Angus Graham

[santa claws]

The names provided are all over the thread Santa.... the stats you, RT me and everybody else are using are comparing their output. Some now, some from years ago (relative to age etc). Astbury didn't play CHB last year.... so good point. Unless you want to run Browne on a wing? Or maybe Vickery is being developed which is why he is playing forward/ruck. If this is the case you should be stoked. Although this also means that they consider Gus the best 1st Ruck option we have this year.... which I believe I have said somewhere. You can trawl through pages each time you post.... I just get on with it.

But hey Santa.... let me summarise for you my point and then you can summarise yours.

Me: I think Gus is our best option as 1st Ruck in 2011. I also think for a 37 game ruckman he is developing ok. Using available stats, he is progressing at a similar rate (statistically) to other ruckmen in the league who are generally considered to be good. Please note here Santa, I am not saying he is going better or in fact ever will be better than those other rucks. I think it is too early to make those sort of calls (ie he is a dud/he is a gun etc) and we will know far more definitively after he has played another 30 - 40 games. I believe in 2011 we don't have a better option. I am concerned about his lack of physicality at times and his tank (I think the coaching staff should handle his minutes better and give Vickery a bigger load than he has in the ruck). I think that's about it for now. I am truly sorry if I offended you in any way. I await your contention. Please don't provide any rebuttal until the end of your contention. Cheers

so i see you cant name a post where that comparison was made. your credability is slipping.

rather than argue where astbury played he played 17 games in defense as a tall. when there were more experienced and more accomplished players available. not unreasonable to assume if we can do that with a first yr player, why not a third yr 203cm 105kg man mountain in browne. or give a game or two to a 24 yr old 201cm 99kg bloke who has come from the wafl playing against men. anyway nice deflection and well avoided. its what you do best.

as i have stated im not the one who made the spurious claim that graham has done as much as those ruckmen mentioned sandilands jolly etc in their first 4 yrs.
i think ive shown just how stupid that assertion is and unlike you i m not doing backflips over 4 games this yr where for a 24 yr old 5th yr 200cm 106kg ruckman playing against opposition second stringers he should dominate.nope you hang your hat on that and assert hes done as well as those blokes.

i wont go thru the mountain of dribble you have posted except to say its funny you think gus is the number one ruckman based on the fact vickery is being developed as a forward ruckman.
we all know vickery like astbury is not the best option in the ruck hes physically miles away nor is he really the best option as the second key forward.yet we play him for development effectively taking a step backwards.

as i have said im not debating if graham is the best option at first ruck atm.he probably is. but i think it important we play one of browne or derickx in his stead probably go backwards for a little bit but hopefully take care of the future in doing it. because everything ive seen of graham to date suggests he is not up to it.

no grit soft as butter pushed around like a girl not just by other ruckmen but smaller players as well. has no real impact on games no motor cant kick in fact uses poorly by hand as well cant mark plays dumb. hes 24 and no longer a kid in fact hes been one of the bigger players in the comp for two or 3 yrs there is no excuse for him.

finally you dont offend me in any way at all in fact its quite amusing reading your posts.

you think graham travelling quite well. well how about you tell us exactly what you like about him. the way he throws himself around how effective his tap outs are how smart he is or how good a contested mark he is. how he competes so well when the ball hits the ground or how well he handballs and kicks the ball. the way he physically imposes himself on the game cmon let us know what you think.

 

[partycorolla]

so i see you cant name a post where that comparison was made. your credability is slipping.

rather than argue where astbury played he played 17 games in defense as a tall. when there were more experienced and more accomplished players available. not unreasonable to assume if we can do that with a first yr player, why not a third yr 203cm 105kg man mountain in browne. or give a game or two to a 24 yr old 201cm 99kg bloke who has come from the wafl playing against men. anyway nice deflection and well avoided. its what you do best.

as i have stated im not the one who made the spurious claim that graham has done as much as those ruckmen mentioned sandilands jolly etc in their first 4 yrs.
i think ive shown just how stupid that assertion is and unlike you i m not doing backflips over 4 games this yr where for a 24 yr old 5th yr 200cm 106kg ruckman playing against opposition second stringers he should dominate.nope you hang your hat on that and assert hes done as well as those blokes.

i wont go thru the mountain of dribble you have posted except to say its funny you think gus is the number one ruckman based on the fact vickery is being developed as a forward ruckman.
we all know vickery like astbury is not the best option in the ruck hes physically miles away nor is he really the best option as the second key forward.yet we play him for development effectively taking a step backwards.

as i have said im not debating if graham is the best option at first ruck atm.he probably is. but i think it important we play one of browne or derickx in his stead probably go backwards for a little bit but hopefully take care of the future in doing it. because everything ive seen of graham to date suggests he is not up to it.

no grit soft as butter pushed around like a girl not just by other ruckmen but smaller players as well. has no real impact on games no motor cant kick in fact uses poorly by hand as well cant mark plays dumb. hes 24 and no longer a kid in fact hes been one of the bigger players in the comp for two or 3 yrs there is no excuse for him.

finally you dont offend me in any way at all in fact its quite amusing reading your posts.

you think graham travelling quite well. well how about you tell us exactly what you like about him. the way he throws himself around how effective his tap outs are how smart he is or how good a contested mark he is. how he competes so well when the ball hits the ground or how well he handballs and kicks the ball. the way he physically imposes himself on the game cmon let us know what you think.

Ok, Santa - posts 1, 9 and 16 all compare stats this year versus other ruckman. I don't really care what you think of my credibility on a football forum. Although if you are really worried about that then it may be a problem for you as you have an awful lot of detractors on this site.... therefore maybe your credibility is slipping. In my eyes however, you are just another poster.... like everyone else on here.

Astbury played most of his games in defence but perhaps you forgot that his debut game was played up forward v Melbourne. Kicked 3 early goals in fact, or was it 2... anyway, was up forward.

You concede that Gus is our only viable option for 1st ruck this year. You seem to agree with my assessments of our other ruck options not being ready yet. I agree that some of them should get game time but not at the expense as yet of the No 1 ruck.

When you say can't mark, I assume you are talking the contested variety we all want from our talls. If you don't think he can mark at all then you are a.... but I know that isn't what you are saying. I agree he needs to clunk a few more. I have an idea that while Gus isn't soft as butter as you put it, I agree he doesn't use his body as well as he should and I think he is poor at protecting himself in contests, seems to leave his body opened up too frequently (ribs etc). Interested to see if anyone else has noticed the same?

I don't ever remember saying I liked a whole lot of stuff about him. I did say he is our best option in 2011.... hardly sounds to me like a lovefest. I just dislike the way one of our young players is being attacked by his own supporters. If he had say Josh Fraser's game experience and his output, I'd probably join in.... but 37 games for a ruckman... come on. It's just too early. I think Rayzor pointed out an effective tap highlight from the Pies game and I don't know his effective hitout stats or even what the stats guru count as an effective hitout. A mate I play footy with works for champion data as a statistician so I can ask him. His kicking is so so, not a terrible kick for goal.... rather him than Hampson or Warnock There are not too many ruckmen who are elite kicks, Cox is and Jolly is solid now but generally when they mark it, they hand it off or kick it long. Plays dumb?? Need a better description please before I answer that one...

 

[TheProwler]

1 game a year and you try to tell me I don't know what's happening at the game. Watching through the ad breaks must be difficult.... Please spare me. I know all I need to know about your ability to watch a game now.... A being the operative word. Stat counting..... no that's not me.... perhaps stat reading.... there there, you are getting confused. Oh and 5 secs between kick ins. They can happen a lot quicker than that.... but you shouldn't miss much. Writing a point in your record shouldn't take that long. Do you use a record at home? Seems a bit pointless really...

WTF? go and read some more stats you clown

 

[Cathal Brugha]

I'm happy with Angus's progression but he will really need to dominate today if we are to have some chance given the amount of small bodies we have in the side.

Browne is beginning to apply the torch to him after being amongst Coburg's best players so far this season.

 

[NQTIGER]

Ok, Santa - posts 1, 9 and 16 all compare stats this year versus other ruckman. I don't really care what you think of my credibility on a football forum. Although if you are really worried about that then it may be a problem for you as you have an awful lot of detractors on this site.... therefore maybe your credibility is slipping. In my eyes however, you are just another poster.... like everyone else on here.

Astbury played most of his games in defence but perhaps you forgot that his debut game was played up forward v Melbourne. Kicked 3 early goals in fact, or was it 2... anyway, was up forward.

You concede that Gus is our only viable option for 1st ruck this year. You seem to agree with my assessments of our other ruck options not being ready yet. I agree that some of them should get game time but not at the expense as yet of the No 1 ruck.

When you say can't mark, I assume you are talking the contested variety we all want from our talls. If you don't think he can mark at all then you are a.... but I know that isn't what you are saying. I agree he needs to clunk a few more. I have an idea that while Gus isn't soft as butter as you put it, I agree he doesn't use his body as well as he should and I think he is poor at protecting himself in contests, seems to leave his body opened up too frequently (ribs etc). Interested to see if anyone else has noticed the same?

I don't ever remember saying I liked a whole lot of stuff about him. I did say he is our best option in 2011.... hardly sounds to me like a lovefest. I just dislike the way one of our young players is being attacked by his own supporters. If he had say Josh Fraser's game experience and his output, I'd probably join in.... but 37 games for a ruckman... come on. It's just too early. I think Rayzor pointed out an effective tap highlight from the Pies game and I don't know his effective hitout stats or even what the stats guru count as an effective hitout. A mate I play footy with works for champion data as a statistician so I can ask him. His kicking is so so, not a terrible kick for goal.... rather him than Hampson or Warnock There are not too many ruckmen who are elite kicks, Cox is and Jolly is solid now but generally when they mark it, they hand it off or kick it long. Plays dumb?? Need a better description please before I answer that one...

Angus Graham career average marks 3.2 (37 games)
Natanui carreer average marks 6.0 (35 games)

pretty telling stats i would have thought, and has no awareness. but we can on and on, and if you reallly believe that gus is travelling well then we are in deep shit.

 

[_RT_]

who was it who first bought up opposition ruckmen.

my argument is you base your whole argument on a block of 4 games where gus has only played against second stringers. i also argue strongly and correctly that gus grahams first 4 yrs does not stack up against most of those you mention.

How else would you like me to discuss how Graham is travelling when compared to others without bringing up opposition ruckmen?

I've got no problem in saying that Grahams first 3 years of his career weren't the greatest. However, as I said in that quote, if you go through and have a look at the careers of the established ruckmen you will see that it wasn't until these guys had played at least 60 games that they started to really dominate games. By seasons end he will have reached that number of games. Its only then after 4 seasons at this level that we can start to truly judge Graham, as someone once said talls get until they are 24, guess what age Graham just turned.

i also contend that despite reasonable stats this yr graham has been very ordinary in areas that stats just dont show up. yep despite the stats many of us contend hes been ordinary this yr.

What areas has he been very ordinary in? The only area I've been disappointed with at times is his lack of competitiveness, however thats an area that can be improved as he gains more experience.

as usual you attempt to pump up the tyres of a player based solely on stats and to compound the effort you try to pump him up over a 4 game effort which has been shown not to be the norm.

Of course they aren't the norm, as I've tried to point out Graham is improving, so far this year his improved his hitouts per game by ~50% does that for 22 games and he gets 600+ hitouts for the season, took Sandilands until his 6th season to reach that level & Cox has never managed it. Also improved his tackles per game by ~50%, now I don't expect him to continue to average 6 tackles a game, but if he can he'll lay well over 100 this season.

graham is no skinny kid. he is 201cm 106kg and 24 yrs of age. as someone else said he is one of the biggest blokes in the comp yet he plays like a girl.
i would hazard a guess and say nearly all ruckmen so far this yr despite poorer stats would have had a far bigger influnce on games than graham.

Might interest you to know that Graham is =4th most inexperienced ruckmen out of that group that I mentioned in the OP. Yet you expect him to go out and dominate against most of them.

i watched a little of the gc game today sheesh you would take smith in front of graham any day of the week despite your stats. bloody hell id take josh fraser in front of graham despite your stats.

Won't get any arguement from me regarding Smith, but on Fraser gee who would have thought a 10 year 200 game ruckman would perform better than a 37 gamer.

yep gus gets to play nm minus mcintosh. he could not have gotten an easier start to the season.
no kruezer no gardiner no jolly no mcintosh and played mainly against a developing ruck in renouf whos two yrs younger and smaller.

i will say again stats schmats they mean jack unless you include the whole.

Interesting you say that Graham has had an easy start to the year, his opponents have been Warnock(34 games) & Hampson (36), McEvoy(33), Renouf(48) & Hale (133) and Wood(47) & Brown(227). In comparison Graham was playing his 34th-38th games.

Do you think its a little funny that Renouf with near 50 games to his name is still considered to be a developing ruckman according to you and yet Graham with less experience should go out and dominate.

Just finally any chance you might get around to addressing the points I raised back in post 41 after you brought up how Cox Sandilands and Jolly were such important parts of their sides in just their 3rd-4th seasons.

 

[_RT_]

Angus Graham career average marks 3.2 (37 games)
Natanui carreer average marks 6.0 (35 games)

pretty telling stats i would have thought, and has no awareness. but we can on and on, and if you reallly believe that gus is travelling well then we are in deep shit.

Might want to try again, Naitanui has taken 49 marks for his career at an average of 1.4 per game.

 

[Goldust]

As for falling over his own feet, bringing that up is just another example of how the occassional stuff up by whipping boys, like Graham, get blown out of proportion.

Yeah, the Matty White syndrome. People will inevitably notice Matty's one clanger yet overlook the good.
But for the record, Gus' stuff ups are regular!!
Send the guy packing .. He's just no good!!!
RT73 hit it on the head ... disappointed with his lack of competitiveness...that's the story! He just don't exert himeslf on a contest!

 

[HighFlyer]

Angus Graham career average marks 3.2 (37 games)
Natanui carreer average marks 6.0 (35 games)t.

For the record I've argued before in defense of the big fella, however.


For a side that struggles to clear the ball out of our back half , this stat becomes even more telling. We really need our talls to be a marking presence when we are trying to clear under pressure. Even Vickery at his development stage is a better option as a clearing mark. Big x showed in the preseason time he played that he already knows how to impose himself on a marking contest as a ruck man, that is use your height and weight and crash the pack. Stafford was good at this because Stafford had a serious nasty streak, he loved the impact. Big x has the same nasty streak look at his draft video footage and he's been playing against men. I agree with Santa we've seen what Angus has maybe time to give someone else the same chance. He's not as hopeless as most people make out, he is serviceable ,the problem is with really only three ruck men on our list you'd suggest serviceable is not good enough. Great as a backup ruck man, not great if you have aspirations to win a flag.

 

[Goldust]

For the record I've argued before in defense of the big fella, however.


For a side that struggles to clear the ball out of our back half , this stat becomes even more telling. We really need our talls to be a marking presence when we are trying to clear under pressure. Even Vickery at his development stage is a better option as a clearing mark. Big x showed in the preseason time he played that he already knows how to impose himself on a marking contest as a ruck man, that is use your height and weight and crash the pack. Stafford was good at this because Stafford had a serious nasty streak, he loved the impact. Big x has the same nasty streak look at his draft video footage and he's been playing against men. I agree with Santa we've seen what Angus has maybe time to give someone else the same chance. He's not as hopeless as most people make out, he is serviceable ,the problem is with really only three ruck men on our list you'd suggest serviceable is not good enough. Great as a backup ruck man, not great if you have aspirations to win a flag.

I keep saying it buddy, he won't take us forward.
Great use of words, if we have aspirations of winning a flag, Gus won't get it done!!! That's what it's about ... setting ourselves up!

 

[partycorolla]

WTF? go and read some more stats you clown

Oops I've confused the troglodyte.... sorry

 

[partycorolla]

Might want to try again, Naitanui has taken 49 marks for his career at an average of 1.4 per game.

Oops, making up statistics.... dear oh dear

 

[_RT_]

Yeah, the Matty White syndrome. People will inevitably notice Matty's one clanger yet overlook the good.
But for the record, Gus' stuff ups are regular!!
Send the guy packing .. He's just no good!!!
RT73 hit it on the head ... disappointed with his lack of competitiveness...that's the story! He just don't exert himeslf on a contest!

The lack of competitiveness can be improved on as he gains experience and learns where he needs to be to impact contests more often. If by time he has played another 35-40 games he still lacks that competitiveness then I'll start having grave concerns, until then I've got no problem in giving him time to develop.

 

[SleepingGiant]

He was disgraceful today

 

[thecotch]

He was disgraceful today

Are you serious? I thought graham had a really good game. Rucked all day and gave a contest. Needs support.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

He was disgraceful today

Wasn't great. But Vickery was worse.

When Graham got injured the decision to sub vickery looked awful, miller went in the ruck and they instantly won a clearance and scored a goal. I would have subbed off Nason because he did NOTHING. Vickery would have provided more run

 

[HighFlyer]

Are you serious? I thought graham had a really good game. Rucked all day and gave a contest. Needs support.

Triple M had him third worst on.

 

[astro_toby]

he was quite "blah" - neither side had a ruckman who was going to play a part in them winning today

 

[theflea]

Triple M had him third worst on.

in the third when viks got subbed we lost all ascendancy in the middle

 

[thecotch]

Triple M had him third worst on.

MMM is a schit broadcaster.

 

[tugga]

Piss him off for next week. If he is not choosing to gut run to contests, then we will bring in someone who will. Big Tom will gladly take his opportunity if given.

 

[Tigerland]

1 minute into the 2nd quarter summed up Angus. Could have smuthered a kick. Instead pulled away like a scared girl.

He is a 106kg giant with a pea heart that has poor co-ordination and is a terrbile decision maker.
Bring on Browne and Derickx

 

[Gentlemen]

Was woeful, I was all for, Gus, trying to defend him, but after that I have no words.

 

[folester41]

was woeful today, worst on for us id say, only because he did poor things, whereas vickery did nothing.

 

[NQTIGER]

But but but he is a developing ruckman............and whe he couldnt or wouldnt lay a shepherd for jake king in the third quarter healy and taylor hung him......