Are our draft picks really that bad?

[thecotch]

I just sit and wonder why is it we haven't been able to develop one single superstar marquee player over the last 5 or 6 years considering how crap we've been and how many high picks we've had.

Yes not all of them work out but looking at a lot of other clubs and they seem to have been able to "bring on" their picks.

A few that spring to mind.

Cooney
Griffen
buddy
roughead
lewis
selwood
palmer
murphy
gibbs

We did not introduce one new kid on thursday night apart from browne and he clearly looked way out of his depth and a million miles away from standard.

Is is fair to say that we are simply crap at developing young kids rather than picking the wrong ones to begin with?

 

[Pugnosis]

I really do believe that development is a really weak area. I also reckon our club culture has a lot to answer for. Whether that is the pressure from us the supporters (eating our own) or the fact that we have been the worst performed club in the past 25 years.

I reckon we have had several players that have shown a bit in their first year - only for the club culture to slowly grind them to a halt. I am hoping that Thursday night's effort from Lids was an aberration rather than become the norm. Lets hope this does not happen to Cotch either.

Leadership is a big part of it too. We have drafted too many players who I believe are happy with an AFL career rather than try to become a top 10, top 20 in the league type player.

 

[nut]

I just sit and wonder why is it we haven't been able to develop one single superstar marquee player over the last 5 or 6 years considering how crap we've been and how many high picks we've had.

Yes not all of them work out but looking at a lot of other clubs and they seem to have been able to "bring on" their picks.

A few that spring to mind.

Cooney
Griffen
buddy
roughead
lewis
selwood
palmer
murphy
gibbs

We did not introduce one new kid on thursday night apart from browne and he clearly looked way out of his depth and a million miles away from standard.

Is is fair to say that we are simply crap at developing young kids rather than picking the wrong ones to begin with?

Gee, I mean Delidio is crap, so is Jack, Cotchin when fit will also struggle, Foley has shown nothing, Moore,Thusrfield and Mcguane are all hopeless down back.... ???
We got thumped in 1 game.... it happens. Move on.

 

[PHX]

What a bizarre thread.

I could flip the coin over and give you all the dud picks that have come from the same clubs and the thread would still be narrow-sighted, irrelevant and entirely shithouse.

 

[tugga]

The so-called Fab 5, hasn't exactly lived up to expectations, though.
5 top 20 picks and so far only Deledio has delivered. Meyer is gone, Polo continues to play VFL (although he shouldn't be), Pattison struggling and Tambling borderline.

 

[eays]

one of the major reasons why we havent had success is player development when they get to the club. For the most part, its not like we're drafting unknowns or hacks, especially these days (i'm talking about the youngsters here, not trades like McMuppet). These kids come to the club as top juniors, and then fail to develop. They cant all be hacks, you can excuse one or two as being poor drafting, but not all of them. They come as top juniors, and fail to develop to their potential. Something has gotta be wrong with the club.

Many of us have been around footy and cricket clubs (local level, juniors etc) to know how they basically run. RFC is just a bigger version with more $ running tthrough it. If top kids come to the club and consistently dont kick on, well that means something is wrong with the club.

I reckon Deledio is the perfect example. Yes he is a good player. But he has all the tools to be a top 5 player in the competition, yet he is not. A while back i was talking with a bloke who follows juniors etc and was quite intimately involved with Deledio as a junior and at school. He said he was extremely surprised by Deledio's lack of development so far. He said at juniors Deledio was so far ahead of his peers it wasnt funny, that he would take apart games like few other juniours he had seen (this guy has seen a lot, beleive me) and that he was on par with a certain C Judd as a dominate junior. And yet Deledio is not taking games by the balls and tearing them apart now. Judd was a certified gun by yr 3, Deledio is not in year 5 and whilst a good and certainly above average player, he is not a superstar.

If the problems with our club are as entrenched as some believe, the only way out of this is a compelte and total clean out. Need to start from scratch. The cancer must be removed.

Cheers.

PS- on deledio, this guy also mentioned that one shortcoming he always had was his confidence/self belief. He always kinda lacked the "killer" instinct, and he needed to have his confidence boosted by those around him so he could beliecve in himself and believe himself to be the best player and therefore go out and take a game by the cruff of the neck and take charge. Not saying this is still an issue, but if people at junior level can see that then you really hope the coaches at RFC can as well, otherwise thats another indictment on their ability.

 

[thecotch]

Gee, I mean Delidio is crap, so is Jack, Cotchin when fit will also struggle, Foley has shown nothing, Moore,Thusrfield and Mcguane are all hopeless down back.... ???
We got thumped in 1 game.... it happens. Move on.

Nut, look behind the facade for a change. Our kids are being destroyed by this muppet coaching panel. i never said our kids were crap. I just pointed out that we don't appear to developing any genuine superstars from the current crop, particularly ones from the 05 draft. Look at griffen yesterday, cooney, buddy, lewis, selwood, roughead etc. These kids are taking the required steps to superstardom.

 

[thecotch]

What a bizarre thread.

I could flip the coin over and give you all the dud picks that have come from the same clubs and the thread would still be narrow-sighted, irrelevant and entirely shithouse.

PHX, fair point but who exactly would you rate as being the next genuine superstar on our list? Cotchin possibly. Deledio? Plenty of talent but is his attitude right? Seems to just cruise to me. Hasn't really torn a game apart yet. The others? Forget it.

 

[beaver fever]

Genuine stars, pfft just give me a decent bunch of well rounded players with good kicking skills. We have Cotchin, Deledio, Riewoldt, Moore, Thursfield, Cousins, Connors and Collins. The rest have at least one glaring deficiency that holds them back to varying degrees. Yes our draft picks are that bad, and it demonstrates the folly of taking too few, because too few are required to make the grade. 5-6 kids a year should be taken.

 

[krustyman]

only cotchin ,deledio, foley and maybe raines are above average, the rest have struggled to find any consistency. one problem is they are moved to different positions like musical chair each year. they become jack of all trades and master of none. other clubs dont experiment until they become good.

 

[Rayzorwire]

I just sit and wonder why is it we haven't been able to develop one single superstar marquee player over the last 5 or 6 years considering how crap we've been and how many high picks we've had.

Yes not all of them work out but looking at a lot of other clubs and they seem to have been able to "bring on" their picks.

A few that spring to mind.

Cooney
Griffen
buddy
roughead
lewis
selwood
palmer
murphy
gibbs

We did not introduce one new kid on thursday night apart from browne and he clearly looked way out of his depth and a million miles away from standard.

Is is fair to say that we are simply crap at developing young kids rather than picking the wrong ones to begin with?

No, it wouldn't be fair to say that because we've had some exceptional development results with players no other club saw much, or any potential in.

If we accept (as you seem to be suggesting) that there is a level of 'expected development' which goes with each draft pick based on how high or low they were taken, then while *some* of our higher ones have not reached expectation, numerous lower ones have gone way beyond expectation.

Does anyone seriously think that JON would be a regular AFL player by now at a different club?

That Meyer would be in the established best-22 of a club that plays finals?

That Pattison would be tearing it up at some other club?

That Tambling would be in Brownlow contention?

As for picking the wrong players, every club does that to some degree, but the reality is that the better your list gets, the better you can tailor selections to meet existing deficiencies, and the more you can take risks which bring massive rewards.

Back in the '04 draft we started off with nothing but list deficiencies.

We didn't have the luxury of gambling that a player like Franklin would become a superstar, when the research strongly indicated he may well have been a first round selection who never plays 50 games, or is a totally unmanageable sulk artist with a head the size of inner-Melbourne who causes nothing but internal problems and bad headlines.

In many ways we've taken safer options because we had to get *something* out of as many of our draft picks as we could, otherwise the list - particularly our depth - would not improve at all.

 

[thecotch]

No, it wouldn't be fair to say that because we've had some exceptional development results with players no other club saw much, or any potential in.

If we accept (as you seem to be suggesting) that there is a level of 'expected development' which goes with each draft pick based on how high or low they were taken, then while *some* of our higher ones have not reached expectation, numerous lower ones have gone way beyond expectation.

Does anyone seriously think that JON would be a regular AFL player by now at a different club?

That Meyer would be in the established best-22 of a club that plays finals?

That Pattison would be tearing it up at some other club?

That Tambling would be in Brownlow contention?

As for picking the wrong players, every club does that to some degree, but the reality is that the better your list gets, the better you can tailor selections to meet existing deficiencies, and the more you can take risks which bring massive rewards.

Back in the '04 draft we started off with nothing but list deficiencies.

We didn't have the luxury of gambling that a player like Franklin would become a superstar, when the research strongly indicated he may well have been a first round selection who never plays 50 games, or is a totally unmanageable sulk artist with a head the size of inner-Melbourne who causes nothing but internal problems and bad headlines.

In many ways we've taken safer options because we had to get *something* out of as many of our draft picks as we could, otherwise the list - particularly our depth - would not improve at all.

Great post. I don't agree with all of it but a pretty good summation all up. I'm still looking for the next richo-superstar type though. A marquee player who will sell the club to the faithfull.

 

[Barnzy]

Yes our draft picks have been deplorable. No point to start tanking if our season goes to the shit because we would manage to pick the wrong players anyways.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

As I've stated the key is Deledio...fact is we got the best player from that draft...unfortunately it is not he , but the "risky unstable twat" that has so far played the best football in the best team....people who think it's all down to our "poor drafting" and not down to our crap development are kidding themselves....Deledio should be mentioned in the same breath as Hodge, Ablett and Franklin by now, he has the talent and there should be little debate...that he isn't is an indictment on our coaching staff.....it's only a complete simpleton who thinks we just constantly picked duds with no skills, any 5 year old could connect the dots and work out the real problem....

 

[AlexRance]

Great post. I don't agree with all of it but a pretty good summation all up. I'm still looking for the next richo-superstar type though. A marquee player who will sell the club to the faithfull.

I 2nd that

 

[Barnzy]

As I've stated the key is Deledio...fact is we got the best player from that draft...unfortunately it is not he , but the "risky unstable twat" that has so far played the best football in the best team....people who think it's all down to our "poor drafting" and not down to our crap development are kidding themselves....Deledio should be mentioned in the same breath as Hodge, Ablett and Franklin by now, he has the talent and there should be little debate...that he isn't is an indictment on our coaching staff.....it's only a complete simpleton who thinks we just constantly picked duds with no skills, any 5 year old could connect the dots and work out the real problem....

Your an idiot if you think Deledio should be mentioned in the 'same breath' as Hodge and Ablett by now, they're both 24 and he is only 21. You're also an idiot if you think we don't have poor drafting with Deledio and Cotchin as the exception. Only part I agree with you on is we have poor development.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

Your an idiot if you think Deledio should be mentioned in the 'same breath' as Hodge and Ablett by now, they're both 24 and he is only 21. You're also an idiot if you think we don't have poor drafting with Deledio and Cotchin as the exception. Only part I agree with you on is we have poor development.

So you agree that it's poor development , but yet you reckon we've only drafted 2 good players in 5 years? Like I said..kidding yourself mate.
And Deledio's not a pup anymore pal ...he's in his 5th season...absolutely he should be mentioned in the same breath as those players....interesting you make that argument yet conveniently left out Franklin who I also mentioned.......tell me, how old is he, how long has he been playing? Who does he currently get mentioned in the same breath as?

 

[Barnzy]

So you agree that it's poor development , but yet you reckon we've only drafted 2 good players out if how many in 5 years? Like I said..kidding yourself mate.
And Deledio's not a pup anymore pal ...he's in his 5th season...absolutely he should be mentioned in the same breath as those players....interesting you make that argument yet conveniently left out Franklin who I also mentioned.......tell me, how old is he, how long has he been playing? Who does he currently get mentioned in the same breath as?

That part doesn't even make sense, you should look over that again. I said we have poor drafting and player development. Firstly drafting a player, you can instantly see if they have any potential. Most of the players we have drafted have/had major deficiencies. Franklin is only 21 but is really a freak, a one in a million, shouldn't be counted in discussion. Players don't normally hit top form at 21 which he hasn't and neither Deledio but he is still very good. Comparing him to a 24 year old is just unjust though at this point in time.

 

[W. Smithers]

When's the last time we've had a star player, that hasn't had a flaw?

Bowden has them, Richo, Simmonds does. We have no reliable veterans, whether it be kicking the important goals, or taking an uncontested mark.

I just hope our latest batch (maybe they have already) have any flaws ironed out. It's not looking good, Deledio is already getting the Brown/Bowden attitude of i'll play when the going is easy, Tambling got it in his first season, Raines can't kick.....

 

[cormick]

I just sit and wonder why is it we haven't been able to develop one single superstar marquee player over the last 5 or 6 years considering how crap we've been and how many high picks we've had.

Yes not all of them work out but looking at a lot of other clubs and they seem to have been able to "bring on" their picks.

A few that spring to mind.

Cooney
Griffen
buddy
roughead
lewis
selwood
palmer
murphy
gibbs

We did not introduce one new kid on thursday night apart from browne and he clearly looked way out of his depth and a million miles away from standard.

Is is fair to say that we are simply crap at developing young kids rather than picking the wrong ones to begin with?

Funny that you put in Murphy and Palmer, but not Foley, and that you put in Lewis, Roughead and Gibbs but not Deledio.
Funny that you bring up Cooney from the 2003 draft, when all other players just about have flopped thus far. We didn't have a shot at Cooney, and just about every club flopped with that draft. Why is it that the Bulldogs can't draft guns with every high pick, or develop them well, like Farren Ray?

 

[cormick]

When's the last time we've had a star player, that hasn't had a flaw?

Bowden has them, Richo, Simmonds does. We have no reliable veterans, whether it be kicking the important goals, or taking an uncontested mark.

I just hope our latest batch (maybe they have already) have any flaws ironed out. It's not looking good, Deledio is already getting the Brown/Bowden attitude of i'll play when the going is easy, Tambling got it in his first season, Raines can't kick.....

Funny you say that; Franklin and Riewoldt can't kick, and they're two of the best players in the league.

 

[thecotch]

Funny that you put in Murphy and Palmer, but not Foley, and that you put in Lewis, Roughead and Gibbs but not Deledio.
Funny that you bring up Cooney from the 2003 draft, when all other players just about have flopped thus far. We didn't have a shot at Cooney, and just about every club flopped with that draft. Why is it that the Bulldogs can't draft guns with every high pick, or develop them well, like Farren Ray?

My list isn't exhaustive nor is it perfect mate so take a breath. All im trying to say is that our current crop of recent draftees don't appear to be developing as well as those at other clubs of similar age. Foley was a rookie and I have to say his second half last year, his preseason form and his output on Thus night have been average. Was one of our better players on Thurs night but his disposal is ordinary. Deledio has not come on so far but given he is still only 21 is enough to save any criticism. I won't discuss tambling because he's not even close to lids in terms of output.

 

[thecotch]

Funny you say that; Franklin and Riewoldt can't kick, and they're two of the best players in the league.

Defining a player as perfect is a difficult thing to do. I guess ablett and judd probably come as close to it as they can. I can't think of any real weakness in either of them.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

That part doesn't even make sense, you should look over that again. I said we have poor drafting and player development. Firstly drafting a player, you can instantly see if they have any potential. Most of the players we have drafted have/had major deficiencies. Franklin is only 21 but is really a freak, a one in a million, shouldn't be counted in discussion. Players don't normally hit top form at 21 which he hasn't and neither Deledio but he is still very good. Comparing him to a 24 year old is just unjust though at this point in time.

Most draftees have at least one glaring deficiency...mainly because they are kids and inexperienced....Franklin still has a glaring deficiency in goal kicking...usually a good club, helps them either overcome or at least minimise it's impact their game , we only seem to exacerbate them in our kids, we rarely fix them, too many of them just stagnate and don't seem to learn, the lazy ones like Connors, Hughes & Meyer seem to stay lazy or have attitude problems. Graham goes backwards from being a prospect to the point that he's now considered a joke. Even JON has shown glimpses(go watch the the last quarters of his two senior games last year if you don't believe me) but still treads water at best. We couldn't turn Collard around, generally agreed to be a naturally gifted player. Gourdis gets delisted than re-rookied after one season. Putt stuck in thirds. As was pointed out elsewhere, our players rarely return from the pre-season looking much bigger. Then there's the injuries we seem to get in the off season, the previous year being the exception than the rule. That's poor development and coaching, not poor drafting. Most have problems that are easily fixed, not major handicaps.Poor drafting doesn't explain the way we played last Thursday night, that stunk of poor attitude and lack of mental toughness and application. Those things are the responsibility of the staff at the training track , not the staff at the trade table.

And I don't agree with the popular exertion that Franklin is a one in a million freak because I don't think Richo is..and Franklin is nothing more than what Richo would've been had he played in a good side and had a better work ethic(i.e. actually bothered with second efforts) for the first 3/4 of his career. Both , big ,strong , athletic and incredibly agile for their size , both dodgy in front of goal. Richo is a better mark, Franklin has a better sidestep, but unlike Richo he also has his leads regularly honoured , a team working for him and a decent foil in Roughead....had Richo had all those luxuries from the start , he would have well over 1000 goals , Coleman's out his arse and more importantly, we'd have more recent Premierships.

 

[Heisenberg_]

only cotchin ,deledio, foley and maybe raines are above average, the rest have struggled to find any consistency. one problem is they are moved to different positions like musical chair each year. they become jack of all trades and master of none. other clubs dont experiment until they become good.

Don't ever put Raines in that group, he is a good kick just like Tivendale was. Poor skills and poor decision making