improving, albeit obviously not quick enough for some.

i also keep on asking why is it we are so near the bottom again andits not all down to youth and inexperience. a lot of it is also because we have too many who are not good enough.

Gee what a shock, last years 15th placed side is still near the bottom, who would have thought that would happen.

Perhaps you would like to explain how in one off season we should have improved signifigantly enough to be sitting 4-0 with a % of 150+, hell I'll even take you explaining how we should have been at worse 2-2 with a % of 100.

 

[santa claws]

Santa... using those same stats you just provided.... Angus is on track for more hitouts than Sandilands in 2006.... the year you say he dominated stoppages.... averaging 3 more than Aaron? Why did you bring that up?

He is 5 tackles more per game higher, .2 of a goal better and 2 possies and 1 mark lower than Aaron at the same age. I don't know why you would bring those up those stats to support your argument.... they seem quite comparable.

Looking at their first full season (I'm not counting 2 games in 2007 as Gus' debut season) then Aaron has 4 more hitouts per game, 2 less possies than Gus, half a mark less per game and 2 less tackles per game. Once again comparable.... Add that to the fact that Sandi played in a team that made finals and that Gus played in a team that.... well mentioning 07 or 09 isn't fun for any of us.

I can't help but think that the statistics you want to compare these 2 on makes them look more similar...

My problem with the debate is this though.... No one is prepared to admit that there is nothing we can do about it this year. If you think Browne is a better alternative, you are delusional.... looks only average at VFL level. Vickery is just not big enough yet Derickx...well let's be honest.... Santa, you have done more for the club at this stage than he has (assuming you are a member of course).

I don't think he goes about it in a dumb way (well more than most ruckmen, who seem to be big and clumsy). He's been asked to do a little bit more than he should be at this stage of his career (coaching/balance issue) in terms of game time in the ruck.... and he's doing ok. I don't think he's a star... not by a long shot but he is the best we have ATM.... stats or not.

its this misuse of stats that has me laughing.
so are you telling me that so far in grahams career hes been better than sandilands. and you do this based on a block of 4 games where graham has not confronted one number ruckman.
hes 24 106kg 200 plus cm and one of the biggest blokes in the comp and does not have a physical presence.
hmm if we are to talk their first 4 seasons and place huge emphasis on knockouts

graham 07 age 20, games 2, 17 hitouts. 08 0 games. 09 16 games 227 hitouts.2010 age 23 15 games 288 hitouts.

sandilands 03 age 20, 19 games, 353 hitouts. 04 games 20. 473 hitouts.
05 games 18, hitouts 414. 06 age 23 games 21, 516 hitouts.

and here i have blokes like rt insinuating graham has been as good as sandilands and cox and others at a similar stage. and here i have you trying to tell me graham is as good as sandilands based on a block of 4 games.
what utter bollocks.
if you actually read the thread closely you will find its not the hitouts that are the real criticism anyway. its a stat that is meaningless without all the other tangibles. its not the marking or kicking or tackling its the overall package. you want criticisms of him i can reel em off but why bother people like you and rt dont want to know nope your precious stats say differently so it must be so.

prowler hit it on the head. if the club were to go out and trade for a ruckman and graham was available how many do you really think would be happy about it.

to finish off. here are the games and hitouts of a player who is much maligned and in footy in general. his name is mark blake but i would suggest if hitouts are the criteria his early seasons are better than grahams.

blake debut 05 age 19. 3games 27 hitouts. 06 8 games 97 hitouts. 07 22 games 379 hitouts. 08 25 games 525 hitouts.
is angus graham a better player than mark blake.

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you rate them based on everything you see as well as stats. for me ive seen enough he may be a decent back up ruckman but thats about it for me we do have a choice we can play blokes like browne and see what they have to offer we can get some games into them even if they perform worse than graham. as stated not only by me but the club itself its about getting games into kids and finding better players or finding out at the least if they have something to offer.

 

[THE THIN MAN]

The sooner we upgrade from Graham the better.

Mr Spuddie he aint but he is not far off it.

 

[_RT_]

and here i have blokes like rt insinuating graham has been as good as sandilands and cox and others at a similar stage.

Excuse me Claws I have never said or even insinuated that Graham has been as good as Sandiland and Cox at a similar age. What I have said is at a similar age they were putting up similar numbers as what Graham has so far this year. The difference at the moment is those 2 went on and became very good ruckmen and given 99% of ruckmen don't really hit their straps until their mid to late 20's and have played at least 60 odd game Graham still has some time on his side to get somewhere near the level they reached. Yet the way some carry on its like he should be matching these guys now.

 

[TheProwler]

there's one stat that has been totally ignored. how may times this season has he been in our 'best'?

Well thats perhaps the most crucial stat and I dont have to even waste a minute to answer that: 0


I hope he continues to improve and become an elite ruckman but I seriously hope the club has a long term plan for our ruck work because we are building a pretty top notch midfield which at the moment has to win too many contests to get the ball heading in the right direction

 

[partycorolla]

its this misuse of stats that has me laughing.
so are you telling me that so far in grahams career hes been better than sandilands. and you do this based on a block of 4 games where graham has not confronted one number ruckman.
hes 24 106kg 200 plus cm and one of the biggest blokes in the comp and does not have a physical presence.
hmm if we are to talk their first 4 seasons and place huge emphasis on knockouts

graham 07 age 20, games 2, 17 hitouts. 08 0 games. 09 16 games 227 hitouts.2010 age 23 15 games 288 hitouts.

sandilands 03 age 20, 19 games, 353 hitouts. 04 games 20. 473 hitouts.
05 games 18, hitouts 414. 06 age 23 games 21, 516 hitouts.

and here i have blokes like rt insinuating graham has been as good as sandilands and cox and others at a similar stage. and here i have you trying to tell me graham is as good as sandilands based on a block of 4 games.
what utter bollocks.
if you actually read the thread closely you will find its not the hitouts that are the real criticism anyway. its a stat that is meaningless without all the other tangibles. its not the marking or kicking or tackling its the overall package. you want criticisms of him i can reel em off but why bother people like you and rt dont want to know nope your precious stats say differently so it must be so.

prowler hit it on the head. if the club were to go out and trade for a ruckman and graham was available how many do you really think would be happy about it.

to finish off. here are the games and hitouts of a player who is much maligned and in footy in general. his name is mark blake but i would suggest if hitouts are the criteria his early seasons are better than grahams.

blake debut 05 age 19. 3games 27 hitouts. 06 8 games 97 hitouts. 07 22 games 379 hitouts. 08 25 games 525 hitouts.
is angus graham a better player than mark blake.

at the end of the day it all comes down to how you rate them based on everything you see as well as stats. for me ive seen enough he may be a decent back up ruckman but thats about it for me we do have a choice we can play blokes like browne and see what they have to offer we can get some games into them even if they perform worse than graham. as stated not only by me but the club itself its about getting games into kids and finding better players or finding out at the least if they have something to offer.

Stop ignoring the question Santa... you muppet... who is the replacement for him right here right now? It's all whinge whinge whinge from you with absolutely nothing in the way of a solution. As the saying goes Santa, if your not part of the solution you're part of the problem.... So who on our list right now would do a better job, week in week out. Anybody with a modicum of brain power (ask your cousin) would know that Gus is not only the best answer right now.... but he is the only answer right now. Blame anyone.... Plough, Jackson, Miller, I couldn't give a proverbial.... but the they are the facts. WE HAVE NO-ONE BETTER.... accept it, it is a fact. The fact that we have a 37 gamer heading up our ruck division is a reflection on who Santa??? FFS... grow up, accept that this is the real question and we can get on with it... until then you will get no credibility from me or any other supporter with a clue.

 

[partycorolla]

Excuse me Claws I have never said or even insinuated that Graham has been as good as Sandiland and Cox at a similar age. What I have said is at a similar age they were putting up similar numbers as what Graham has so far this year. The difference at the moment is those 2 went on and became very good ruckmen and given 99% of ruckmen don't really hit their straps until their mid to late 20's and have played at least 60 odd game Graham still has some time on his side to get somewhere near the level they reached. Yet the way some carry on its like he should be matching these guys now.

RT.... I'm sorry but your comments reflecting sense and reason have no place on this forum. Unless Graham can deliver the same output as Sandi and Cox in the next 3 weeks then he is crap.... I don't care that his stats are similar at a similar age of career, I don't care that he plays in a crapper team than those mentioned.... I deliver presents to children in December, therefore I know all... Or perhaps.... I just don't get it

 

[TheProwler]

RT.... I'm sorry but your comments reflecting sense and reason have no place on this forum. Unless Graham can deliver the same output as Sandi and Cox in the next 3 weeks then he is crap.... I don't care that his stats are similar at a similar age of career, I don't care that he plays in a crapper team than those mentioned.... I deliver presents to children in December, therefore I know all... Or perhaps.... I just don't get it

Cmon mate you are making a clown of yourself with that gibberish

I dont recall anyone asking for graham to be delisted or anyone saying he should be equal now to cox or sandi so to suggest so is deluded and plain wrong. Some may have suggested we try Browne or DX but certainly not to delist Gus.

The OP is comparing stats in TODAYS game with players dating back five or more years. The game has changed so much just this year with the new bench & sub rule (which will have a profound effect on rucks),just as much as it has changed in the last five years. Using silly stats to prop up an argument that Gus is comparable to some of the best rucks going around is flawed

 

[NQTIGER]

Excuse me Claws I have never said or even insinuated that Graham has been as good as Sandiland and Cox at a similar age. What I have said is at a similar age they were putting up similar numbers as what Graham has so far this year. The difference at the moment is those 2 went on and became very good ruckmen and given 99% of ruckmen don't really hit their straps until their mid to late 20's and have played at least 60 odd game Graham still has some time on his side to get somewhere near the level they reached. Yet the way some carry on its like he should be matching these guys now.

RT you start a thread, when someoe comes on and says hey thats not right or has a different opinion you spend the next 60 pages trying to justify your OP then you try and deflect, read all your posts in this thread and try and do that in the third person and see what conclusions you make.

Claws is absoloutely right on this yet you seem to be telling us otherwise.....sheeesh.

 

[_RT_]

Cmon mate you are making a clown of yourself with that gibberish

I dont recall anyone asking for graham to be delisted or anyone saying he should be equal now to cox or sandi so to suggest so is deluded and plain wrong. Some may have suggested we try Browne or DX but certainly not to delist Gus.

The OP is comparing stats in TODAYS game with players dating back five or more years. The game has changed so much just this year with the new bench & sub rule (which will have a profound effect on rucks),just as much as it has changed in the last five years. Using silly stats to prop up an argument that Gus is comparable to some of the best rucks going around is flawed

Are you sure about that, if you bother looking at the link the stats are from THIS year, not 5+ years ago which is what Claws brought up. The only comparison I did make between Graham and players like Cox Sandilands and co was to say that it took them a good 50-60 games before they started to really hit their straps, which ties in with my belief that Graham needs more time before we start getting concerned about his future.

RT you start a thread, when someoe comes on and says hey thats not right or has a different opinion you spend the next 60 pages trying to justify your OP then you try and deflect, read all your posts in this thread and try and do that in the third person and see what conclusions you make.

Claws is absoloutely right on this yet you seem to be telling us otherwise.....sheeesh.

All I've tried to show is that outside the established veterans in Cox Sandilands Ottens and co and that most of the young developing ruckmen are all putting up very similar performances when it comes to their impact on the game. Naturally posters who aren't fans of Graham are going to put forward counter arguements and I believe I have addressed each point that has been raised, but feel free to show me where you think I've deflected.