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Best player since jordan?

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jod23 said:
Ok I can attempt to be rational. Well what team is playing what team. If you are playing the 96-98 Bulls then Jordan wouldnt guard LeBron that much. I think Pippen and Rodman would take it in turns to frustrate LeBron, if LBJ goes to the perimeter then Pippen goes to him, if Miami try to play small ball and play LBJ at the 4 or 5 then Rodman goes to him.

Jordan would obviously guard Wade. This would be Miami's biggest problem. Wade would most probably get completely shut down and with Miami having no second option then there would be too much to do for LeBron. Defensively for Miami this matchup is an issue too. Wade is not a great defender. Who can they throw at Jordan? Wade, Chalmers, Jordan will score with too much ease. It has to be LeBron who goes to MJ. That leaves Wade guarding Pippen and I dont like that much up for Miami either, Pippen is too tall, too long.

Defensively I think the 96-98 Bulls would be too good for Miami and win in 4-5 games.

The 91-93 Bulls is good for Miami because there is no Denis Rodman meaning LeBron may get an easier time on offense. He still has to deal with Pippen and in this case you may see Jordan taking turns on LeBron. Horace Grant is a reasonable defender and a banger so he will relish the tough game LeBron plays but he is no Rodman. The problem here for Miami is Jordan. 4 years younger than the 96-98 version means Jordan is at the peak of his powers here. He isnt the jumpshooting, wily veteran of the 96-98 Bulls. This version is attack the rim, jump over everybody, dunk on whoever happens to be around at the time. Drop 50-60 at any point in time whilst also being pretty much the best defender in the league.

The Bulls are probably softer with Armstrong, Cartwright and Grant but Jordan is at his peak which offsets that and with Pippen being the great defender he is, he would limit LeBron. Bulls in 5 or 6 games.

Jordan to win Finals MVP in both cases.
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I'm not going that deep and analysing a potential finals match-up. I am just saying that LeBron at his defensive best guarding Jordan at his offensive best would be incredible to study, given they are probably the two best physical specimens to ever play the game.

And while I'd still back Jordan to get his 30, he has never faced an athlete on LeBron's level (has there ever been one?) so it would be interesting to watch how he would adjust, given LeBron can guard the perimeter and post equally well.
 
Thewlis Dish said:
I'm not going that deep and analysing a potential finals match-up. I am just saying that LeBron at his defensive best guarding Jordan at his offensive best would be incredible to study, given they are probably the two best physical specimens to ever play the game.
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Larry Bird was pretty damn good proof that you didn't need to be a massive athlete to guard MJ well. You just needed to be a damn good basketballer. Bird played MJ excellently.

Not saying Bird wasn't a good athlete, but obviously he's no LeBron.
 
I reckon probably the only player of Jordan's era that was comparable to Lebron in terms of raw athletic ability is Dominique Wilkens, although a young James Worthy was also a complete freak. I'm also not sure that Pippen wasn't overall a better athlete than Jordan, Scottie's play above the ring was astonishing.

The thing which no player who guarded Jordan in his prime ever had an answer to, and I'm not sure there is an answer to was that fadeaway jumper from the high post- he could do it equally well spinning left or right, which mean it didn't matter how defenders played him, his leap made it unblockable, and if people overplayed him by a millimetre he'd go past them to the hoop or draw a foul and nail the free throws. There's some mental footage out there on youtube of Jordan, aged 50, schooling some young buck with that move in a gym, and its got that same metronomic consistency that made it such a weapon. Basically come rain hail or shine, he could shoot that shot spinning left or right at better than .500, and I don't think Lebron could do a thing about it

One of the things I love about the golden era of NBA is it is obvious that Jordan added that shot after seeing Bird torment people with it in the mid 80s. Completely different players, but I don't think it is an accident that Bird is one of the few people who Jordan always speaks about with respect.
 
The 90s as a whole is an overrated era of basketball in my opinion.

Besides from the Bulls, there wasn't really another team with great depth and that was a huge reason why you saw the Bulls go 72-10. Don't try and convince me otherwise.

I can't remember off the top of my head as I'm younger and haven't really seen as much 80s and 90s ball as others, but Simmons summed it up perfectly in his greatest teams chapter of his book.
 

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Chadwiko said:
Larry Bird was pretty damn good proof that you didn't need to be a massive athlete to guard MJ well. You just needed to be a damn good basketballer. Bird played MJ excellently.

Not saying Bird wasn't a good athlete, but obviously he's no LeBron.
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Jordan did drop 63 on Bird though in the playoffs. Still lost, Boston were good and MJ had no help.
 
Thewlis Dish said:
I'm not going that deep and analysing a potential finals match-up. I am just saying that LeBron at his defensive best guarding Jordan at his offensive best would be incredible to study, given they are probably the two best physical specimens to ever play the game.

And while I'd still back Jordan to get his 30, he has never faced an athlete on LeBron's level (has there ever been one?) so it would be interesting to watch how he would adjust, given LeBron can guard the perimeter and post equally well.
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Whilst it would be a matchup for the ages, is LeBron that great of a defender. I think he is a very good defender and a hell of an athlete but is he quick enough to guard Jordan on the perimeter? He is 6'8 and carrying a lot more muscle. Jordan in my opinion was the perfect balance between strength and speed. He was 6'6 but about 190. LeBron is what, 6'8 and 240? Could LeBron go with him. Im not so sure.

Obviously as an athlete LeBron is crazy but im not sure that would bother Jordan too much. Jordan often beat people with pure athleticism, jump over them, dunk on them, too quick, too strong but later in his career he started beating people with his brain. LeBron is a great defender but nobody and I mean nobody can do anything about Jordan's fadeaway jumper. I saw him at 40 in his last All Star Game hit a fade away jumper in the post to win the game over Marion. Marion is 6'9/6'10 and can jump over anyone. Yet at full stretch, he could do nothing about Jordan's shot, which duly went in. Cant remember who ruined it by fouling Kobe on a long three so that Jordan's shot wasnt the game winner. But that was MJ at 40.

As athletic as LeBron is, I still dont think he could do much to slow Jordan down. Jordan just had way too much in his locker. He could do anything on offense, score in so many different ways. Absolute nightmare.

Also there is Jordan's competitive mind. If we were lucky enough to witness it, and the hype that people talk about it. Jordan would work himself into a frenzy. I remember whenever anybody came out with a Jordan stopper, Detriots Jordan Rules, anything that went public to try to stop MJ, he made it a mission to o completely destroy, and destroy all he would. But he is the GOAT after all so...
 
nbaman1 said:
The 90s as a whole is an overrated era of basketball in my opinion.

Besides from the Bulls, there wasn't really another team with great depth and that was a huge reason why you saw the Bulls go 72-10. Don't try and convince me otherwise.

I can't remember off the top of my head as I'm younger and haven't really seen as much 80s and 90s ball as others, but Simmons summed it up perfectly in his greatest teams chapter of his book.
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Absolute crap. The Bulls went 72-10 because they were the greatest team perhaps ever. 72-10 is ridiculous, completely ridiculous. To win that many games in a season is just a crazy record. They didnt do it cos nobody was any good, they did it because they were THAT good.

The 90's saw the golden age in Centers in the history of the NBA. Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, some of the greatest big men the game has ever seen, all in the same decade. Three of the top 5 PF's ever in Duncan (late 90's granted) Malone and Barkley... HOFers Payton, Stockton, Miller, Drexler and the arrival of players like Kidd, Hill, Penny, Webber etc etc... so many great players in the 90's.

I think you cray.
 
Thewlis Dish said:
When he wants to be (ie - playoffs) LeBron is a phenomenal defensive player.
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And that there is the difference between Jordan and LBJ and why LBJ will never be as great. Jordan didnt understand when he wants to be. It just was... all the time. 1st second of the first game of the season to the last second in a blow out in a mid season back to back to the last second of the NBA Finals. Jordan was on, all the time.
 
jod23 said:
Absolute crap. The Bulls went 72-10 because they were the greatest team perhaps ever. 72-10 is ridiculous, completely ridiculous. To win that many games in a season is just a crazy record. They didnt do it cos nobody was any good, they did it because they were THAT good.

The 90's saw the golden age in Centers in the history of the NBA. Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, some of the greatest big men the game has ever seen, all in the same decade. Three of the top 5 PF's ever in Duncan (late 90's granted) Malone and Barkley... HOFers Payton, Stockton, Miller, Drexler and the arrival of players like Kidd, Hill, Penny, Webber etc etc... so many great players in the 90's.

I think you cray.
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And a golden age of shit teams due to bad contracts and expansion. The Grizzlies and Raptors came into the league and six teams won 26 or less, compared to just 2 in '86. The Jazz got worse and worse as the decade went on ability wise and they upped their wins. The West was becoming very weak and the Bulls were an older team and yet they won 72 games. Does that not speak volumes about the state of the league in 1995-1996? Jordan and Pippen were better in '92.

Has there been any other era where one guy as been able to dominate like Jordan did? No, and please don't crap on about the greatness of MJ. Larry Bird was damn great as was Magic and yet they didn't dominate their era, nor did Wilt or Kobe/Duncan today. The 1990s was a watered down time in basketball. Sure, you had some great players, but most teams had some very weak supporting casts and there was nothing good in between the best teams and the worst teams.
 
nbaman1 said:
And a golden age of shit teams due to bad contracts and expansion. The Grizzlies and Raptors came into the league and six teams won 26 or less, compared to just 2 in '86. The Jazz got worse and worse as the decade went on ability wise and they upped their wins. The West was becoming very weak and the Bulls were an older team and yet they won 72 games. Does that not speak volumes about the state of the league in 1995-1996? Jordan and Pippen were better in '92.

Has there been any other era where one guy as been able to dominate like Jordan did? No, and please don't crap on about the greatness of MJ. Larry Bird was damn great as was Magic and yet they didn't dominate their era, nor did Wilt or Kobe/Duncan today. The 1990s was a watered down time in basketball. Sure, you had some great players, but most teams had some very weak supporting casts and there was nothing good in between the best teams and the worst teams.
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A lot of those teams in the 90's would beat on teams from the 2000's. The 97/98 Pacers, early 90's Knicks, 93 Suns, 97/98 Jazz, 96 Sonics, early 90's Portland. Id back all those teams to beat Kobe's latest championship Lakers side or Boston's title. The Pistons in early 2000. The later Spurs titles. Dallas two years ago. And none of those teams I mentioned won a title.

You talk absolute nonsense bro.
 

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jod23 said:
A lot of those teams in the 90's would beat on teams from the 2000's. The 97/98 Pacers, early 90's Knicks, 93 Suns, 97/98 Jazz, 96 Sonics, early 90's Portland. Id back all those teams to beat Kobe's latest championship Lakers side or Boston's title. The Pistons in early 2000. The later Spurs titles. Dallas two years ago. And none of those teams I mentioned won a title.

You talk absolute nonsense bro.
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It's not nonsense. It's a fact that the 90s had more teams which led to less depth on teams and more teams losing a lot more than they won.

I wouldn't really be comparing 90s teams to the 00s anyway. Everyone knows that the 00s were significantly weaker than any other era due to the amount of teams, even bigger contracts and HS players being on the end of huge contracts that they didn't deserve.
 
Can someone point to a team in the past five to ten years where two of their starters (75/80 games started, 49/78 games started respectively) have averaged 7.8ppg and 5.5rpg (forward) and 5.7ppg and 3.5rpg (center) respectively and managed to have the best record in the conference?

That's 1990's basketball.

Bonus points if you can name the players and the team.
 
Wickzki said:
Can someone point to a team in the past five to ten years where two of their starters (75/80 games started, 49/78 games started respectively) have averaged 7.8ppg and 5.5rpg (forward) and 5.7ppg and 3.5rpg (center) respectively and managed to have the best record in the conference?

That's 1990's basketball.

Bonus points if you can name the players and the team.
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I don't know the team. But the favourite for this years title has one player who starts averaging 8.5ppg and 3.5apg (point guard) and 3.9ppg and 5.4rpg (power forward).

So I guess 90s basketball never stopped ...
 

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jod23 said:
And that there is the difference between Jordan and LBJ and why LBJ will never be as great. Jordan didnt understand when he wants to be. It just was... all the time. 1st second of the first game of the season to the last second in a blow out in a mid season back to back to the last second of the NBA Finals. Jordan was on, all the time.
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Two points.

1) LeBron is not on MJ's level. In fact, he is probably 2-3 rings and a few finals MVPs away from even being in the conversation. But I also don't think the gap is as big as people think, and I think it will take five years after LeBron retires before people truly realise what a blessing to the sport he is, and where his rightful place in history is.

2) There are numerous stories around about the Bulls having an eye on the playoffs from very early in the piece, especially after they'd won a couple of titles. If you truly believe MJ played with the same intensity for 82 games and then the playoffs every single season then you are buying into the legend a bit too much.

His gift was he was still head and shoulders the best player on the court at 75% effort, which is exactly the gift that LeBron has too.
 
Slightly beside the point this, but on matters retro how gold was Larry Bird's response to Kobe's suggestion last year that the 2012 dream team would beat the 1992 dream team.

"They probably could. I haven't played in 20 years and we're all old now."
 
Total_Juddshanks said:
Slightly beside the point this, but on matters retro how gold was Larry Bird's response to Kobe's suggestion last year that the 2012 dream team would beat the 1992 dream team.

"They probably could. I haven't played in 20 years and we're all old now."
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Hahah that is gold. I like how Bird just replies with humour cos he knows the 92 Dream Team would destroy the 2012 version.
 
Thewlis Dish said:
Two points.

1) LeBron is not on MJ's level. In fact, he is probably 2-3 rings and a few finals MVPs away from even being in the conversation. But I also don't think the gap is as big as people think, and I think it will take five years after LeBron retires before people truly realise what a blessing to the sport he is, and where his rightful place in history is.

2) There are numerous stories around about the Bulls having an eye on the playoffs from very early in the piece, especially after they'd won a couple of titles. If you truly believe MJ played with the same intensity for 82 games and then the playoffs every single season then you are buying into the legend a bit too much.

His gift was he was still head and shoulders the best player on the court at 75% effort, which is exactly the gift that LeBron has too.
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1) Fair point, I dont think LBJ is on his level either and he would probably need to win about 8 titles to even get in the conversation. If he wins 4 or 5 rings then he will probably settle in the top 5 somewhere when he is done.

2) Maybe I am buying into the legend a little but from all reports Jordan is borderline crazy when it comes to competing. If he was on the court, I bet my life he was playing at 1000% to win the game. Jordan has a sickness. Hates to lose at checkers nevermind an NBA game. He has issues.
 

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