Besides the aqueducts what has Pagan done for us!

[95&eyenoit]

I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Ive seen enough already, he is unwilling to create a team plan around the players he has, instead he forces the players to conform to a static (and proven failure) formula.

I could not believe that for the first half of the Freo game Fev was hanging around the 50m line. WHAT THE!!!!

The reason this game plan worked for Nth Melb is simply they had Carey and the game plan suited him, as it would in current times with the likes of Goodes, Burton, Rocca....but there is not many of them! Fev has all the skills but not the agility to play Pagans paddock, nor has Lance or anyone else in the blues for that matter. Not that this makes them unsuccessful, quite the opposite, they are great players that need to play in a manner that makes them great, not some tribal rigidity that is praised when your side gets flogged by 40+ points (consistently).

We needed youth in our players which we couldnt afford (relatively to the rest of the comp) and now we need it in the coaching box. We need something that builds confidence in the players to back themselves, take risks, perform to their natural ability... after all, these players have made the elite level by playing a game that comes naturally to them....WHY CHANGE IT!


If by round 12 Pagan hasnt changed his myopic and close-minded game plan Im out of here....are you coming or what!


OK, besides the aqueducts AND MAKING IT SAFE TO GO OUT ON THE STREETS AT NIGHT, what has Pagan ever done for us!

 

[LordLucifer]

Pretty obvious that you have little or no idea about football in general.

I'd suggest that other posters should not even dignify the original post with any sort of reply.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

The problem with opinions are that you dont need to know anything to have one!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Let's look at it shall we?

Last season we had non-performing dissenters and never will be's in the side. What game plan should we have had them playing?

Now we have half a new side with players from Hawthorn, Geelong, North, Essendon, Port and Collingwood joining the mix. Did they all play exactly the same style of footy at those clubs? I doubt it. We have to have a basic game plan and the players all have to gel around that plan. Fev is a quick full forward more than capable of doubling back towards goal, Kenna is the ultimate crumbing machine and if the forward line is open Morrell is capable of bagging them from outside 50.

With a few of our stars missing yesterday and a trip to Subi that is a graveyard for visiting teams, now is not the time to see if our recruiting has worked or if the game plan will never work. One thing that does help us with the game plan is that we push up ground to make space inside the forward 50 and in doing so provide more support for the midfield and especially the defence without getting back to the ugly flooding strategy.

I saw a few good signs yesterday as well as a lot of signs we need more work. I saw no 'scrap the lot and start again' signs.

 

[95&eyenoit]

Originally posted by TheSheik
Pretty obvious that you have little or no idea about football in general.

I'd suggest that other posters should not even dignify the original post with any sort of reply.

Maybe I dont know enough as you Sheiky baby, and maybe my opinion differs from some (or most) but at least I am prepared to state my thoughts without the fear of BEING PART OF A PACK mentality.

Im open to being wrong, in fact I hope I am. But from being (very) close to the club and observing past and current trends (round 1 I know, but go have a look/listen at training) Im only stating what others will be screaming later in the year/s....AND I HOPE IM WRONG. I love the blue baggers as much as all supporters.

Seeing guys trying their guts out for an individuals vision is both comendable and foolish if the results do not justify it.

Sheik, when our team successfully implements the PADDOCK game and wins consecutive games I will grovel at your robe and headdress.

 

[LordLucifer]

Originally posted by 95&eyenoit
I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Okay then, I'll play your silly game !!


Who then 'oh wise one' shall replace Denis Pagan as the coach of the Carlton Football Club ??

 

[95&eyenoit]

Originally posted by TheSheik
I'd suggest that other posters should not even dignify the original post with any sort of reply.

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Look, lets get serious (and I thought my Monty Python quotes were enough to suggest a tongue in cheek assessment).

Its round one, 21 weeks short of sacking anyone. In my crystal ball I see a lot more dissention and discontentment BUT MY CRYSTAL BALL HAS BEEN KNOWN TO HAVE THROWN A FEW WOBBLIES OVER THE YEARS.

I dont know who should replace him and if he can get the side up to 8 - 10 wins...NO ONE SHOULD.

My point is simply this, make a game plan that suits the players ability and talent. This has its problems agreed, having a inexperienced back line etc.

However I believe, and it is only my opinion, that consistently losing destroys all fibre within any structure e.g. passion, determination, HOPE and excitement. Imagine running out onto the field in round 22 last year with a blue guernsey on. Getting flogged by 120 points was hardly a surprise.

By allowing players to perform to their strengths at least supports their own ability, ensures a trust and rewards individuals who give it their best.

Again, its round one, and as Churchill said as Germany invaded Poland, "Whats for lunch?" (Well its a bit of a guess but Im sure he would have been curious at some stage as to what he would be eating).

Sheiky baby, I’ll be washing my jumper for next week, taking my sons and supporting the boys with as much excitement as always, save your anger for those who truly hate our club. Although feel free to continue your ire against me if need be, I sort of like it.

 

[Jimmae]

95&eyenoit: Geez, I didn't expect some kind of Spanish inquisition!

*Dramatic music*

*Mike Sheehan and several other Hun reporters charge in dress in Spanish priest robes circa 1700s*

Mike: NO ONE EXPECTS THE HERALD SUN! OUR CHIEF WEAPON.. IS SURPRISE! SURPRISE AND FEAR... ah our two weapons are fear and suprise and ruthless efficiency... ahh three weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency and an almost complete loss of proper journalistic principles... ahhh... amongst our weapons. Amongst our weapons are, such elements as - look I'll come again.

I do share your point and I've said it before: Pagan needs to bend his gameplan a little bit. Nothing drastic, but he just can't go around reforming his surroundings to suit him, at least not entirely.

 

[Jimmae]

On the other hand I have some good news:

Mike Sheehan is writing a selection of short stories with the common theme of pain and destruction of anything he doesn't like. The name of his composition is set to be: "Mike Sheehan Herald Sun sport column 29/3/04"

 

[95&eyenoit]

Originally posted by Jimmae
On the other hand I have some good news:

Mike Sheehan is writing a selection of short stories with the common theme of pain and destruction of anything he doesn't like. The name of his composition is set to be: "Mike Sheehan Herald Sun sport column 29/3/04"

Can I get an option on that? Although casting could prove difficult, hmm.... Hugh Jackson maybe....no of course, Mel Gibson as Mike Sheehan and we will call it "MAD MIKE".

 

[Chemical]

im not a fan of pagans formula but im trusting he will do well

 

[Effes]

We do have a gun CHF...........he'll be returning in round 5

He is very much suited to the pagan game plan

lance is too slow under pagans game plan.................the ball comes in quickly and lance is too slow to get to the contest


the one coming back in round 5 will do very well indeed

 

[godsmack]

I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Have to say I agree with what you are saying. The only reason pagan is at the blues is because Elliott wanted to keep his job, and had to be seen like he was doing something to improve Carlton’s situation. My personal opinion is that had pagan not had the likes of Carey, grant and Harvey he would not have been lauded with so much praise as a coach. A coach should be able to use the talent at his disposal and not have to change a player’s style to suit the coaches’ one-dimensional simple game plan. Bring back brittain. I think this guy had talent as a coach. O.K we got the spoon under him, but if you look at the amount of injuries we suffered that year ( 40 game out of your top 10 players) I think we at least played with a lot more competitive spirit then we have ever played under pagan. How many times did our mid fielders or chf kick the ball long into our forward 50, only for the ball to go sailing over our forwards head, land in the hands on the opposition, who inturn chip the ball to loose player on the wing, running the ball into their forward resulting in a goal.

BRING BACK BRITTIAN..........................................

 

[Thrawn]

 

[Chemical]

Re: I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Originally posted by godsmack
Have to say I agree with what you are saying. The only reason pagan is at the blues is because Elliott wanted to keep his job, and had to be seen like he was doing something to improve Carlton’s situation. My personal opinion is that had pagan not had the likes of Carey, grant and Harvey he would not have been lauded with so much praise as a coach. A coach should be able to use the talent at his disposal and not have to change a player’s style to suit the coaches’ one-dimensional simple game plan. Bring back brittain. I think this guy had talent as a coach. O.K we got the spoon under him, but if you look at the amount of injuries we suffered that year ( 40 game out of your top 10 players) I think we at least played with a lot more competitive spirit then we have ever played under pagan. How many times did our mid fielders or chf kick the ball long into our forward 50, only for the ball to go sailing over our forwards head, land in the hands on the opposition, who inturn chip the ball to loose player on the wing, running the ball into their forward resulting in a goal.

BRING BACK BRITTIAN..........................................

oh sweet jesus....

 

[95&eyenoit]

Re: I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Originally posted by godsmack
BRING BACK BRITTIAN..........................................

Now, now, settle down... and if any one shouldnt be taking smack its god! For heavens sake!!

Look, Wayne is a really good bloke and has huge footy smarts but ....nah, naaahhhhhhhhhh, naaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh.

I think I would rather be screaming,
"Kick it 70 metres to the 1 on 4 contest, and quickly before the other Carlton forwards get there and spoil the FUN!!!!!"

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Re: I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Originally posted by godsmack
Have to say I agree with what you are saying. The only reason pagan is at the blues is because Elliott wanted to keep his job, and had to be seen like he was doing something to improve Carlton’s situation. My personal opinion is that had pagan not had the likes of Carey, grant and Harvey he would not have been lauded with so much praise as a coach. A coach should be able to use the talent at his disposal and not have to change a player’s style to suit the coaches’ one-dimensional simple game plan. Bring back brittain. I think this guy had talent as a coach. O.K we got the spoon under him, but if you look at the amount of injuries we suffered that year ( 40 game out of your top 10 players) I think we at least played with a lot more competitive spirit then we have ever played under pagan. How many times did our mid fielders or chf kick the ball long into our forward 50, only for the ball to go sailing over our forwards head, land in the hands on the opposition, who inturn chip the ball to loose player on the wing, running the ball into their forward resulting in a goal.


BRING BACK BRITTIAN..........................................

Expert opinion. Youre an astute judge of coaches. Of course you know every club has had its superstars. StKilda never won anything with Plugger either did Sydney. Geelong won F/A with Ablett.
Actually StKilda won nothing with Plugger, winmar, Loewe, Harvey and Burke.

Pagan won games because of Carey....well how come he went through a season without Carey and still made the 8?North had a very good win / loss ratio without Carey.
Britain as our coach? Nice one. Are you related to Britts?

 

[Chemical]

Re: Re: I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Originally posted by TheHeatleyStand
Are you related to Britts?

could be Britts self promoting

 

[godsmack]

this is for "theheatleystand" and "chemical"............. never said i was an expert on coaches.............. what i did say was that a coach should use the talents at his disposal and design a game plan around his assets...................... not have a simple game plan................. which pagans’ is, and then expect players, to change their style of play and hinder their natural ability. Pagan had the right people at north.................... he doesn't at carlton!! it's as simple as that.

Take a look at bitts’ record, and tell me that he was not the right man for the job. When he took control of the team........ even though parks was still there we got into a grand final, then in 2000-2002 we were the second best if not best team in the league at the time., had injuries not destroyed our chances at redeeming the 1999 grand final loss.

So i'll say it again............................ BRING BACK BRITTS, AND SACK THAT HAS BEEN................. PAGAN

Of cause this is only my opinion, but i do think that this type of thinking will begin to grow in the blue army................. well I hope it will.

 

[Chemical]

Originally posted by godsmack
2000-2002 we were the second best if not best team

we were the second best team in 2002 and got the spoon?

 

[GrahamH]

I would be more worried about what Collins has done for Carlton rather than Pagan. The continued failure to land a major sponsor is embarrassing and has me worried, christ even the Doggies could land a couple of sponsors

 

[95&eyenoit]

Originally posted by GrahamH
... even the Doggies could land a couple of sponsors

Yeah, its a bit of a worry. The deal with Toshiba (or what ever the parent company is) was a little silly, an away game sponsorship with a few exceptions for home games (and Im guessing thoses games are the bigger ones i.e. Collingwood etc.)

If I was a sponsor I wouldnt be able to see much value in supporting the Blues in the home games that exclude those that attract the most attention!!!

Its no wonder the doggies have sponsors, their team (finally) attracts interest.....so what does that say about the mighty Blues...SHUT-UP, dont even think it.

Change of Topic
Norman fantastic on Saturday against Freo. I thought he really gave it his all. Made a few blunders but it really looks as though he is going to take a step up this year.

 

[Jimmae]

Originally posted by 95&eyenoit
Yeah, its a bit of a worry. The deal with Toshiba (or what ever the parent company is) was a little silly, an away game sponsorship with a few exceptions for home games (and Im guessing thoses games are the bigger ones i.e. Collingwood etc.)

If I was a sponsor I wouldnt be able to see much value in supporting the Blues in the home games that exclude those that attract the most attention!!!

Its no wonder the doggies have sponsors, their team (finally) attracts interest.....so what does that say about the mighty Blues...SHUT-UP, dont even think it.

Change of Topic
Norman fantastic on Saturday against Freo. I thought he really gave it his all. Made a few blunders but it really looks as though he is going to take a step up this year.

Agreed on Norman.

However, the reason why we probably did that is because we're talking about an arm of a huge Japanese corporation, meaning big dollars involved. Clearly they weren't interested in sponsoring all games so Collins went with the smart play: "How about some national exposure?"

Naturally, the Toshiba people's eyes lit up and in turn so did Collins' with dollar signs.

It doesn't matter until next week anyway, we're covered for the game against Geelong, and apparently we're in talks with two companies.

 

[luthor]

Re: I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Originally posted by godsmack
\

BRING BACK BRITTIAN..........................................

Why not bring back Parkin, or Walls or Jeusalenko.....or....????

Hey, I'm an outsider looking in here....but for God's sake....hasn't your club been through enough turmoil and strife to last you 3 lifetimes.

So now you cop a belting in Round 1 and your only solution is the old "let's sack the coach 'cause it's all his fault" routine.

Stick fast man.....Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Re: Re: I know its a big call round one but.....SACK PAGAN!

Originally posted by luthor
Why not bring back Parkin, or Walls or Jeusalenko.....or....????

Hey, I'm an outsider looking in here....but for God's sake....hasn't your club been through enough turmoil and strife to last you 3 lifetimes.

So now you cop a belting in Round 1 and your only solution is the old "let's sack the coach 'cause it's all his fault" routine.

Stick fast man.....Rome wasn't built in a day.

Too true. It's a long way back from the woeful list that we brought ourselves. Takes a long while for the rubbish to work its way out of the system and find adequate replacements via the draft, then you have to have succession planning for the imminent retirement of key players. SOS was only covered by a wishful thinking stance on Livingston, Davies at pick 39 was supposed to cover Ratten and god knows who was supposed to cover for Bradley. To make it worse, the attitude of a few remaining ... Allan, Murphy, Manton and Beaumont and the refusal of McKernan to play under Pagan has set us back further. Make no mistake of the value of those individuals at their best but their best was never again going to be for us.

We have a whole playing infrastructure to rebuild and Pagan has been there for a year, and a year that he hadn't had as much input into when overturning the list after 2002.