"Best midfield in the competition"

[tunksy]

Really love the way Conca has started the year off & I can really see him becoming an extremely good inside midfielder in 2 years time and im talking Marc Murphy Good

id love that to happen, then we would have the best midfield surely
would love if he accumulated like murphy does too

 

[Rayzorwire]

On paper, even without Foley, we do have the best midfield in the comp. Does anyone seriously want to swap midfield's with ANY other side? I don't.

As we've repeatedly seen, it helps little having the talent and right balance of types if you've got a moron in the box.

You'd think after four years we'd be capable of setting up defensively and holding our own on days when Maric is not giving us first use.

You'd think after four years of watching our younger 'star mids' fade out of games at crucial times and fail to lay hands on the ball or their opponent, that the last kind of player we'd be subbing out would be a ball winning, fierce tackling inside mid. And that we wouldn't be leaving a gun kid who DOES lay his hands on the ball and DOES lay tackles in the VFL, in preference for yet another of Hardwick's 12 possession a game flankers ('led' by the terminally pathetic Newman).

It's like Hardwick is on a mission to never, ever play our strongest ball winning and tackling midfield in any form which gives us the significant tactical advantage it should.

The half-witted half-back flanker just never gets it - and at this late stage, given his enormous unjustified faith in his own judgement, it's difficult to see him ever getting it. It takes a special kind of idiot to repeatedly fall victim to the kind of mistakes he makes and never learn from them. Personally, I have no faith in his capacity to ever stop being that idiot.

 

[TigerTime88]

Newman is definitely not a midfielder and tbh I think he is falling out of our best 22. He looks slow, has a poor tank and just doesn't find the footy enough.

Next we have Daniel Jackson who showed on the weekend he is not up to it. At one point we had someone in miles of space at half forward and all he had to do was put it on his left boot somewhere in the area....OUT ON THE FULL WAS THE RESULT. We all know Jacko is a battler and I wonder how long we can carry him for.

Then you also have Shaun Grigg....has to replace Jackson as tagger or else I don't see him in the best 22 for long. I don't mind his tagging he generally does well which is strange because he doesn't ever lay a tackle.

Tucky seems down this year but I wold persist until Helbig is ready.

If we can replace Newman, Jackson, Tuck and Grigg over the next two years with Vlaustin, Foley, Helbig, Ellis then it will start to look better but I wouldn't mind throwing some cash at a decent free agent mid either.

Cotchin, Deledio, Martin, Foley, Conca, Ellis, Vlaustin, Helbig, Knights (i rate him) should be a very good midfield but it does still need time unfortunately against the good sides. These guys will smash some mid tier and mediocre mids but units like the pies will show us up. Finals experience and more big 4 pressure cooker games will help.

The foundation is there but it is still 2 years from completion and if we could get a FA in the mold of a Daisy Thomas then I think it would elevate us immediately and in the long term.

COTCHIN, DELEDIO, THOMAS, MARTIN, FOLEY, CONCA, ELLIS, VLAUSTIN, HELBIG, KNIGHTS

 

[getthefooty]

On paper, even without Foley, we do have the best midfield in the comp. Does anyone seriously want to swap midfield's with ANY other side? I don't.

As we've repeatedly seen, it helps little having the talent and right balance of types if you've got a moron in the box.

You'd think after four years we'd be capable of setting up defensively and holding our own on days when Maric is not giving us first use.

You'd think after four years of watching our younger 'star mids' fade out of games at crucial times and fail to lay hands on the ball or their opponent, that the last kind of player we'd be subbing out would be a ball winning, fierce tackling inside mid. And that we wouldn't be leaving a gun kid who DOES lay his hands on the ball and DOES lay tackles in the VFL, in preference for yet another of Hardwick's 12 possession a game flankers ('led' by the terminally pathetic Newman).

It's like Hardwick is on a mission to never, ever play our strongest ball winning and tackling midfield in any form which gives us the significant tactical advantage it should.

The half-witted half-back flanker just never gets it - and at this late stage, given his enormous unjustified faith in his own judgement, it's difficult to see him ever getting it. It takes a special kind of idiot to repeatedly fall victim to the kind of mistakes he makes and never learn from them. Personally, I have no faith in his capacity to ever stop being that idiot.

This is just a bad, bad post. We clearly don't have the best midfield in the comp yet - and the side we played on Saturday is one of the teams that has a superior midfield. Sometimes I think some supporters aren't going to be happy unless we go 22-0 then win all our finals. We lost. We got smashed in the third term in the middle of the ground - it happens. Sometimes there's absolutely nothing the coach can do during the game, and as others have been saying, it's how we respond next week that gives a truer measure of where we are at.

Why would Vlastuin come in yet? Very short sighted of you to think that a first year player can come in and be our silver bullet. He hasn't been setting the VFL on fire by any stretch (in fact reports are yesterday that he had a shocker - why on earth would he come in next week??) and I'm more than happy for him to earn his place by playing consistent footy for weeks in the 2's. The time is over where we gift games to first year players.

Tuck was having a shocker - all and sundry could see that. You really think he would've made any difference to the progression of that third term? Ellis had shown vs the Saints that he could come on and have an immediate positive impact as the sub. You can use hindsight to support your point but in reality there was nothing wrong with the change Hardwick made.

We are 3-1 and effectively played one shocking quarter for our loss. Let's wait until we're in a slightly worse position to launch your tirades, eh?

 

[tunksy]

On paper, even without Foley, we do have the best midfield in the comp. Does anyone seriously want to swap midfield's with ANY other side? I don't.

As we've repeatedly seen, it helps little having the talent and right balance of types if you've got a moron in the box.

You'd think after four years we'd be capable of setting up defensively and holding our own on days when Maric is not giving us first use.

You'd think after four years of watching our younger 'star mids' fade out of games at crucial times and fail to lay hands on the ball or their opponent, that the last kind of player we'd be subbing out would be a ball winning, fierce tackling inside mid. And that we wouldn't be leaving a gun kid who DOES lay his hands on the ball and DOES lay tackles in the VFL, in preference for yet another of Hardwick's 12 possession a game flankers ('led' by the terminally pathetic Newman).

It's like Hardwick is on a mission to never, ever play our strongest ball winning and tackling midfield in any form which gives us the significant tactical advantage it should.

The half-witted half-back flanker just never gets it - and at this late stage, given his enormous unjustified faith in his own judgement, it's difficult to see him ever getting it. It takes a special kind of idiot to repeatedly fall victim to the kind of mistakes he makes and never learn from them. Personally, I have no faith in his capacity to ever stop being that idiot.

unfortunately tuck has started the season a little slowly.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

On paper, even without Foley, we do have the best midfield in the comp. Does anyone seriously want to swap midfield's with ANY other side? I don't.

As we've repeatedly seen, it helps little having the talent and right balance of types if you've got a moron in the box.

You'd think after four years we'd be capable of setting up defensively and holding our own on days when Maric is not giving us first use.

You'd think after four years of watching our younger 'star mids' fade out of games at crucial times and fail to lay hands on the ball or their opponent, that the last kind of player we'd be subbing out would be a ball winning, fierce tackling inside mid. And that we wouldn't be leaving a gun kid who DOES lay his hands on the ball and DOES lay tackles in the VFL, in preference for yet another of Hardwick's 12 possession a game flankers ('led' by the terminally pathetic Newman).

It's like Hardwick is on a mission to never, ever play our strongest ball winning and tackling midfield in any form which gives us the significant tactical advantage it should.

The half-witted half-back flanker just never gets it - and at this late stage, given his enormous unjustified faith in his own judgement, it's difficult to see him ever getting it. It takes a special kind of idiot to repeatedly fall victim to the kind of mistakes he makes and never learn from them. Personally, I have no faith in his capacity to ever stop being that idiot.

You do realize that when Tuck got subbed out , the rot seemingly haulted ? I also suspect you are aware of Tuck's lack of tackles and the effectiveness the opposition has had in exposing Tuck's lack of pace ?
And you call Hardwick a moron ?

 

[Rayzorwire]

This is just a bad, bad post. We clearly don't have the best midfield in the comp yet - and the side we played on Saturday is one of the teams that has a superior midfield.

Rubbish, they were missing Beams, Ball and playing a second-string, dinosaur ruckman. Pendlebury is clearly carrying an injury and Swan was hardly in career best form. They were depleted and vulnerable, but Hardwick wasn't up to the job of exploiting it.

Why would Vlastuin come in yet?

Wins ball, sticks tackles.

The time is over where we gift games to first year players.

No mate, it's high past time we stopped gifting games to too many outside players of any age who can't win their own ball when the heat is on. Vlastuin should have been sub from week one and his ball winning and tackling should be used for as much of the game as he can currently manage.

Season after season, week after week, Hardwick gets his pants pulled down throwing Martin in the middle for large parts of games, watching the rest of the midfield have to carry him for the 2nd half and pretend that one of these days it will all work out. We're still pretending that Newman isn't a half game player who doesn't go AWOL every big game of his career and every other time he's not getting the ball served to him on a platter by teammates or turnovers.

Tuck was having a shocker - all and sundry could see that. You really think he would've made any difference to the progression of that third term?

His disposal has been below his best and he may well be playing sick or injured, but if you think the fact he's barely laid a tackle in four games is due to him suddenly forgetting how or being incapable of doing so, and not due to yet another role-change which elevates other mids to the role he does better than any of them, then you haven't been watching closely enough.

Hardwick wants him to become a Grigg type and abuse his endurance while neglecting all his better qualities. The man has a poor football brain. Unless the ball is the focus, you've got no hope whatsoever of getting Tucky or any player like him to cover the distances that he's being asked to.

Now some may say, fair enough, Tuck is not the future and if he can't fit with the development of other players as mids, then so be it, let him go back to Coburg again and finish his career there.

I say that I thought we were finally going to play our best side.

Hardwick apparently still doesn't know what our best side is and how to use our players for best effect. There can be no worse indictment on a coach, IMO.

 

[_RT_]

On paper, even without Foley, we do have the best midfield in the comp. Does anyone seriously want to swap midfield's with ANY other side? I don't.

There are a couple of problems with this, firstly the game isn't played on paper and secondly it's plain incorrect. If we did have the best midfield in the comp we would have beaten the Pies regardless of who was in the box, be it Hardwick or the genius that is TW. As for swapping for another midfield I'd happily take the Swans Pies or Geelong midfields for this year as they have shown/proven that they can compete harder and go for longer than our group can. That's not to say our midfield doesn't have potential to be very good but right now they are middle of the pack.

As we've repeatedly seen, it helps little having the talent and right balance of types if you've got a moron in the box.

What doesn't help is having a midfield group that doesn't work as hard defensively as it does offensively. We were exposed on the weekend by a Pies midfield that worked hard both ways. They got back in numbers and supported their backs and then when they had the ball ran us off our legs to get into dangerous positions.

You'd think after four years we'd be capable of setting up defensively and holding our own on days when Maric is not giving us first use.

You can't be talking about Saturday because Maric won the hitouts 25-20 over Hudson and we also won the centre clearances 15-12, overall we lost the clearances by 3, 34-31. So we were getting plenty of first use of the ball the problem was that when we did get hands on it we weren't being given the time and space we were the week before against the Dogs, which has a lot to do with the Pies midfielders being much better than the Dogs pups.

You'd think after four years of watching our younger 'star mids' fade out of games at crucial times and fail to lay hands on the ball or their opponent, that the last kind of player we'd be subbing out would be a ball winning, fierce tackling inside mid. And that we wouldn't be leaving a gun kid who DOES lay his hands on the ball and DOES lay tackles in the VFL, in preference for yet another of Hardwick's 12 possession a game flankers ('led' by the terminally pathetic Newman).

So your suggestion to boost our midfield, which you say fades out of games, is to bring in a kid whose biggest negative pre draft was not having a tank to allow him to play in the midfield last year. Sounds like a plan

It's like Hardwick is on a mission to never, ever play our strongest ball winning and tackling midfield in any form which gives us the significant tactical advantage it should.

The only player missing from our 'superstar' midfield group at present is Foley. Everyone else has been there, I'm not counting Vlastuin as he is yet to debut, and yet we have been exposed a number of times so far this year. In fact the only midfield we have comfortably beaten over 4 quarters has been the Dogs, who are about 2-3 years in development behind ours. Carltons midfield finished all over us, Saints stuck with us all the way and the Pies exposed us on the big stage.

The half-witted half-back flanker just never gets it - and at this late stage, given his enormous unjustified faith in his own judgement, it's difficult to see him ever getting it. It takes a special kind of idiot to repeatedly fall victim to the kind of mistakes he makes and never learn from them. Personally, I have no faith in his capacity to ever stop being that idiot.

I don't think it's Hardwick who doesn't get it. It's the supporters who think that because we have highly regarded names on paper that we should automatically have a gun midfield on the park that don't get it. As I mentioned in another thread last week Hardwick has had a plan since day one and has stuck fast to that plan despite the setbacks and has consistently had the side improve from year to year. If that is the reward for having a coach who makes 'repeated mistakes' then I'll take it, has to be better than having a coach who constantly made mistakes and that saw us constantly going from bottom to mid table and back to the bottom again.

 

[Rayzorwire]

There are a couple of problems with this, firstly the game isn't played on paper and secondly it's plain incorrect. If we did have the best midfield in the comp we would have beaten the Pies regardless of who was in the box, be it Hardwick or the genius that is TW.

Setup and the way players are used within the setup is crucial.

It's not magic, luck or sheer coincidence when a bloke like Hinkley walks into a former basket case club like Port and turns their midfield into a competitive beast despite having very average players, all in the space of one pre-season. It's good coaching. Happens all the time. Happened at our club occasionally too. Nobody spooned more love Wallace's way than you did, mate, and for some bizarre reason - which could easily be classified as 'disturbing' after four straight years of it - you still bring him up at every opportunity!

As for swapping for another midfield I'd happily take the Swans Pies or Geelong midfields for this year as they have shown/proven that they can compete harder and go for longer than our group can.

At full strength Collingwood is formidable, but they were well below that on Saturday. Geelong's midfield is very good, but not what it once was back in the day, they're riding Selwood pretty hard IMO. I think either of them can be picked apart by a good coach with the right players (which we do have). The Swans are the top of the lot, but even there, we've already shown we can match it with them. Fair enough they were missing some important players and that particular game we were able to put out what was IMO the strongest midfield we've fielded in decades, but why on earth should we think of ourselves as less capable than them?

It's almost like doing that has become force of habit with you, RT.

You can't be talking about Saturday...

I'm referring to having a plan for locking down the centre on any occasion.

So your suggestion to boost our midfield, which you say fades out of games, is to bring in a kid whose biggest negative pre draft was not having a tank...

Which part of Vlastuin playing as the sub are you struggling with?

Do we bring on a sub who can actually impact the heart of the game (for limited periods at this stage) or bring on another anonymous flanker who can do little to boost the key areas of the ground where matches are won and lost?

That's a bread and butter football question (or ANY sport involving subs for that matter), with only one really simple and straightforward answer.

I don't think it's Hardwick who doesn't get it. It's the supporters who think that because we have highly regarded names on paper that we should automatically have a gun midfield on the park that don't get it.

Cotchin, Deledio and Tuck were ranked by the best ratings people in football at Champion Data, as the collectively highest midfield unit last year as I recall, RT. Surely we'd hope for improvement from at least the younger two, plus a little more from an injury free Jackson (until last week at least), Martin, Conca, Edwards, Vlastuin etc., possibly even Grigg.

Plus don't forget you can be quoted from the pre-season as being confident about how much Knights was going to boost our midfield depth. I told you that you were dreaming. Were you, in hindsight, dreaming?

Point is though, there's an abundance of talent sitting there, waiting for the right football brain to properly harness it. Hardwick doesn't own a brain like that. A couple of match-up and strategical tweaks from the opposition coach and it's time again for the Essendon Accountant to talk up another competitive loss.

As I mentioned in another thread last week Hardwick has had a plan since day one and has stuck fast to that plan...

Rubbish, RT. Absolute horse shit. He's deviated so many times from 'the plan' it'd take me three posts to list all the occurrences.

Day one of Hardwick's 'plan' was cull the Shane Tuck's and Jay Schulz's, get 50 games ASAP into a very large group of draftees, many of whom Blind Freddy could tell couldn't play and never would. We were supposed to cop watching that side get humiliated because we were repeatedly told these were the 'right' players to be 'taught the Hardwick way.' That 'plan' caused us to be called the worst side in living memory. Most of the juniors involved, the ones we sacrificed all respect to 'teach', apparently didn't learn enough to even stay on the list - Matty White's still getting a guernsey instead.

Bad teaching, bad judgement, or both? None of that was in 'the plan', not even in your wildest warpings of reality.

This solid gold Hardwick 'plan' for league domination and building his 'super side' (back then most here took him for an intellectual leviathan when it came to tactics and planning, I think far fewer would admit to thinking that now) was supposed to involve ONLY bringing in skilled ball users, especially in the midfield. On Saturday, we had Tucky (whose lack of skilled ball use Hardwick loathed for a long while) and Grigg (a mature recruit desperately needed because he could run and Hardwick's draftees couldn't [duh, they're KIDS!!!!], certainly not for his disposal skills) and we probably really could have used Lonergan (if we were that determined to leave Vlastuin out altogether), who makes quite a few 'worst kick going around' lists without trying.

We've had to bring in mature players who are not really what you'd dare call 'skilled ball users' all over the ground because clearly we feel we haven't progressed well enough with developing our own. Petterd seemed to be in a competition with Knights on the weekend to see who could butcher the ball more often.

Our 'skilled ball using' CHF is Luke McGuane.

By year four or so Hardwick expected to have a side with 12 if not 15 of his 'special Hardwick taught, killer ball using' draftees running around in it. We were 'drafting and teaching our own.' Another spectacularly failed Hardwick 'plan' which has had to be massively re-jigged to fit with reality.

From Saturday's side:

Wallace era drafted/developed: Deledio, Cotchin, Jackson, Tuck, Edwards, King, McGuane, Newman, Rance, Reiwoldt, Vickery. (plus Foley in best-22)

Mature players developed at other clubs: Chaplin, Knights, Grigg, Maric, Houli, Morris, Petterd.

Hardwick era drafted/developed: Conca, Ellis, Martin, Grimes.

Lucky he's got a few first rounders who he couldn't fail with, isn't it? You can argue and haggle over a couple of players and where they belong from the above, but it doesn't change what we're looking at.

Are we seeing a pattern yet? All Hardwick's early 'plans' hit a reality wall and they have caused way more harm and hindrance than good. Somewhere between his completely unrealistic expectations of how fast kids would develop into his 'super side', his poor judgement of players' abilities, or his poor teaching as a coach (we're talking about a man who spent the first two years prioritising teaching defence and then biggest priority for season three was to bring in an assistant coach to teach defence), ALL the 'plans' got either shredded into the unmentionable basket or filed under 'things to spin.'

So please, spare us the spin, RT.

 

[Livonski]

You're like the gopher on Caddyshack Rayzorwire . I know you're out there and I know you'll pop up at some point and I know what you're gonna say. The trick is I never know which hole it's gonna be. The Best midfield thread gets turned into your Hardwick attack? Still not sure how you did that.
Their midfield killed ours with run, poise, disposal efficiency and stamina. Ours were a little off the pace and were horribly exploited by their opponents. You blame the coach, I blame the players. They panicked on the big stage but they'll be better for the experience and will learn. Still a little way to go but on the right path.

 

[carn tigez]

You're like the gopher on Caddyshack Rayzorwire . I know you're out there and I know you'll pop up at some point and I know what you're gonna say. The trick is I never know which hole it's gonna be. The Best midfield thread gets turned into your Hardwick attack? Still not sure how you did that.

Hahahahahaha

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

You're like the gopher on Caddyshack Rayzorwire . I know you're out there and I know you'll pop up at some point and I know what you're gonna say. The trick is I never know which hole it's gonna be. The Best midfield thread gets turned into your Hardwick attack? Still not sure how you did that.
Their midfield killed ours with run, poise, disposal efficiency and stamina. Ours were a little off the pace and were horribly exploited by their opponents. You blame the coach, I blame the players. They panicked on the big stage but they'll be better for the experience and will learn. Still a little way to go but on the right path.

All the worlds flaws are Hardwick's fault .

 

[turtle27]

Another thread ruined by a Rayzor Hardwick rant. Pathetic.

 

[_RT_]

Setup and the way players are used within the setup is crucial.

It's not magic, luck or sheer coincidence when a bloke like Hinkley walks into a former basket case club like Port and turns their midfield into a competitive beast despite having very average players, all in the space of one pre-season. It's good coaching. Happens all the time. Happened at our club occasionally too. Nobody spooned more love Wallace's way than you did, mate, and for some bizarre reason - which could easily be classified as 'disturbing' after four straight years of it - you still bring him up at every opportunity!

Yep I supported TW early on when I thought he was taking us in the right direction, but once it became clear that he wasn't my opinion of him changed.

At full strength Collingwood is formidable, but they were well below that on Saturday. Geelong's midfield is very good, but not what it once was back in the day, they're riding Selwood pretty hard IMO. I think either of them can be picked apart by a good coach with the right players (which we do have). The Swans are the top of the lot, but even there, we've already shown we can match it with them. Fair enough they were missing some important players and that particular game we were able to put out what was IMO the strongest midfield we've fielded in decades, but why on earth should we think of ourselves as less capable than them?

It's almost like doing that has become force of habit with you, RT.

Thanks for backing up the point. Pies were well below full strength and still managed to expose us through better run and spread, ball use and defensive pressure. That's not the fault of Hardwick, it's the fault of the players. As for the Cats riding Selwood, it's no different to us riding Cotchin. The difference is that the Cats have those under Selwood performing at a level that allows them to cover for when Selwood is well held(see Carlton game).

Which part of Vlastuin playing as the sub are you struggling with?

Do we bring on a sub who can actually impact the heart of the game (for limited periods at this stage) or bring on another anonymous flanker who can do little to boost the key areas of the ground where matches are won and lost?


That's a bread and butter football question (or ANY sport involving subs for that matter), with only one really simple and straightforward answer.

Again it backs up my point, suggesting we bring in a kid who can only manage to go hard to 1/2-2/3 of a game before blowing up is no different to you bagging Hardwick for playing 12 possession game flankers. We're still going to be exposed due to not having the ability to run out games.

Cotchin, Deledio and Tuck were ranked by the best ratings people in football at Champion Data, as the collectively highest midfield unit last year as I recall, RT. Surely we'd hope for improvement from at least the younger two, plus a little more from an injury free Jackson (until last week at least), Martin, Conca, Edwards, Vlastuin etc., possibly even Grigg.

Plus don't forget you can be quoted from the pre-season as being confident about how much Knights was going to boost our midfield depth. I told you that you were dreaming. Were you, in hindsight, dreaming?

Point is though, there's an abundance of talent sitting there, waiting for the right football brain to properly harness it. Hardwick doesn't own a brain like that. A couple of match-up and strategical tweaks from the opposition coach and it's time again for the Essendon Accountant to talk up another competitive loss.

Once again Ray, games are not played on paper. So while we have a highly rated midfield on paper if they aren't going to do the hard work both offensively and defensively on the ground it means sweet FA. And yes I am confident in our midfield group, as I said they have the potential there to be very good but right now they aren't and it was exposed on Saturday against a midfield group that IS very good both on paper and on the ground.

As for Hardwick not having the brain to harness that midfield talent, well I'd suggest you're wrong. Under Hardwick our midfield destroyed both of last years Grand Final sides midfields when our players were prepared to do the hard work. As I said earlier when they aren't it doesn't matter who is in the box, all their plans will go out the window.

Rubbish, RT. Absolute horse shit. He's deviated so many times from 'the plan' it'd take me three posts to list all the occurrences.

Day one of Hardwick's 'plan' was cull the Shane Tuck's and Jay Schulz's, get 50 games ASAP into a very large group of draftees, many of whom Blind Freddy could tell couldn't play and never would. We were supposed to cop watching that side get humiliated because we were repeatedly told these were the 'right' players to be 'taught the Hardwick way.' That 'plan' caused us to be called the worst side in living memory. Most of the juniors involved, the ones we sacrificed all respect to 'teach', apparently didn't learn enough to even stay on the list - Matty White's still getting a guernsey instead.

Bad teaching, bad judgement, or both? None of that was in 'the plan', not even in your wildest warpings of reality.

It is quite funny watching you warp reality to accuse me of warping reality. The first stage of Hardwicks plan was to gut the list of those who plain weren't up to it and replace them with kids to find those that maybe up to it. That's what happens when the previous rebuild didn't achieve what it set out to achieve.

This solid gold Hardwick 'plan' for league domination and building his 'super side' (back then most here took him for an intellectual leviathan when it came to tactics and planning, I think far fewer would admit to thinking that now) was supposed to involve ONLY bringing in skilled ball users, especially in the midfield. On Saturday, we had Tucky (whose lack of skilled ball use Hardwick loathed for a long while) and Grigg (a mature recruit desperately needed because he could run and Hardwick's draftees couldn't [duh, they're KIDS!!!!], certainly not for his disposal skills) and we probably really could have used Lonergan (if we were that determined to leave Vlastuin out altogether), who makes quite a few 'worst kick going around' lists without trying.

We've had to bring in mature players who are not really what you'd dare call 'skilled ball users' all over the ground because clearly we feel we haven't progressed well enough with developing our own. Petterd seemed to be in a competition with Knights on the weekend to see who could butcher the ball more often.

More warping of reality on your behalf Ray. Grigg is averaging 23 disposals a game at 71.7% DE with only 8 clangers(3 of those being frees against). Meanwhile Petterd had 11 disposals on Saturday at 81.8% DE with 4 clangers(1 being a free against) and Knights had 20 disposals at 60%DE with 4 clangers(2 being frees against)

Our 'skilled ball using' CHF is Luke McGuane.

Our CHF is Vickery, McGuane is a roaming 3rd tall. But lets not let that get in the way now.

By year four or so Hardwick expected to have a side with 12 if not 15 of his 'special Hardwick taught, killer ball using' draftees running around in it. We were 'drafting and teaching our own.' Another spectacularly failed Hardwick 'plan' which has had to be massively re-jigged to fit with reality.

From Saturday's side:

Wallace era drafted/developed: Deledio, Cotchin, Jackson, Tuck, Edwards, King, McGuane, Newman, Rance, Reiwoldt, Vickery. (plus Foley in best-22)

Mature players developed at other clubs: Chaplin, Knights, Grigg, Maric, Houli, Morris, Petterd.

Hardwick era drafted/developed: Conca, Ellis, Martin, Grimes.

Lucky he's got a few first rounders who he couldn't fail with, isn't it? You can argue and haggle over a couple of players and where they belong from the above, but it doesn't change what we're looking at.

Are we seeing a pattern yet? All Hardwick's early 'plans' hit a reality wall and they have caused way more harm and hindrance than good. Somewhere between his completely unrealistic expectations of how fast kids would develop into his 'super side', his poor judgement of players' abilities, or his poor teaching as a coach (we're talking about a man who spent the first two years prioritising teaching defence and then biggest priority for season three was to bring in an assistant coach to teach defence), ALL the 'plans' got either shredded into the unmentionable basket or filed under 'things to spin.'

So please, spare us the spin, RT.

From the list that Hardwick inherited at the end of 09 there are 14 players left, the rest of the current list are all Hardwick recruited players which ties in with the plan to rebuild this list from the ground up. As I mentioned above that is why Hardwick hasn't deviated from the plan he brought in at the start. It doesn't matter where we got the players from the fact of the matter is we have gone from a club that was labeled as worse than Fitzroy to now being a top 8 contender, all with a coach in charge who you claim to be devoid of any real intelligence when it comes to football. You see that's what happens when you stick to a plan and don't go looking for shortcuts along the way to try and save your own arse.

 

[DrMike]

I like how Rayzor's opinion massively changes the second we lose, I'm sure I could quite easily find a number of posts talking up the squad and the way we play in the last month by him, yet the second the team is found wanting...

 

[Wacky Tiger]

Have to say every time i hear us talked about as the best i cringe. Yes we have top end talent but nowhere near the depth or the runs on the board. My gripe is with the media. As soon as we put together a little bit of form they are all over us pumping us up and when we fall / hit a speed hump then EVERYONE says the Tigers are getting ahead of themselves. Its all fcuking media driven and it gives me the shits.

 

[_Wang_]

Sick of a certain poster hanging back like a buzzard waiting for a loss and start potting the coach and club..
So over threads like this being dominated by the negativity..
You watch afl insider for instance and the experts are pretty positive around our game plan and state that we need to get the 1%ers and little things right and we will be ok but no some ****** Internet warrior knows better..
What a joke

 

[THE_GUN]

Whilst i love the way our midfield is developing , There is 1 aspect of our team that is really starting to concern me & after watching the Bombers v Magpies game today it was even more evident the area we are lacking - SPEED

Newman , Tuck , White , King & Nahas are all on the way out in the next 1-2 years in my opinion and the only player with genuine pace i can see is Delidio ---------- We Really Need to inject some genuine Speedy Mids with good skills

 

[Harmichael]

Whilst i love the way our midfield is developing , There is 1 aspect of our team that is really starting to concern me & after watching the Bombers v Magpies game today it was even more evident the area we are lacking - SPEED

Newman , Tuck , White , King & Nahas are all on the way out in the next 1-2 years in my opinion and the only player with genuine pace i can see is Delidio ---------- We Really Need to inject some genuine Speedy Mids with good skills

Yep - top priority next draft I'd say.

No more targetting specialist smalls either. Just get mids - they can play anywhere.

 

[living_in_syd]

Yep - top priority next draft I'd say.

No more targetting specialist smalls either. Just get mids - they can play anywhere.

Agreed. Why did everyone get something from the state legumes an nit us?

 

[Rayzorwire]

Sick of a certain poster hanging back like a buzzard waiting for a loss and start potting the coach and club..
So over threads like this being dominated by the negativity..
You watch afl insider for instance and the experts are pretty positive around our game plan and state that we need to get the 1%ers and little things right and we will be ok but no some ****** Internet warrior knows better..
What a joke

First of all, campaigner, you can't both whinge about my posting regarding Hardwick for weeks on end, then pretend I only started after the Collingwood game.

As I've said to you and your whinging jackal buddy's before, a thread can be anything YOU want it to be. There's plenty of you that want to whinge about me pointing out plain and simple reality to you, so join forces and SAY SOMETHING INTERESTING ON THE THREAD INSTEAD OF WHINGING ENDLESSLY BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE DOESN'T SHARE YOUR OPINIONS.

Failing all that, DON"T READ THE POSTS YOU KNOW YOU WON'T LIKE.

"WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! THEY INCLUDED A CARTOON IN THE NEWSPAPER WHICH I DON"T WANT TO READ, IT'S RUINING THE WHOLE PAPER AND MY DAY. WAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!! WHY CAN"T THE ENTIRE NEWSPAPER BE JUST THE WAY I WANT IT? LIKE, I"M JUST SO OVER IT!!!!!"

Grow up or shut up.

 

[tunksy]

Wallace era drafted/developed: Deledio, Cotchin, Jackson, Tuck, Edwards, King, McGuane, Newman, Rance, Reiwoldt, Vickery. (plus Foley in best-22)

Mature players developed at other clubs: Chaplin, Knights, Grigg, Maric, Houli, Morris, Petterd.

Hardwick era drafted/developed: Conca, Ellis, Martin, Grimes.

hmm edwards, king, rance, mcguane all looked to be delisted under wallet. could argue hardwick has turned them around. edit: jackson too?

riewoldt and vickery too, have come on under hardwick.

 

[Bazzar]

Sick of a certain poster hanging back like a buzzard waiting for a loss and start potting the coach and club..
So over threads like this being dominated by the negativity..
You watch afl insider for instance and the experts are pretty positive around our game plan and state that we need to get the 1%ers and little things right and we will be ok but no some ****** Internet warrior knows better..
What a joke

Well said.

 

[_Wang_]

First of all, silly, you can't both whinge about my posting regarding Hardwick for weeks on end, then pretend I only started after the Collingwood game.

As I've said to you and your whinging jackal buddy's before, a thread can be anything YOU want it to be. There's plenty of you that want to whinge about me pointing out plain and simple reality to you, so join forces and SAY SOMETHING INTERESTING ON THE THREAD INSTEAD OF WHINGING ENDLESSLY BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE DOESN'T SHARE YOUR OPINIONS.

Failing all that, DON"T READ THE POSTS YOU KNOW YOU WON'T LIKE.



Grow up or shut up.

Thanks for the clarity, you obviously don't get it.. Whinging endlessly lol.. That's your play book..
You seem to do your best work in the middle of the night Have a great day pal

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

To be a great midfield against all opposition we need to continue to weed out the fair weather non defensive players . Like it or not that includes not bringing them back in and being excepting that against lesser sides they won't be as dominate offensively , however they won't be dominated for prolonged periods against better sides . I thought that was the real positive on Friday night , the dominance wasn't as defined as it has been in previous weeks .
Grigg and Nahas out for more defensive minded players and we win Friday night it's as simply as that .
It's time to move both them on for Foley and Arnott and then we'll be do much closer to being a great midfield .