Beams, Wellingham, Sidebottom

[Bay Pie]

Understand where you are coming from Dundalis.

The big advantage Wellers has over the others is his leg speed.

But I won't shy away from Sideys' likeness to Bartel at the same age. I don't think Bartel plays alot as an inside mid. Admittedly, they play mainly with Selwood, Ablett, Ling and Corey as inside mids. Fair talent therer and Bartel fills in gaps where he is needed most. I know he can play inside and is very underrated by many, not me, and I also love Bartels' kicking but can see Sidey growing into that type of role. Whether he is better then the other eventually I don't know, but remember Wellers is in his 4th year, Beams & Sidey 2nd year players.

I'm just glad we have all 3.

 

[Elite]

Its actually not all that common in the afl to see players with amazingly clean hands in close, and with players breathing down your neck.
Sharrod's had this skill from day one. Infact some of the things I've seen him do, I dont think I've seen at collingwood, well for a very long time anyway.


potentially the best midfield we've had, ever???

 

[rose jam]

potentially the best midfield we've had, ever???

1990
Tony Francis, Scott Russell, Mick McGuane, Darren Millane, Graeme Wright, Tony Shaw, Gavin Brown


That's be tough to beat

 

[Quicky]

I'm a massive Wellingham fan Dundalis but there are several areas of his game in which he doesn't excel. His decision making by foot can be inconsistent, he fades out of games (not sure if this is mental or endurance), he is sometimes selfish, and he still needs to show greater consistency both over four quarters and a season (although he is beginning to do this). For instance he strung together five great games last year before fading badly - he'd at five so far this year so it'll be interesting if he can keep it up.

 

[Dundalis]

I'm a massive Wellingham fan Dundalis but there are several areas of his game in which he doesn't excel. His decision making by foot can be inconsistent, he fades out of games (not sure if this is mental or endurance), he is sometimes selfish, and he still needs to show greater consistency both over four quarters and a season (although he is beginning to do this). For instance he strung together five great games last year before fading badly - he'd at five so far this year so it'll be interesting if he can keep it up.

I said he lacks nothing athletically or skillwise. Everything you mentioned are mental things. All things which he has improved on dramatically over the last 2 or so years. No reason why he won't continue to improve.

I've talked Wellingham up since his first season, but have always called him out for his poor concentration levels, and seeming disinterest for parts of games. He's lackadaisical out on the field, Pendlebury like in many ways, but unlike Pendlebury who always kept running and presenting, he didn't. This season has shown a change. This season he has not fallen out of games. In fact Pendlebury has fallen out of games far more than Wellingham has. His decision making and 3rd and 4th efforts still require work, but I have mentioned this all through my posts in this thread. He has all the unteachable tools which the other two can't learn. These mental flaws in his game can most certainly be improved.

 

[Dundalis]

Understand where you are coming from Dundalis.

The big advantage Wellers has over the others is his leg speed.

But I won't shy away from Sideys' likeness to Bartel at the same age. I don't think Bartel plays alot as an inside mid. Admittedly, they play mainly with Selwood, Ablett, Ling and Corey as inside mids. Fair talent therer and Bartel fills in gaps where he is needed most. I know he can play inside and is very underrated by many, not me, and I also love Bartels' kicking but can see Sidey growing into that type of role. Whether he is better then the other eventually I don't know, but remember Wellers is in his 4th year, Beams & Sidey 2nd year players.

I'm just glad we have all 3.

Honestly? Bartel is wasted in Geelong's side. When he won the Brownlow he was pretty much the best inside mid in the comp. He's as hard as anyone and will throw himself to the bottom of the pack without hesitation. That combined with his thumping long kick are enough to differentiate completely from Sidebottom for me. Sidebottom may develop more of an inside game, as I've mentioned as perhaps a Shane O'Bree type, but he will never be a genuine inside mid in that mold. Bartel is regarded as a top elite player, but not as good as if he were playing as a full time mid IMO (I think he'd be top 5 in the AFL), which he would in pretty much every other side in the comp.

The reason he isn't playing there full time as well, despite the quality of those other mids, is not because he isn't as good, it's because he's so versatile. Ablett is the superstar and their best player, but the other three aren't versatile enough to play the utility role Bartel does. So he's a victim of his versatility in that regard.

 

[mdc]

Yeah, I rate Bartel equally highly.

If he were to switch places with Lenny Hayes, people would be questioning whether he's better than Ablett (he's not, but you get my drift).

It's also why I would still love to avoid Geelong in the finals. No other side can even come close to matching them in terms of midfield talent, and ultimately that tends to be what wins finals.

 

[Zahki]

So what? I hear the line "bottom aged" trotted out with regularity, and I think it's a useless comment. Bottom aged means **** all. It's all about talent. Sidebottom has many useful abilities, but he also lacks many unteachable tools.

Sidebottom has the most important 'unteachable tool' though and that's a quick footy mind with good decision making. He'll overcome any physical deficiency with that alone. It's the classic 'footballer' vs 'athlete' decision. Personally I very highly rate any player who shows the awareness Sidebottom has, far more higly than any player who shows a bit of athleticism but who mentally can't keep up with the pace of the game.

He'll continue to improve as well, as he grows more confident. I think thats Sideys biggest problem at the moment, doesn't seem willing to back himself in and make a big play, all too often he'll dish it off sideways when he could've kicked it forward himself. But he'll learn and eventually he'll be prepared to take the game on like that.

If you were able to judge a players talent with 100% accuracy at 19 then Wellingham would be delisted and the draft would be an exact science. I'm really shocked you can blow off a player with his TAC Cup performance, and being BOG in a final in his debut year. Everything points to him being an above average player at the very least, so to compare him to a plodder like O'Bree is almost insulting.

 

[Jonno_]

Zahki is 100% correct.

The thing I like most about Sidebottom is the way he dictates play. When he has the play he almost always calls someone towards him, shows them where to lead. He has the play mapped out in his mind. I really like that, and theres not many 2nd year players with the confidence to do it either.

 

[TradeDraft]

Zahki is 100% correct.

The thing I like most about Sidebottom is the way he dictates play. When he has the play he almost always calls someone towards him, shows them where to lead. He has the play mapped out in his mind. I really like that, and theres not many 2nd year players with the confidence to do it either.

Spot On and you can't teach that and he shows leadership on the Ground by doing that too

 

[well left]

I reckon Sidebottom will go on to be a very good player for a number of years for us and will end up being a Lappin type at Brisbane in that he will be underrated as he will always be in the same side as Beams and Pendlebury like Lappin was with Black, Voss & Akermanis.

Wellingham could be anything and I think he is just starting to realise this. Has always looked like a player but maybe needed the kick of having his name in trade discussions to make him realise how much he wants it.

But for me, it's Beams. He is just so consistent and does the hard things you want him to do but then he goes and does something like fire a handball out of congestion straight on to the chest of someone he had no right to see and it just blows you away. He just has that something special that the elite players have.

But what would I know..... if you asked me 12 months ago I would have had McCarthy ahead of all of them. And I still think he could be if he can get on the park and into this very good and deep midfield we now possess.

 

[Quicky]

I said he lacks nothing athletically or skillwise. Everything you mentioned are mental things. All things which he has improved on dramatically over the last 2 or so years. No reason why he won't continue to improve.

I was referring to your quote below - I just got too lazy to quote it

I just think he's the total package basically, his only weakness is occasionally mental (but improving). He is good to excellent in pretty much every physical and technical (skill) area.

I'd consider endurance an athletic ability. Wellinghams penchant to fade late in games has me question whether this is an issue with Wellingham. It could be a concentration thing but the former seems just as if not more likely to me. His decision making and kicking can be an issue - he isn't consistent. This is a technical issue and maybe a concentration thing >> which may go back to the endurance query - it's hard to make good decisions and execute your skills if your knackered. Really though I think we're just arguing semantics here - we have a gem in Wellingham, off a rookie list , and thats what matters.

 

[Paddywhackers]

Yeah, I rate Bartel equally highly.

If he were to switch places with Lenny Hayes, people would be questioning whether he's better than Ablett (he's not, but you get my drift).

You come up with some funny comments at times MDC...

Dawes was average against the Bombers and now this? No way would Bartel be rated equal to Ablett in any circumstances. Although I do rate Bartel very highly as well. re this thread I love all three players...

 

[Dundalis]

Sidebottom has the most important 'unteachable tool' though and that's a quick footy mind with good decision making. He'll overcome any physical deficiency with that alone. It's the classic 'footballer' vs 'athlete' decision. Personally I very highly rate any player who shows the awareness Sidebottom has, far more higly than any player who shows a bit of athleticism but who mentally can't keep up with the pace of the game.

He'll continue to improve as well, as he grows more confident. I think thats Sideys biggest problem at the moment, doesn't seem willing to back himself in and make a big play, all too often he'll dish it off sideways when he could've kicked it forward himself. But he'll learn and eventually he'll be prepared to take the game on like that.

If you were able to judge a players talent with 100% accuracy at 19 then Wellingham would be delisted and the draft would be an exact science. I'm really shocked you can blow off a player with his TAC Cup performance, and being BOG in a final in his debut year. Everything points to him being an above average player at the very least, so to compare him to a plodder like O'Bree is almost insulting.

In terms of awareness, Wellingham creates time for himself IMO better than either Beams or Sidebottom. Second only to Pendles in the team, rarely if ever does he get caught in possession. And while both Beams and Sidebottom are clean, Wellingham is even more impressive. These unteachable tools Wellingham already possesses and in abundance. Desicion making is not an unteachable tool, Wellingham has improved consistently in that the last few years. Sidebottom is certainly a superior decision maker, but so far he basically always tends to take the easy option (i.e sideways short kick, looping handball to space). Wellingham usually has it bursting through the centre of the park at pace and sometimes will just bomb away without looking. Even given that Wellingham IMO is far more dangerous because of where he gets his touches and the fact he is usually running at pace, which puts the opposition on the backfoot. Maybe Sidebottom will become more confident and try different things, maybe not.

IMO Wellingham no longer fades out of games, as he did in previous seasons. If you are saying he doesn't put 4 quarters together every week, who does? Certainly not Beams or Sidebottom. At this stage of their careers it's normal. I no longer have an issue with him keeping in the flow of the game either, not only is he getting stuck into the thick of the action both inside and outside receiving, but he is making himself an option finding space around the ground as well, linking up. He's caught up to the level a 21 year old mid should be at this stage IMO. Still needing work, but no better or worse than others his age.

In terms of judging a player's talent, that is actually quite easy, given enough material to view. There are many skills and traits that are simply there or they aren't even at an early age. What you can't necessarily predict is how well it will translate, how they will develop physically, and most importantly how they will develop mentally, to make the most of the talent they have. The talent is generally how players get picked, the other things are what can make the draft a crapshoot.

If you were judging purely on talent, then at 19 Wellingham would have been promoted, not delisted. His talent was hardly the question, his attitude obviously was.

I never compared Sidebottom to O'Bree as a player. I simply said they shared ONE similar trait. You call O'Bree a plodder though, regardless of how well Sidebottom develops from here on in, he will always be a plodder also. I also expect Sidebottom to be an above average player, so it seems we agree there. Just not on how far above average he will reach. I think he will be a good to very good player, but at very very best, always in a class just below elite.

 

[Jonno_]

In terms of awareness, Wellingham creates time for himself IMO better than either Beams or Sidebottom. Second only to Pendles in the team, rarely if ever does he get caught in possession. And while both Beams and Sidebottom are clean, Wellingham is even more impressive. These unteachable tools Wellingham already possesses and in abundance. Desicion making is not an unteachable tool, Wellingham has improved consistently in that the last few years. Sidebottom is certainly a superior decision maker, but so far he basically always tends to take the easy option (i.e sideways short kick, looping handball to space). Wellingham usually has it bursting through the centre of the park at pace and sometimes will just bomb away without looking. Even given that Wellingham IMO is far more dangerous because of where he gets his touches and the fact he is usually running at pace, which puts the opposition on the backfoot. Maybe Sidebottom will become more confident and try different things, maybe not.

IMO Wellingham no longer fades out of games, as he did in previous seasons. If you are saying he doesn't put 4 quarters together every week, who does? Certainly not Beams or Sidebottom. At this stage of their careers it's normal. I no longer have an issue with him keeping in the flow of the game either, not only is he getting stuck into the thick of the action both inside and outside receiving, but he is making himself an option finding space around the ground as well, linking up. He's caught up to the level a 21 year old mid should be at this stage IMO. Still needing work, but no better or worse than others his age.

In terms of judging a player's talent, that is actually quite easy, given enough material to view. There are many skills and traits that are simply there or they aren't even at an early age. What you can't necessarily predict is how well it will translate, how they will develop physically, and most importantly how they will develop mentally, to make the most of the talent they have. The talent is generally how players get picked, the other things are what can make the draft a crapshoot.

If you were judging purely on talent, then at 19 Wellingham would have been promoted, not delisted. His talent was hardly the question, his attitude obviously was.

I never compared Sidebottom to O'Bree as a player. I simply said they shared ONE similar trait. You call O'Bree a plodder though, regardless of how well Sidebottom develops from here on in, he will always be a plodder also. I also expect Sidebottom to be an above average player, so it seems we agree there. Just not on how far above average he will reach. I think he will be a good to very good player, but at very very best, always in a class just below elite.

1) You're right, decision making is not unteachable. However, it is very difficult to teach people to make the correct decision under intense pressure, and when people are forced to play by instinct. In this regard, I think Sidebottom would be better than Wellingham as he thinks a step ahead of most players. You can see this in the way he directs play, or his quickness of hands and reading the ball off packs etc.

2) Sidebottom finishes games - his gut running saved us the game against Melbourne. Easily the best tank out of the three. Not that it is an issue as they will all improve and eventually level out.

3) It is extremely difficult to judge a young players talent. I think you are being naive if you think you can. Because
a) players develop in strength and it enables them to do other things (i.e. Wellingham becoming an inside player)
b) players grow into certain roles and transform as a player (arguably Maxwell and captaincy; or Gary Ablett and becoming a midfielder)
c) players don't deal well with a tag (arguably Selwood copping some tags this year, or playing on opponents usually reserved for Ablett and Bartel)

It is remarkable the amount of players who were particularly unimpressive as youngsters and have turned out to be superstars of the competition, and many times none of these traits were present at the beginning.

4) Being slow does not necessarily mean you are a plodder. You can be slow of by foot, but quick by mind and 'play fast' without running through backs or taking four bounces down the wing. Jobe Watson is a plodder, Robert Harvey was not. They were both slow players.

 

[Brent24]

6 goals between them today. All were very good.

 

[Dundalis]

1) You're right, decision making is not unteachable. However, it is very difficult to teach people to make the correct decision under intense pressure, and when people are forced to play by instinct. In this regard, I think Sidebottom would be better than Wellingham as he thinks a step ahead of most players. You can see this in the way he directs play, or his quickness of hands and reading the ball off packs etc.

2) Sidebottom finishes games - his gut running saved us the game against Melbourne. Easily the best tank out of the three. Not that it is an issue as they will all improve and eventually level out.

3) It is extremely difficult to judge a young players talent. I think you are being naive if you think you can. Because
a) players develop in strength and it enables them to do other things (i.e. Wellingham becoming an inside player)
b) players grow into certain roles and transform as a player (arguably Maxwell and captaincy; or Gary Ablett and becoming a midfielder)
c) players don't deal well with a tag (arguably Selwood copping some tags this year, or playing on opponents usually reserved for Ablett and Bartel)

It is remarkable the amount of players who were particularly unimpressive as youngsters and have turned out to be superstars of the competition, and many times none of these traits were present at the beginning.

4) Being slow does not necessarily mean you are a plodder. You can be slow of by foot, but quick by mind and 'play fast' without running through backs or taking four bounces down the wing. Jobe Watson is a plodder, Robert Harvey was not. They were both slow players.

You are correct on that last point. Watching Sidebottom today, he's not a plodder. Doesn't have pace obviously, but he showed he can move more than your average plodder.

It is very easy to tell when a player has talent IMO. Your example of Wellingham simply becoming an inside player recently is incorrect. Added strength and experience allowed him to show that ability consistently at AFL level, but he has always shown the ability to play inside. I called him a Daniel Kerr clone in his first season at the club because he showed the ability to play inside and out. At that time obviously he had attitude and some mental issues in terms of concentration, which meant he didn't consistently show that quality. But it was always there. AFAIC any other player you can mention, if they have become great inside players, they have always had the ability but only likely shown it in flashes for whatever reason. This applies to many other unteachable or innate skills. No one simply develops it from having shown no inkling of having the ability, with perhaps the exception of a player who'd previously played a position where they were never in a situation to show that certain quality.

Gary Ablett was always going to transition to midfield. He always showed fantastic skills. You don't know that he will develop and advance to become a superstar midfielder, but the TALENT was always there to allow him to do that. Maxwell has become a pretty good player, after looking average to start with. I never thought he was a particularly talented player, and he still isn't. He does however show great leadership skills, which again he has always had, but just managed to take to another level with the captaincy. So basically talent doesn't just appear, it's always been there and always pretty easy to see from a young age. The player making 100% of the talent that is already there is the variable, which I already explained in my post.

I thought today Wellingham's execution under pressure was superior to Sidebottom's. And while I certainly still think Sidebottom is better than Wellingham in that respect, as it is just one game, it's not as massive a difference as some think.

All the unteachables are generally already there from a young age, as well as many teachables. They might not be there consistently, but there are always signs, flashes of the ability if you watch the player closely.

 

[Kipz]

Killed it again today

 

[Bay Pie]

Wellers killed it again today, playing on Judd for quite a bit too.

Wellers would be in the top 3 for the Copeland so far.

Thought Beams & Sidey were both very good also.

 

[Zahki]

I reckon Sidebottom had a very good game. Again, seemed very reluctant to take responsiblity and move the ball forward himself, but was a key player in a few scoring chains.

 

[Spoony]

I loved Sidebottoms 2nd and 3rd efforts as I always do, I think he really goes that extra pace and just keeps on trying. The whole team generally does this but I think Sidey does it that little bit more and that little bit harder than most of the players

 

[Frankie23]

All 3 were again great. Wellingham was awsome with his ability to find space in heavy traffic.

Sidebottom worked his way into the game really well and seemed to be involved in many chains

Beams was interesting, he was quiet early and had Joseph on him for a while, yet he worked his way into the game and kicked a few goals. His attack on the ball was second to none.

 

[Camo1902]

All 3 were excellent again.

Wellingham's workrate has been fantastic in all 6 games this year. His development has really impressed me.

I was saying to my sister at the game today how it really doesn't feel like Sidebottom & Beams are 2nd year players. They both have such great composure for blokes who have played less than 30 games of AFL footy.

 

[dswan]

Wellingham most improved in afl!

 

[bigburger]

Wellingham most improved in afl!

I agree with this. Hes been fantastic for you guys this year.