Best midfield - Spurs or City

[Cruyff14]

Yeah exactly, it's kind of bias in a way.

He's very good - at Barcelona. Put him in England he wouldn't get up off the ground.

 

[cocobonobo]

Or....... maybe it's the fact that City's front-line is far better than ours. They are the ones scoring the goals, not the midfielders.

Absolutely ridiculous comparisons as well. For starters, Parker is better than Barry, and VDV is better than Nasri, and Sandro and Modric both play different roles in our side to what Toure and Silva do for City.

Yes, I agree, city's front line is far better, although the fact of the matter is that, midfielder create goal's and thus are classified as assists. Without assists, goals would not occur. You dont just get the forwards coming back and collecting the ball from the goalkeeper and then dribbling around the whole team and then scoring. I mean fair-go, that might happen once and again although the emphisis is on team play, for example David Silva, his through ball's and crossing are what make man city so dangerous.

No worries mate, I respect your opinion that they are better players. It is definitely very close anyway.

Sorry, I was not aware that they played different role's, I was speaking generally better players in regards to physical and mental skills and ability.

 

[GrandBlue]

Yes, I agree, city's front line is far better, although the fact of the matter is that, midfielder create goal's and thus are classified as assists. Without assists, goals would not occur. You dont just get the forwards coming back and collecting the ball from the goalkeeper and then dribbling around the whole team and then scoring. I mean fair-go, that might happen once and again although the emphisis is on team play, for example David Silva, his through ball's and crossing are what make man city so dangerous.

No worries mate, I respect your opinion that they are better players. It is definitely very close anyway.

Sorry, I was not aware that they played different role's, I was speaking generally better players in regards to physical and mental skills and ability.

Guys like Nasri and Silva certainly do create goals, but Barry, Toure and De Jong have never really been creators, especially the latter.

Not to mention, if we're factoring assists in as a vital stat, it further proves my point that VDV is clearly better than Nasri. 13 goals and 8 assists in the EPL last season to Nasri's 10 goals and 1 assist.

As for Parker vs Barry, yeah, I think Parker just offers a lot more. Watching him in his last couple of games for us, he has a huge presence on the field, doing a stack both defensively and going forward. Barry's a bit of a poor man's Darren Fletcher for me, except all his managers seem to love him.

 

[moomba]

Once again, this begs the question of whether you watched Barca play early on last year. I wouldn't necessarily say Busquets is a better player than De Jong or Toure, but he plays an important role as the Anchor Man for both Barcelona (and the Spanish National team for that matter), a role Mascherano struggled in when given the chance.

I don't watch them every week but they are on the TV here every week. As a gloryhunting Barca supporter I'm well aware of the role Busquets plays. I also think you're a little confused about the "opportunity" that Mascherano got.

Start - 45 minutes
Bench - 11 minutes
Bench - 1 minute
Bench - 20 minutes
Start - 60 minutes
Start - 90 minutes
Bench - 12 minutes
Start - 90 minutes
Bench - 13 minutes
Bench - 30 minutes
Start - 90 minutes
Bench - 1 minute

That was his first dozen appearances for Barca, to suggest that he ever had the job to lose is wrong IMO.

Of course you're going to rotate, every team does. But there will always be important matches and for those, you have to have a best 11.

You might sacrifice Nasri, but I get a feeling Mancini will have him an automatic starter for every game. Likewise Barry (all managers love him).

I don't think we can play 4 attacking players against the strongest sides. If it's not Nasri it could only be Dzeko with Aguero/Tevez playing up front.

 

[Cruyff14]

Guys like Nasri and Silva certainly do create goals, but Barry, Toure and De Jong have never really been creators, especially the latter.

Not to mention, if we're factoring assists in as a vital stat, it further proves my point that VDV is clearly better than Nasri. 13 goals and 8 assists in the EPL last season to Nasri's 10 goals and 1 assist.

As for Parker vs Barry, yeah, I think Parker just offers a lot more. Watching him in his last couple of games for us, he has a huge presence on the field, doing a stack both defensively and going forward. Barry's a bit of a poor man's Darren Fletcher for me, except all his managers seem to love him.

Rafa was played further forward though, that needs to be taken into account re: Nasri.

Nasri went missing too from Jan, if he kept up his first half of the season form he would have scored close to 20 I think.

Parker is a much better player than Barry.

 

[moomba]

Guys like Nasri and Silva certainly do create goals, but Barry, Toure and De Jong have never really been creators, especially the latter.

Barry and De Jong play more the ball to the player that makes the assist, Barry in particular used to be one of Villas main creative threats.

Yaya scored 10 goals in all comps for us last season, and would have had plenty of assists.

Not to mention, if we're factoring assists in as a vital stat, it further proves my point that VDV is clearly better than Nasri. 13 goals and 8 assists in the EPL last season to Nasri's 10 goals and 1 assist.

Nasri has 4 or 5 assists already this season.

As for Parker vs Barry, yeah, I think Parker just offers a lot more. Watching him in his last couple of games for us, he has a huge presence on the field, doing a stack both defensively and going forward. Barry's a bit of a poor man's Darren Fletcher for me, except all his managers seem to love him.

The role Barry plays is nothing like the role Parker or Fletcher plays.

 

[GrandBlue]

Barry and De Jong play more the ball to the player that makes the assist, Barry in particular used to be one of Villas main creative threats.

Yaya scored 10 goals in all comps for us last season, and would have had plenty of assists.

Playing the ball to the assist-maker is something any player could do. Modric does it better than anyone on your playing list and Parker does it quite well too.

Toure had 4 assists in 39 appearances last season.

Nasri has 4 or 5 assists already this season.

Your point?

The role Barry plays is nothing like the role Parker or Fletcher plays.

How so? You say Barry is important for your link-up play but the latter two do plenty of it as well. When was the last time Barry played a one-two like this:
[youtube]kamks5csQyA[/youtube]

 

[moomba]

Playing the ball to the assist-maker is something any player could do. Modric does it better than anyone on your playing list and Parker does it quite well too.

Well it's clearly not something every player can do, don't be stupid.

Toure had 4 assists in 39 appearances last season.

Obviously not 39 league appearances, and Toure played for us 50 times last season so I'm going to go ahead and call that stat bollocks.

Your point?

You claim that VDV is better creator because Nasri only had 1 assist last season.

How so? You say Barry is important for your link-up play but the latter two do plenty of it as well. When was the last time Barry played a one-two like this:

Don't know, I'm not in the habit of watching Man United goals to compare my players with. And is it really relevant, Aguero hasn't scored an overhead kick for us yet, does that mean that he's not as good as Darius Vassell?

 

[moomba]

And if you're going to use goals and assists as a guide to the quality of a midfielder (bit of a flawed argument but there you go), lets just compare our best 4 and your best 4:

Silva - 4 goals, 9 assists
Toure - 6 goals, 7 assists
Barry - 2 goals, 3 assists
De Jong - 1 goal, 0 assists
TOTAL - 13 goals, 19 assists

Modric - 3 goals, 3 assists
Sandro - 1 goal, 0 assists
Lennon - 3 goals, 3 assists
Bale - 7 goals, 1 assist

I'll even give you Parkers 5 goals, 3 assists for West Ham as well.

TOTAL - 19 goals, 10 assists

http://www.myfootballfacts.com/Premier_League_Combined_2010-11.html

Our midfield doesn't do too bad, and I'm willing to bet the same 4 will end up with nearly double the goal/assists stats this season. You're three assists by Modric, Lennon and Parker would come in equal 3rd with Gareth Barry on our list of players capable of creating goals.

 

[GrandBlue]

Well it's clearly not something every player can do, don't be stupid.

It is though. Any player could lay a pass off to a player like Silva, who goes on to put a top quality through ball in for Aguero. Sandro, being the better attacking player than De Jong, would naturally be better at laying the ball off to the more creative players.

Obviously not 39 league appearances, and Toure played for us 50 times last season so I'm going to go ahead and call that stat bollocks.

Didn't list the FA/Europa League games for some reason, so the extra appearances were from International Duty.

You claim that VDV is better creator because Nasri only had 1 assist last season.

Well, usually when a player finishes a season with 7 more assists than the other, he's easily considered the better creator. VDV has been injured a bit this season and hasn't played as many minutes as Nasri, so making a judgement this early would be foolish.

Don't know, I'm not in the habit of watching Man United goals to compare my players with. And is it really relevant, Aguero hasn't scored an overhead kick for us yet, does that mean that he's not as good as Darius Vassell?

I just don't see how Barry and Parker/Fletcher's roles are too dissimilar. Does he play a one of a kind role nobody else plays for their respective team, meaning he can't be compared with anyone?

 

[GrandBlue]

And if you're going to use goals and assists as a guide to the quality of a midfielder (bit of a flawed argument but there you go), lets just compare our best 4 and your best 4:

Silva - 4 goals, 9 assists
Toure - 6 goals, 7 assists
Barry - 2 goals, 3 assists
De Jong - 1 goal, 0 assists
TOTAL - 13 goals, 19 assists

Modric - 3 goals, 3 assists
Sandro - 1 goal, 0 assists
Lennon - 3 goals, 3 assists
Bale - 7 goals, 1 assist

I'll even give you Parkers 5 goals, 3 assists for West Ham as well.

TOTAL - 19 goals, 10 assists

http://www.myfootballfacts.com/Premier_League_Combined_2010-11.html

Our midfield doesn't do too bad, and I'm willing to bet the same 4 will end up with nearly double the goal/assists stats this season. You're three assists by Modric, Lennon and Parker would come in equal 3rd with Gareth Barry on our list of players capable of creating goals.

That's an utterly stupid way of comparing players. So does that mean if Gareth Barry gets more assists than Modric, he's the better player?

Modric barely even played up the ground last year. His strength is his passing from the middle of the ground, picking out players in space.

and it's not hard to get assists when you're playing with Aguero and Dzeko upfront.

 

[moomba]

So far this season our four (including De Jong who has played 45 minutes so far) have 3 goals, 7 assists against 2 goals, 2 assists by Spurs five players.

 

[moomba]

That's an utterly stupid way of comparing players. So does that mean if Gareth Barry gets more assists than Modric, he's the better player?

No, but it does mean that anyone who says that Citys midfielders aren't capable of creating offensively is a dunce.

Modric barely even played up the ground last year. His strength is his passing from the middle of the ground, picking out players in space.

and it's not hard to get assists when you're playing with Aguero and Dzeko upfront.

Those were last years stats.

 

[GrandBlue]

No, but it does mean that anyone who says that Citys midfielders aren't capable of creating offensively is a dunce.

I said they were never really creaters (Barry in his Villa days, but not anymore). Silva is your creator and takes up almost half of the assists you posted in those ridiculous stats.

Those were last years stats.

and it's not hard to get assists when you're playing with Tevez upfront.

 

[moomba]

It is though. Any player could lay a pass off to a player like Silva, who goes on to put a top quality through ball in for Aguero. Sandro, being the better attacking player than De Jong, would naturally be better at laying the ball off to the more creative players.

So you're pretty much excusing Modric's lack of assists by sayinh that his strength is sitting back in the midfield picking out players in space - something any player can do, right?

Didn't list the FA/Europa League games for some reason, so the extra appearances were from International Duty.

Given my stats say that he had 7 assists, I'd have another look at yours. FWIW, Toure hasn't played for the Ivory Coast since the world cup the season before.

Well, usually when a player finishes a season with 7 more assists than the other, he's easily considered the better creator. VDV has been injured a bit this season and hasn't played as many minutes as Nasri, so making a judgement this early would be foolish.

So does City's 9 more assists mean that last season our midfield were better creating than Spurs?

Nasri has played 373 minutes (4 assists) to VDV's 304 (0 assists). Although I think VDV is credited with playing 90 minutes against us when he limped off with 20 minutes to go (but wasn't subbed).

I'd also say that last season VDV was a secondary forward, Nasri played in the midfield for Arsenal.

I just don't see how Barry and Parker/Fletcher's roles are too dissimilar. Does he play a one of a kind role nobody else plays for their respective team, meaning he can't be compared with anyone?

Barry isn't required to push forward, Parker and Fletcher both are.

 

[moomba]

I said they were never really creaters (Barry in his Villa days, but not anymore). Silva is your creator and takes up almost half of the assists you posted in those ridiculous stats.

So when VDV gets 7 more assists than Nasri it means that he's the better creator, when our midfield gets more assists than Spurs (and West Hams best player) they are ridiculous stats. Do you not get embarrassed at yourself sometimes?

and it's not hard to get assists when you're playing with Tevez upfront.

Ha ha ha ha.

 

[GrandBlue]

So you're pretty much excusing Modric's lack of assists by sayinh that his strength is sitting back in the midfield picking out players in space - something any player can do, right?

So does City's 9 more assists mean that last season our midfield were better creating than Spurs?

So when VDV gets 7 more assists than Nasri it means that he's the better creator, when our midfield gets more assists than Spurs (and West Hams best player) they are ridiculous stats. Do you not get embarrassed at yourself sometimes?

There's a big difference between laying off a short simple pass, or a one-two and what Modric does. Modric's passes usually put the player in an advantageous position while moving forward where with Man City, you often see Tevez working his arse off creating space for himself.

and you really think the fact that your team having more assists means you have a more creative midfield? If your #1 striker was Peter Crouch or Jermain Defoe last year, and ours was Tevez/Aguero/Dzeko, we'd smash you in assists.

All in all, using assists to compare how good creative players are is generally unreliable.

Nasri has played 373 minutes (4 assists) to VDV's 304 (0 assists). Although I think VDV is credited with playing 90 minutes against us when he limped off with 20 minutes to go (but wasn't subbed).

Now who has the s**t stats? VDV has two assists this year. To go with that, he was playing on 1 leg in his 45 minutes against Liverpool and he wasn't assisting a world class striker like Edin Dzeko or Sergio Aguero.

Given my stats say that he had 7 assists, I'd have another look at yours. FWIW, Toure hasn't played for the Ivory Coast since the world cup the season before.

He's made at least one appearance for the Ivory Coast:
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/69277/yaya-toure?cc=3436

Make of it what you will

I'd also say that last season VDV was a secondary forward, Nasri played in the midfield for Arsenal.

Nasri was playing the same role as him for a large part of last season, behind Chamakh. You think he scored 10 goals playing the same role as Modric?

Barry isn't required to push forward, Parker and Fletcher both are.

For a player who doesn't push forward, it's funny how he's already scored and has taken a fair few shots, 8 times as many as Fletcher and Parker combined in the Premier League.

 

[moomba]

I stand correct on VDV's assists if you say. So thats 4 to Nasri against 2 to VDV. I'm guessing thats a ridiculous stat until VDV gets a few more then it becomes meaningful.

He's made at least one appearance for the Ivory Coast:
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/69277/yaya-toure?cc=3436

Make of it what you will

A world cup warmup against Japan.

For a player who doesn't push forward, it's funny how he's already scored and has taken a fair few shots, 8 times as many as Fletcher and Parker combined in the Premier League.

Has Fletcher even played this season?

Anyway, the stats are there for all to see. Barry typically does less than 10% of his work in the final third, Parker and Fletcher about double that. FWIW Barry's goal was from a corner.