Angus Graham

[_RT_]

Seems to be plenty of discussion going on as to just how well or poorly Gus is travelling so far this year. So rather than have the topic continue to be brought up I thought why not have a specific thread to discuss the big fella.

To start off lets have a good look at how he is fairing against other ruckmen. To do this I've gone for those who have had at least 2 games and 50 hitouts. The players that qualified for the list are Sandilands Hudson McEvoy Ottens Renouf Jolly Brogan Cox Jamar Leuenberger Naitanui Warnock Mumford Hampson Goldstein & Bellchambers. As you can see there is a pretty good mix of young and experienced ruckmen.

What the comparison shows is that Graham currently sits:

• 13th for disposals per game with 10.5, Cox leads with 20.8
• 7th for marks with 3.5, Cox leads with 5.3
• 6th for hitouts with 27.8, Cox leads with 34.3
• 1st for tackles with 6.0, next best is Mumford with 5.5, interesting to see Cox and Sandilands both average under 2.
• 9th for total frees for with 6, Brogan leads with 15
• 4th for total frees against with 9, Jolly leads with 11(has only 2 FF)
• =5th for total goals with 2, Cox leads with 4.

Stats were taken from here: http://www.finalsiren.com/PlayerCom...795,1942,1864,&Compare=Go&Sort=PlayerName Asc

Looking at those numbers it would be fair to suggest that Graham isn't travelling anywhere near as badly as some here would have you believe. Especially when you consider that Gus is still pretty raw(just turned 24 and yet to play 40 games of footy) and is still learning when and where he needs to run to be a truly dangerous ruckman.

Its interesting to look back over the careers of guys like Sandilands Cox Jolly Jamar & Hudson and see that it took these guys until they had played at least 60-100 games before they started putting up the types of numbers that Graham is currently averaging this year.

Now I'm not suggesting that Graham is going to be better than what these guys have been, more that as a young ruckman I believe that Graham is progressing quite nicely and is showing some real promising signs for the future.

 

[Wallaby]

Stats are one thing. It's impact on the game that counts - and Graham doesn't have much at the moment. Not saying he won't get there, I agree he is improving.

But when was the last time he tapped down to one of our mids to make a clean break from a stoppage? When was the last time he grabbed a big pack mark?

He doesn't make decisive plays - right now. Hopefully, that will change.

 

[_RT_]

Stats are one thing. It's impact on the game that counts - and Graham doesn't have much at the moment. Not saying he won't get there, I agree he is improving.

But when was the last time he tapped down to one of our mids to make a clean break from a stoppage? When was the last time he grabbed a big pack mark?

He doesn't make decisive plays - right now. Hopefully, that will change.

How often do you think guys like Sandilands Cox Jolly and co were doing that in their first 50 games? I would suspect the answer would be much the same as what Graham is doing now.

Thats the thing people seem to forget when comparing him to these experienced types, none of them came into the league and simply dominated from the start. It took them years to learn how to be the players they currently are and yet there seems to be a number of posters on here who expect Graham to be able to match what these guys are doing. By seasons end Graham should have around 50-60 games under his belt and judging by how the careers of guys like Cox Sandilands Jolly and co progressed thats when we should start seeing the best of him. As I said in the OP, the signs he is showing are pretty good, just a shame that people seem to only focus on the things that he isn't doing as well.

 

[tugga]

Gus doesn't have that killer instinct. I can see the lack of it intensity in the way he moves and the way he plays. He won't be the type of dominant ruckman we need when we are pressing.
Just my opinion.

 

[Wallaby]

Oh, I agree he is improving. I guess we are all a but frustrated because we'd like to see him doing what he's doing as the second ruck rather than the main man. I know it's not his fault he's been stuck with the job too early, but at the moment he's not a No 1 ruckman. We haven't had one since Stafford.

As I said, hopefully he's on the right path.

 

[TheProwler]

Stats, stats, stats......

There seems a big emphasis in footy now in tackles. A bloke can have 10 tackles in a game but not have a great impact. Tackles can indicate a players work rate or the fact that they are second to the ball, ie beaten. Gus as the OP quoted is 1st out of the rucks with 6 from his four games. Does this really indicate how he has run down a player (ala Fletcher vs Garlett) or the fact that he is slow in moving to the ball and gets there after his opponent has taken possession? I would suggest for a ruckman that a tackle indicates a player who failed to hit the ball to advantage has simply wrapped up the opposing ruck or another player trying to get the ball. That is probably why both Cox & Sandy are the lowest

I watched both Luenburger and Clark last night compete again and again and place pressure on the saints. I struggle to recall a time when Gus has ever really done this for more than once or twice a game.

Coming home last friday listening to the first qtr against the pies the commentators were astounded that Gus who was in a fwd pocket failed to take an easy overhead mark against a small defender. They described his effort as ordinary and said he lacked presence. Now I didn't see this contest so I can only take their word for it. He also got a mention on one of the footy shows monday night for his effort and particularly when he allowed Brown to just run off and take a mark in the goal square.

Gus biggest issue isn't just his rucking but his work rate and presence around the ground. Something we have struggled with for several seasons now is our kick ins after the opposition scores a behind. Rarely do I see Gus present and demand he ball like opposition rucks seem to do & 3.5 marks a game for such a big fella is really not that great when you consider how he should be dominating this stat.

Look I like Gus but at this stage he just isn't a first ruck in the AFL as he has more weaknesses than his opposition. I wonder how many of his 27.8 hitouts per game are to advantage?

 

[NQTIGER]

RT is there a stat for tripping over your own feet and falling to the ground?

As you know there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Even our prime minister tells us that she has been given amandate to lead by the australian public, but then again so does bob brown.

 

[Bruce Monteath]

I don't think he'll ever be as good as premiership ruckman Cox but I think he can at least be the equal of premiership ruckman Jolly.

I agree he needs to lift his intensity around the park though. But I could name a number of our players who who could say the same thing about.

 

[Bazzar]

I wonder how many of his 27.8 hitouts per game are to advantage?

Effective Hitouts. All the top 6 have played 4 games.

Totals - Averages. (age/games in brackets)

1st Jamar - 61 - 15.2 (27 - 99)
2nd Sandilands - 56 - 14 (28 - 160)
3rd Mumford - 55 - 13.8 (24 - 46)
4th Cox - 52 - 13 (29 - 206)
5th Warnock 48 - 12 (24 - 37)
6th Gus 45 - 11.2 (24 - 37)

Jamar, Sandilands and Cox clearly ahead on age and experience.

Mumford, Warnock and Gus almost identical in age and games with Mumford the standout and Gus holding his own with Warnock, who along with Gus has only taken 1 contested mark.

And comparing total hitouts to a 24yo Stafford he averaged 19.9 to Gus 26.
No idea of Staffs eff hitouts.

Gus is coming along nicely and will be our number 1 ruck for years to come.

 

[TJTIGER]

Experience/ game time + Size,weight/ competing with confidence will equal improvement in Gus. He is still young by ruck standards & certainly lacks experience in total games by any standard. He'll get better.

P.s Nice write up RT73 cheers

 

[_RT_]

Stats, stats, stats......

There seems a big emphasis in footy now in tackles. A bloke can have 10 tackles in a game but not have a great impact. Tackles can indicate a players work rate or the fact that they are second to the ball, ie beaten. Gus as the OP quoted is 1st out of the rucks with 6 from his four games. Does this really indicate how he has run down a player (ala Fletcher vs Garlett) or the fact that he is slow in moving to the ball and gets there after his opponent has taken possession? I would suggest for a ruckman that a tackle indicates a player who failed to hit the ball to advantage has simply wrapped up the opposing ruck or another player trying to get the ball. That is probably why both Cox & Sandy are the lowest

Yet I can pretty much say without a doubt that if Gus wasn't averaging 6 tackles a game people would be on here saying that is another area that he lets the side down in.

I watched both Luenburger and Clark last night compete again and again and place pressure on the saints. I struggle to recall a time when Gus has ever really done this for more than once or twice a game.

Big difference there, Clark & Leuenberger play on the same team, Gus pretty much rucks ~ 90% of the game on his own often finding himself up against 2 opponents, bit hard for a bloke to be constantly putting pressure on when he knows that he has to run himself into the ground week after week.

Coming home last friday listening to the first qtr against the pies the commentators were astounded that Gus who was in a fwd pocket failed to take an easy overhead mark against a small defender. They described his effort as ordinary and said he lacked presence. Now I didn't see this contest so I can only take their word for it. He also got a mention on one of the footy shows monday night for his effort and particularly when he allowed Brown to just run off and take a mark in the goal square.

Wasn't the greatest effort I'll admit, but I put it down to the fact that he has just pushed forward for a break and was probably knackered, hopefully its something that improves as his fitness improves.

Gus biggest issue isn't just his rucking but his work rate and presence around the ground. Something we have struggled with for several seasons now is our kick ins after the opposition scores a behind. Rarely do I see Gus present and demand he ball like opposition rucks seem to do & 3.5 marks a game for such a big fella is really not that great when you consider how he should be dominating this stat.

Of all the ruckmen I mentioned Gus is averaging more marks per game than Jamar Brogan Jolly Bellchambers Warnock Hampson Naitanui Renouf & Mumford. In fact not one of them ones I mentioned is dominating when it comes to taking marks. As for his workrate again I'll point out that he currently rucks ~90% of the game, the only other ones that would do similar sort of work are Sandilands Ottens and Hudson who are all well into their careers.

Look I like Gus but at this stage he just isn't a first ruck in the AFL as he has more weaknesses than his opposition. I wonder how many of his 27.8 hitouts per game are to advantage?

Remember Gus is still only just starting his 4th season of playing at this level and 5th season overall. As I said earlier it took most of the top flight ruckmen a good 60+ games before they really started to hit their straps, to me that suggests that Gus has at least this season and perhaps even next season worth of development to go before he reaches that same number of games. Which is pretty much on par with when the club expects to start making a run at playing finals.

 

[Goldust]

AS The Prowler says .... stats, stats, stats!
Can be twisted and manipulated any which way you want to suit your argument. I often laugh at the very mention of 'stats' on here. Certain posters will present a multitude of stats on a given player they favour to espouse their worth, yet when stats are mentioned in relation to another player they don't like it's the ol' 'stats are misleading'.
Ditto for the 'young and developing' argument. Simply put other young and developing players at other clubs are stepping up to the plate and making an impact, yet we'll hide behind it.
Here's one thing the stats won't tell you about Gus ..... he lacks presence and intimidation. Manhandled against the Hawks and Pies ... his work at boundary throw ins in particular was sub-par!
Mumford is the same age as Gus, who would you seriously rather have????
We'll settle for the 13th highest possession winner in Graham ... yeah and we'll continue to remain at 13th or 14th on the ladder!

 

[Bazzar]

Manhandled against the Hawks and Pies ... his work at boundary throw ins in particular was sub-par!

His 3rd qtr against the Hawks (same as most of out team) was excelent, he dominated. And he also in Malthouses words "slaughtered" them in the ruck.

We are a bottom 4 team who is winless with a 24 yo 37 game emerging ruck and all the pork chops are carrying on how crap he is. In all seriousness Goldy, how do you think Lade would rate his progress so far?

And stats, stats, stats, well it may surprise you that the whole game revolves around stats. Every game is pulled apart statistically by the coaching staff, TV print and radio experts, and this will also surprise you, lots and lots of supporters.

 

[The Rusty Trombone]

I'm fine with Gus as he still developing and needs another preseason of running and body change under his belt.

He'll be fine. Only played 40 odd games. Can't wait till he's played 80.

 

[Sterge]

the problem is how much have his stats been skewed by the pies not having a ruckman last week?

 

[_RT_]

AS The Prowler says .... stats, stats, stats!
Can be twisted and manipulated any which way you want to suit your argument. I often laugh at the very mention of 'stats' on here. Certain posters will present a multitude of stats on a given player they favour to espouse their worth, yet when stats are mentioned in relation to another player they don't like it's the ol' 'stats are misleading'.
Ditto for the 'young and developing' argument. Simply put other young and developing players at other clubs are stepping up to the plate and making an impact, yet we'll hide behind it.
Here's one thing the stats won't tell you about Gus ..... he lacks presence and intimidation. Manhandled against the Hawks and Pies ... his work at boundary throw ins in particular was sub-par!
Mumford is the same age as Gus, who would you seriously rather have????
We'll settle for the 13th highest possession winner in Graham ... yeah and we'll continue to remain at 13th or 14th on the ladder!

Mumford v Graham:
11.3(12th) possessions 10.5(13th)
3.3(15th) kicks 5.3(8th)
8(10th) handballs 5.2(13th)
2.5(12th) marks 3.5(7th)
30.3(5th) hitouts 27.8(6th)

Does that mean that had we got 12th highest Mumford we'd move up to 11th-12th?

Looking at Mumfords raw stats he isn't travelling that much better than Graham and yet the majority of posters here sink the slipper into Graham whenever the opportunity arises.

As for other young and developing players at other clubs, just who are they? Surely you're not talking about someone like Naitanui who happens to have Cox there to carry most of the load while he gets to learn the caper. Perhaps you mean Leuenberger who has Clark as well as McCauley to give him a chop out. The only other young ruckman who is doing it as tough as Graham has been doing is McEvoy at the Saints and when you look at them there isn't that much difference between the impact either of them are having.

 

[Goldust]

His 3rd qtr against the Hawks (same as most of out team) was excelent, he dominated. And he also in Malthouses words "slaughtered" them in the ruck.

We are a bottom 4 team who is winless with a 24 yo 37 game emerging ruck and all the pork chops are carrying on how crap he is. In all seriousness Goldy, how do you think Lade would rate his progress so far?

And stats, stats, stats, well it may surprise you that the whole game revolves around stats. Every game is pulled apart statistically by the coaching staff, TV print and radio experts, and this will also surprise you, lots and lots of supporters.

Who is more effective, the forward pocket who slots five goals from his seven kicks, or the midfielder who gets it 17 times and turns it over 7 times???
Stats can suit any argument!! How many of Gus' hitouts are effective???
Entitled to your opinion, but I think Gus is soft and lacks presence!

 

[Goldust]

Mumford v Graham:
11.3(12th) possessions 10.5(13th)
3.3(15th) kicks 5.3(8th)
8(10th) handballs 5.2(13th)
2.5(12th) marks 3.5(7th)
30.3(5th) hitouts 27.8(6th)

Does that mean that had we got 12th highest Mumford we'd move up to 11th-12th?

Looking at Mumfords raw stats he isn't travelling that much better than Graham and yet the majority of posters here sink the slipper into Graham whenever the opportunity arises.

As for other young and developing players at other clubs, just who are they? Surely you're not talking about someone like Naitanui who happens to have Cox there to carry most of the load while he gets to learn the caper. Perhaps you mean Leuenberger who has Clark as well as McCauley to give him a chop out. The only other young ruckman who is doing it as tough as Graham has been doing is McEvoy at the Saints and when you look at them there isn't that much difference between the impact either of them are having.

AGAIN, Mumford has presence and physicality. Graham meek!
Leunberger is one, Ryder another. Warnock, may have heard of him!
McEvoy a joke!

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

The stats guys have presented their evidence as to gus' development compared to cox et al and its pretty compelling.

So, where is the evidence that gus' "presence and intimidation" factor at 24 is any worse than cox et al at 24? Show me some footage of cox doing something at 24 or younger that gus hasn't done. At least give some examples. I think you guys are trying to find something wrong with Gus so we can go back to drafting 2nd hand spuds. For every Stafford, there is a Knobel, a cartledge and a ben marsh.

 

[_RT_]

AGAIN, Mumford has presence and physicality. Graham meek!
Leunberger is one, Ryder another. Warnock, may have heard of him!
McEvoy a joke!

Graham only averages 6 tackles compared to Mumfords 5.5. Mumford has performed 14 1%ers Graham has performed 10, so yeah you're right Graham clearly lacks physicality and presence out on the ground.

As I mentioned Leuenberger has some decent help in the form of Clark when he needs a rest and even McCauley, Ryder has Bellchambers and will have Hille back to share the load with and Warnock has had Hampson to rotate with. Gus has pretty much been asked to carry our ruck duties on his own with the occassional 2-3 minute break by Vickery.

 

[MR]

I am hating how everybody digs into big Gus. He works bloody hard every week and has to play nearly a full game running around trying to make every contest. At the moment, he is our best offer, Andrew Browne wouldn't do a better job and we need Vicks playing up forward.

Every player has their faults and from what I have seen, Gus has beaten all of his opponents, head to head.

 

[partycorolla]

RT is there a stat for tripping over your own feet and falling to the ground?

As you know there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Even our prime minister tells us that she has been given amandate to lead by the australian public, but then again so does bob brown.

Please don't ever compare the Prime Minister with one of our beloved players.... ever ever again. I demand a retraction.

She is ruling due to the way governments are elected not because of football statistics.

 

[partycorolla]

He needs time. 37 games is a stupid, ridiculous time to be making calls on whether he makes it or not. Some of you may not remember but Sandilands was regarded as a joke until a few seasons ago. Big lumbering bloke who couldn't do anything except a few tapouts...

We don't have a better first option at the moment in any event. Vickery isn't big enough to be first ruck for the whole season. Browne seems to be a poor man's Mark Blake (do we really want that in the team?) and Derickx is unproven as yet and to throw him into the first ruck position is not wise until he has proven himself (which may not happen).

Stats can be used any which way but funnily enough if you go to any football game, at least at a senior level, the coaches use stats, the players use stats and as someone has pointed out, so do supporters.

This debate really needs to be revisited once he's played 60-80-100 games because then we will know.

 

[Goldust]

Graham only averages 6 tackles compared to Mumfords 5.5. Mumford has performed 14 1%ers Graham has performed 10, so yeah you're right Graham clearly lacks physicality and presence out on the ground.

As I mentioned Leuenberger has some decent help in the form of Clark when he needs a rest and even McCauley, Ryder has Bellchambers and will have Hille back to share the load with and Warnock has had Hampson to rotate with. Gus has pretty much been asked to carry our ruck duties on his own with the occassional 2-3 minute break by Vickery.

And here's a stat for ya ... Mumford is in the midst of being a key mover and shaker and influential reason in a second straight top eight finish for the Swans ... while Gus is spluttering our charge towards another bottom four finish.
While we accept mediocrity in our ranks, the collective will be mediocre!

 

[TheProwler]

Yet I can pretty much say without a doubt that if Gus wasn't averaging 6 tackles a game people would be on here saying that is another area that he lets the side down in.


Big difference there, Clark & Leuenberger play on the same team, Gus pretty much rucks ~ 90% of the game on his own often finding himself up against 2 opponents, bit hard for a bloke to be constantly putting pressure on when he knows that he has to run himself into the ground week after week.


Wasn't the greatest effort I'll admit, but I put it down to the fact that he has just pushed forward for a break and was probably knackered, hopefully its something that improves as his fitness improves.


Of all the ruckmen I mentioned Gus is averaging more marks per game than Jamar Brogan Jolly Bellchambers Warnock Hampson Naitanui Renouf & Mumford. In fact not one of them ones I mentioned is dominating when it comes to taking marks. As for his workrate again I'll point out that he currently rucks ~90% of the game, the only other ones that would do similar sort of work are Sandilands Ottens and Hudson who are all well into their careers.


Remember Gus is still only just starting his 4th season of playing at this level and 5th season overall. As I said earlier it took most of the top flight ruckmen a good 60+ games before they really started to hit their straps, to me that suggests that Gus has at least this season and perhaps even next season worth of development to go before he reaches that same number of games. Which is pretty much on par with when the club expects to start making a run at playing finals.

WOW you have an excuse for everything

You forgot to add that he is only in his second season as our #1 ruck and first season as #1 ruck with the new bench rules requirng him to run harder & longer

Make up as many excuses as you like to back up his stats but in end the stats wont get you four points. Seriously the over hype on stats is ridiculous, I recall only a season or so back when Bowden was racking up the stats most on here wanted him gone.

Yes he might only be 24 and we all know that rucks dont mature until the mid to high 20's but he needs to cover so many deficiencies that the stats hide before he will become a true ruckman.

To add some perspective do yourself a favour and have a think for a moment if you would be happy if he played elsewhere and we were looking at bringing him to the club? I doubt the majority on this board who rate him so high would be happy for us to trade to dearly for him.