Big Cox

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#76
Im sorry but I still think you are grossly undervaluing White, and clearly we won't be able to agree on that.

I understand Whites limitations, and i can see why a lot of fans dont value him, but the reality (IMO) is that none of those other guys dont come close to providing what White does at this point.

I agree with the general concept of planning for the future - but players have to show their worth. Give youngsters a couple of games here or there when they are ready, and if they show value - they stay- if they don't they get dropped and wait til their next turn.
If someone younger comes in and plays as good as White, or even provides 90% of his production, then sure keep him in the team and that would clearly be the better long term option.
But if someone is only able to provide 60-70% of Whites value, even if younger and having "potential" - then no we cannot afford to keep playing him regularly at the expense of a senior player.
But imagine if a Cox continues to develop where he becomes a good counter point to Cloke, supporting the ruck and being 7 foot tall he would make the opposition have kittens*.


* Geelong having kittens may be ok for them
 

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Jelly Bean

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#77
Yep, its the difference between contending and building.

If we were still building, then I absolutely advocate playing younger players in front of the older ones for development, but I think that the coaching panel will view 2016 as a genuine contention year, and therefore will be looking for wins rather than getting games into young players.

The only point they will deliberately go young would be if they feel they can't contend this year, which will really only happen when it becomes impossible to make finals.
 

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#78
Im sorry but I still think you are grossly undervaluing White, and clearly we won't be able to agree on that.

I understand Whites limitations, and i can see why a lot of fans dont value him, but the reality (IMO) is that none of those other guys dont come close to providing what White does at this point.

I agree with the general concept of planning for the future - but players have to show their worth. Give youngsters a couple of games here or there when they are ready, and if they show value - they stay- if they don't they get dropped and wait til their next turn.
If someone younger comes in and plays as good as White, or even provides 90% of his production, then sure keep him in the team and that would clearly be the better long term option.
But if someone is only able to provide 60-70% of Whites value, even if younger and having "potential" - then no we cannot afford to keep playing him regularly at the expense of a senior player.
It depends on where you draw the line with key forwards as to what is adequate. I don't see less than 30 goals, less than 110 marks or less than 250 disposals to be adequate for a key forward and White in his career has never reached any of those milestones. And being in his late 20s, he is going to remain largely who he is today. So White should in my view anyway have been delisted at the end of last season given his lack of performance at his age. Same goes with Gault who likewise is not an AFL standard performer. Key forwards need to have an element of superiority by position, it's not a position for role players, it's a position for stars and I have no interest in mediocre key forwards.

With a view towards more immediate performance Ben Reid is a pretty easy answer as that second key forward if we're satisfied with our key defence options - and Brown/Frost/Marsh all offer more down back relative to what White offers up front in my view. Or otherwise if we're more open to a longer term approach which increasingly I am as I'm not seeing this team contending next year and if you really want Reid down back then Moore is the way to go as someone who from his third or fourth season may be able to exceed those 30 (goal), 110 (mark) and 250 (disposal) stats. And with his work ethic and talent, he'll be better next season and may achieve the numbers White otherwise would at AFL level next season. I could see Moore going for 25 goals, 90 marks and getting 200 disposals next season which would exceed Jesse White's career averages already.

So even on projected performance next season I don't see a situation where White will be the best option. Grundy and Witts are better ruckmen with Cox also able to pass White by as a ruckman. Cloke and Reid are better key forwards and Moore next season has the ability to equal or pass White by as soon as next season be it as a pure key forward or relieving ruck.
 

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#79
I don't think it's a good strategy favouring young players ahead of experienced players. Teams like GWS and Suns will always beat us at that game (and look how far they have haven't gone with that policy)

IMHO selection should always be built around a strong, experienced onfield leadership core ...

... Plus ...

... Everything around that should be merits based. If Philips has better form than Varcoe - cool, pick Philips - but until then Varcoe plays ahead of him.

There should always be healthy competition for spots.
 

mike123

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#80
I don't think it's a good strategy favouring young players ahead of experienced players. Teams like GWS and Suns will always beat us at that game (and look how far they have haven't gone with that policy)

IMHO selection should always be built around a strong, experienced onfield leadership core ...

... Plus ...

... Everything around that should be merits based. If Philips has better form than Varcoe - cool, pick Philips - but until then Varcoe plays ahead of him.

There should always be healthy competition for spots.
I don't agree with that example, as Varcoe is an AFL standard performer. White however is not IMO so the form difference doesn't matter as much.
 

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#81
I don't think it's a good strategy favouring young players ahead of experienced players. Teams like GWS and Suns will always beat us at that game (and look how far they have haven't gone with that policy)

IMHO selection should always be built around a strong, experienced onfield leadership core ...

... Plus ...

... Everything around that should be merits based. If Philips has better form than Varcoe - cool, pick Philips - but until then Varcoe plays ahead of him.

There should always be healthy competition for spots.
There is a balance to how many young guys should play and GWS and Gold Coast have and you're absolutely correct in this point failed due to a lack of veterans, though GWS have more recently benefited through the additions of some high level veterans with Mumford particularly in their case the difference between winning and losing most games, such is his influence.

As strange as it may sound I'm not as confident in GWS' or Gold Coast's youth. Gold Coast I don't see developing or taking that step towards premiership contention. It's Gary Ablett's team as the 90s/00s Collingwood was Nathan Buckley's. It's a one man show and while Gold Coast certainly have some exceptional young players, the talent isn't so overwhelming that I see a premiership happening any time soon where I'd show any level of concern towards them. GWS on the other hand have the most quality young talent, but there are a few things make me rest easier than perhaps I should. GWS without Mumford firstly just aren't that good, and he is regularly injured and as a 30 year old he won't have that much AFL left in him. The other element is every year guys leave that club and that element creates instability and it makes it hard for a group to develop chemistry which will hurt GWS' chances at building a winner and while I fully expect them at some point to win a flag, I just don't as a result of this dynamic feel threatened by them as I initially did when I looked at all their various draft concessions. As a young team, GWS will have to over-pay to retain their better youth, and they won't be able to pay everyone, so it will almost certainly prove a revolving cycle of having to trade players for picks and continuing to get younger which I'm not anticipating will result in overly rapid progress from them either.

One point that you make. And it would in and of it's own be an interesting discussion point. But who is our onfield leadership core? Pendlebury. Then who? The older guys bring more experience and with that some mild leadership ability, but I wouldn't from our veterans outside of Pendlebury see anyone else who is an exceptional leader. And looking at some of the younger guys, I'm seeing several of them already as first and second year players demonstrating greater leadership qualities than our veterans with Moore, Adams, Grundy and Cox maybe those next best leaders despite their mostly tender ages and limited senior AFL experience.

Form I also agree comes into it. Varcoe as the example you use. If he plays like he did last year or better. He is an automatic selection. Same story with Greenwood if he plays as he did in 2014 for North Melbourne and do as he did late season. And it would take a young guy to out and out outperform them for their positions in the senior side to come into question. If however a 25+ year old is playing mediocre footy I'd be very quick to pull the trigger and give a young guy from this group their position, conditional on their form being an a level that is acceptable for AFL play, their improvement trending strongly upward and their work ethic being there.

In terms of going young. I think v GWS and Gold Coast that we would develop before either team. We've got the player development, guys aren't asking to leave and we're the very opposite as a club players are acknowledging as a desirable destination club given our promising young core group and we've also got the leadership and work ethic from our young core (unlike Gold Coast by contrast) in conjunction with our long time ability to develop youth for them to develop much more quickly.

So what may in most situations be conventional wisdom, being that you need men, experience and veteran leadership to build a winning team. I see Collingwood for the reasons listed above to be the exception and a team that will only succeed with a heavily leaning towards giving the youth senior games over the less talented/productive 24+ years and older types.
 

76woodenspooners

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#82
One point that you make. And it would in and of it's own be an interesting discussion point. But who is our onfield leadership core? Pendlebury. Then who? The older guys bring more experience and with that some mild leadership ability, but I wouldn't from our veterans outside of Pendlebury see anyone else who is an exceptional leader. And looking at some of the younger guys, I'm seeing several of them already as first and second year players demonstrating greater leadership qualities than our veterans with Moore, Adams, Grundy and Cox maybe those next best leaders despite their mostly tender ages and limited senior AFL experience.
I think a couple of important leadership traits are ...

(1) To see and understand the game beyond their own matchup

(2) When they talk, their team-mates listen and act.

To that end, I see our leadership core as being ...

Backline: Brown, maybe perhaps Reid to a lesser extent? I see Frosty having good traits (seems to confidently direct traffic for his experience level). Maybe Langdon one day a few years from now.

Centres: Pendlebury obviously. Sidebottom I see as somebody who could emerge from the shadows to be a strong leader (perhaps in the way Burns was). Adams - yes. Crisp - could be one day in the future. DeGoey - too early to say, but wouldn't be surprised.

Forwards: Cloke (by all reports he has improved his leadership credentials significantly over the last season) ...

... And, um, er, timeout ... There was 1960's film called "The Trouble with Angels". Do you know it? It's set in a catholic girls' school run by an order of nuns. There were a couple of girls who were trouble makers - one in particular. At the end of the movie the trouble maker shocks everyone by joining the convent ...

... Anyway, back on topic: I think Fasolo has the potential to become a leader if he can grow up. It might see a bit 'out there', but I don't see too many other leaders coming through in our forward line. Moore maybe, but realistically I think that's a fair way into the future - I just can't see Moore effectively directing players like Fasolo, Blair, Broomhead, Cloke, White for a few years yet. Besides, Moore needs to focus on his own development. Cox? - I don't see him satisfying either category (1) or (2) above for many years yet. Grundy? Unless he develops into a permanent forward he's too part-time.

I'd add Caff to that list of leaders if he can get on the park.

In terms of going young. I think v GWS and Gold Coast that we would develop before either team. We've got the player development, guys aren't asking to leave and we're the very opposite as a club players are acknowledging as a desirable destination club given our promising young core group and we've also got the leadership and work ethic from our young core (unlike Gold Coast by contrast) in conjunction with our long time ability to develop youth for them to develop much more quickly.
But is the reason for all this good stuff at Collingwood because we have built a youthful list around a strong experienced core?
 
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Vicky Park

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#83
I'm not especially confident that Cox will make it, given his background, and his age coming into 2016 (25?). But his height really is a rare and outstanding attribute, which I hope the club will exploit as much as possible. Can he be taught to use this in a way which compensates for his immature/undeveloped footy skills and nous? His five goal game in the VFL was very encouraging.
 

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#84
I don't think it's a good strategy favouring young players ahead of experienced players. Teams like GWS and Suns will always beat us at that game (and look how far they have haven't gone with that policy)

IMHO selection should always be built around a strong, experienced onfield leadership core ...

... Plus ...

... Everything around that should be merits based. If Philips has better form than Varcoe - cool, pick Philips - but until then Varcoe plays ahead of him.

There should always be healthy competition for spots.
Only issue is if we keep playing the five of Toovey, Goldsack, Maccaffer, Blair, and White, as a group and my own grouping of the first four named then we are in serious trouble.

The four (possum eyes, the sack, the beard, the really small one) have all had their premiership, contributed well to is BUT if they are the mainstay as perhaps you are advocating then we are in big big big trouble.
Medium senior talent is the best description of them.
If we stay and build around them as a group, because of them senior leadership, may as well book September holidays with no fear that sudden plans may change.

It will be Maynard, Langdon, Marsh, Williams, De Goey, Adams, Treloar (him!), Crisp, Scharenberg ( if he becomes fit) Elliot, Aish, Grundy, Moore et al that's the leadership we must invest in. That is only future than may deliver glory years, and;

I'm afraid the Good ship Toovey, Macaffer, Goldsack, Blair that's the past, had their time, now they need to occupy the pleasant grasses of Victoria Park and such suburban grounds.
 

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#85
Only issue is if we keep playing the five of Toovey, Goldsack, Maccaffer, Blair, and White, as a group and my own grouping of the first four named then we are in serious trouble.

The four (possum eyes, the sack, the beard, the really small one) have all had their premiership, contributed well to is BUT if they are the mainstay as perhaps you are advocating then we are in big big big trouble.
Medium senior talent is the best description of them.
If we stay and build around them as a group, because of them senior leadership, may as well book September holidays with no fear that sudden plans may change.

It will be Maynard, Langdon, Marsh, Williams, De Goey, Adams, Treloar (him!), Crisp, Scharenberg ( if he becomes fit) Elliot, Aish, Grundy, Moore et al that's the leadership we must invest in. That is only future than may deliver glory years, and;

I'm afraid the Good ship Toovey, Macaffer, Goldsack, Blair that's the past, had their time, now they need to occupy the pleasant grasses of Victoria Park and such suburban grounds.
Well of those:
Ive already made my opinion about White known above.
Goldsack was clearly phased out last year and with Moore,Howe, Marsh, Langdon, Shaz (when healthy) etc. I dont see him being any more than a backup. Should get around 5-8 games slotting in here or there, but only dependant on form/health of others.
Blair is debateable - but again looks like the others have begun to pass him. I still think he can be useful but will have a lot of competition for a SF spot. Should get 10-15 games and still be a contributor, but will be behind others in the pecking order.
No idea about Caff. With Greenwood, Crisp, Adams & De Goey, dont really have need for a tagger. I still think Caff is useful in that role for the odd game, but he probably needs to become a damaging medium F to get any AFL games again.

Toovey i disagree on. If we keep use guys like Marley & Maynard pushing up into the midfield then I think we still need Tooves as a lockdown small. I see Sinclair as the possible replacement for that. (Williams can do it, but is damaging when given the freedom to attack more, so i think he neeeds to keep being given that flexibility)
 

76woodenspooners

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#86
Only issue is if we keep playing the five of Toovey, Goldsack, Maccaffer, Blair, and White, as a group and my own grouping of the first four named then we are in serious trouble.

The four (possum eyes, the sack, the beard, the really small one) have all had their premiership, contributed well to is BUT if they are the mainstay as perhaps you are advocating then we are in big big big trouble.
Medium senior talent is the best description of them.
If we stay and build around them as a group, because of them senior leadership, may as well book September holidays with no fear that sudden plans may change.

It will be Maynard, Langdon, Marsh, Williams, De Goey, Adams, Treloar (him!), Crisp, Scharenberg ( if he becomes fit) Elliot, Aish, Grundy, Moore et al that's the leadership we must invest in. That is only future than may deliver glory years, and;

I'm afraid the Good ship Toovey, Macaffer, Goldsack, Blair that's the past, had their time, now they need to occupy the pleasant grasses of Victoria Park and such suburban grounds.
Bit harsh on Caff IMHO. So much of footy is between the ears, and Caff has shown he's got the right stuff there. He's already re-invented himself once, he might very well do it again. And he is a good candidate for providing some much needed onfield leadership.

Goldsack is a Swiss Army knife - never the preferred tool in the kit, but mighty handy in cases of emergency. He's always been that, and always will be. I struggle to see any of our kids filling that role just yet ... Gault maybe? QED.

Toovey - yes, he may very well be nearing the end of his career - but a very handy experienced player in the squad who the youngsters have to work hard to take a spot from.

Blair - it is all too easy to forget that he had a career best start to 2015. Averaged 2 goals and 19 disposals in the first three games - dunno why he dropped off. If he can't find it again he'll end up the way of Seedsman. The thing going for Blair is that our forward line (unlike our backline and midfield) is a bit devoid of up-and-coming talent.
 

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#87
I have a simple 2016 thought

If the foursome Blair, Goldsack, Macaffer and Toovey are playing regular senior footy together something has gone terribly wrong.

Either of or combination:

Injury list very large
Youngsters haven't come on
We are not that good

Place White as a separate category, if gets regular senior footy, see above, or something has clicked and he's better than we thought. Hmmmmmm
He's ok, but lacks footy smarts.

If we are a top team, likely white is watching from Victoria park
At the end of 2009, no one rated Leroy Brown... We all know what happened in 2010! Maybe White can do the same and have a big 2016... :rainbow:
 

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#88
I think a couple of important leadership traits are ...

(1) To see and understand the game beyond their own matchup

(2) When they talk, their team-mates listen and act.

To that end, I see our leadership core as being ...

Backline: Brown, maybe perhaps Reid to a lesser extent? I see Frosty having good traits (seems to confidently direct traffic for his experience level). Maybe Langdon one day a few years from now.

Centres: Pendlebury obviously. Sidebottom I see as somebody who could emerge from the shadows to be a strong leader (perhaps in the way Burns was). Adams - yes. Crisp - could be one day in the future. DeGoey - too early to say, but wouldn't be surprised.

Forwards: Cloke (by all reports he has improved his leadership credentials significantly over the last season) ...

... And, um, er, timeout ... There was 1960's film called "The Trouble with Angels". Do you know it? It's set in a catholic girls' school run by an order of nuns. There were a couple of girls who were trouble makers - one in particular. At the end of the movie the trouble maker shocks everyone by joining the convent ...

... Anyway, back on topic: I think Fasolo has the potential to become a leader if he can grow up. It might see a bit 'out there', but I don't see too many other leaders coming through in our forward line. Moore maybe, but realistically I think that's a fair way into the future - I just can't see Moore effectively directing players like Fasolo, Blair, Broomhead, Cloke, White for a few years yet. Besides, Moore needs to focus on his own development. Cox? - I don't see him satisfying either category (1) or (2) above for many years yet. Grundy? Unless he develops into a permanent forward he's too part-time.

I'd add Caff to that list of leaders if he can get on the park.

But is the reason for all this good stuff at Collingwood because we have built a youthful list around a strong experienced core?
I like the Fasolo name drop and as a leader while he'll always be himself, last year felt like the year he started to use his personality for good and start to show some clear leadership capabilities on field. So that's something I'll definitely look for more of from him next season.

With Moore I wouldn't be so quick to count him out as a leader. As someone going into his second year he is certainly still green and learning from an AFL play perspective. In saying that his work ethic is clearly there, but more directly as a leader I've seen hints of it at VFL level last year but through the TAC Cup and U18 championships back in 2014 I really saw it consistently, running the front half, talking and instructing out on the field and coming off the field, presumably in the rooms not that I had that kind of access. I agree that the key is individual development and getting the leadership side to his game later, so if that comes early, that's fine, but optional.

The discussion of why we were a destination club last offseason is an interesting one, and we'd have to review the interviews of Treloar, Howe and Aish to get their comments on exactly why they joined the club. The comments from what I can recall were mostly centred around the quality and appeal towards our young core group with the likes of Pendlebury, Swan and Cloke further adding to that appeal.
What I didn't hear were comments suggesting that any of Treloar/Howe/Aish are coming to the club to play alongside White, Macaffer or Blair. So they're all looking at the club as a team that can be good now, but also continue to improve over the coming seasons due to the quality of the youth.

I'm not especially confident that Cox will make it, given his background, and his age coming into 2016 (25?). But his height really is a rare and outstanding attribute, which I hope the club will exploit as much as possible. Can he be taught to use this in a way which compensates for his immature/undeveloped footy skills and nous? His five goal game in the VFL was very encouraging.
Age is the element working against Cox. But then again that's roughly the age ruckmen start to come into their own. So if he comes good in 2016 or 2017. We've got someone.

With Grundy and Witts competing with him for a position, maybe Moore depending on the team balance we want. So it's going to be touch. But with his reported work ethic which is thought to be of a best at club standard. I can't with that, his rate of improvement last year and at his height count him out.
 

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#89
Folks

Some fine points.
My main contention with the four, Toovey, Goldsack, Maccaffer, Blair is

If ALL four are playing together in the seniors consistently something has gone awry.
I'm quite sure all of them will get games here and there (eg injuries, one or other being in exceptional form, special role here and there) but f they are a regular quartet as seniors then I fear disappointment and will be booking a nice trip in September.

I respect them greatly but I think we need to have others pressing ahead of them.
 

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#90
The discussion of why we were a destination club last offseason is an interesting one, and we'd have to review the interviews of Treloar, Howe and Aish to get their comments on exactly why they joined the club. The comments from what I can recall were mostly centred around the quality and appeal towards our young core group with the likes of Pendlebury, Swan and Cloke further adding to that appeal.
What I didn't hear were comments suggesting that any of Treloar/Howe/Aish are coming to the club to play alongside White, Macaffer or Blair. So they're all looking at the club as a team that can be good now, but also continue to improve over the coming seasons due to the quality of the youth.
I agree with the general theme of your post - but I think that bolded line is unecessary and you are being unfair to link that to your opinions of those guys (White, Caff, Blair).

Do you seriously ever expect a recruit to mention guys like that?
Did someone signing at Hawthorn talk about wanting to play alongside Hale, Spangher and Sewell? Would you expect Bennell to talk about playing alongside Dawson, Mzungu and Pearce? What about Danger wanting to play with Lonergan and Mackie? Or Beams with Staker and Merrett?
Just because an older player isn't a star, doesn't mean they don't have an important role to play in the team. Of course no recruit is gonna focus on role players like that - it doesnt change the value that they can still offer to the team.
 

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#91
I agree with the general theme of your post - but I think that bolded line is unecessary and you are being unfair to link that to your opinions of those guys (White, Caff, Blair).

Do you seriously ever expect a recruit to mention guys like that?
Did someone signing at Hawthorn talk about wanting to play alongside Hale, Spangher and Sewell? Would you expect Bennell to talk about playing alongside Dawson, Mzungu and Pearce? What about Danger wanting to play with Lonergan and Mackie? Or Beams with Staker and Merrett?
Just because an older player isn't a star, doesn't mean they don't have an important role to play in the team. Of course no recruit is gonna focus on role players like that - it doesnt change the value that they can still offer to the team.
Agree, and the fact that those players make those comments in an interview shouldn't dictate selection policy for Bucks and co.
 

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#92
I agree with the general theme of your post - but I think that bolded line is unecessary and you are being unfair to link that to your opinions of those guys (White, Caff, Blair).

Do you seriously ever expect a recruit to mention guys like that?
Did someone signing at Hawthorn talk about wanting to play alongside Hale, Spangher and Sewell? Would you expect Bennell to talk about playing alongside Dawson, Mzungu and Pearce? What about Danger wanting to play with Lonergan and Mackie? Or Beams with Staker and Merrett?
Just because an older player isn't a star, doesn't mean they don't have an important role to play in the team. Of course no recruit is gonna focus on role players like that - it doesnt change the value that they can still offer to the team.
The point of those specific comments are that Treloar, Aish and Howe have come to Collingwood to play with the stars and play with the quality young talent that is developing. If Greenwood and Varcoe as two examples hold their spots through superior form, that's fine. Goldsack, Toovey, sure if they're by position winning their matchups convincingly every week. But ultimately these guys are coming to Collingwood to win, and they're backing our young group of talent to play now and in time win and be the driving force behind winning, and with that is an unspoken expectation that as per 2010 where if the young guys are performing that they'll push out the older guys who aren't dominating.
 

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#93
The point of those specific comments are that Treloar, Aish and Howe have come to Collingwood to play with the stars and play with the quality young talent that is developing. If Greenwood and Varcoe as two examples hold their spots through superior form, that's fine. Goldsack, Toovey, sure if they're by position winning their matchups convincingly every week. But ultimately these guys are coming to Collingwood to win, and they're backing our young group of talent to play now and in time win and be the driving force behind winning, and with that is an unspoken expectation that as per 2010 where if the young guys are performing that they'll push out the older guys who aren't dominating.
That's the correct point yes.
At the end players choose clubs for a variety of reasons one of which is to play in a successful side going places.
In this case, that would be high motivation for Treloar et al.

Granted other reasons like salary or pay, living in home state, dissatisfaction with current team etc are valid but feel,comfortable the driver of our exciting list was very inviting.

Happy new year and Good old Collingwood forever
 

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#94
Folks

Some fine points.
My main contention with the four, Toovey, Goldsack, Maccaffer, Blair is

If ALL four are playing together in the seniors consistently something has gone awry.
I'm quite sure all of them will get games here and there (eg injuries, one or other being in exceptional form, special role here and there) but f they are a regular quartet as seniors then I fear disappointment and will be booking a nice trip in September.

I respect them greatly but I think we need to have others pressing ahead of them.
Toovey, Goldsack and Blair will Round 1. Get over it.
 

Saintly Viewed

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#95
Toovey, Goldsack and Blair will Round 1. Get over it.
I'm neither over it, under it, on the side of it, against it, for it, every which way it.
I have trust in the selection of the team, if they are in so they are in.
My only point as opinion, conjecture, thinking aloud, considering, surmising, proposing is if the four I mentioned are playing regular senior footy together this coming season we will not have progressed.
If we go leaps and bounds ahead of where we are placed currently, so to speak, and the four are in each week, I'm thrilled to have got it wrong.

ps not sure but assuming you are not a selector, so they may be in they may not be in.
And I respect your opinion. Though I prefer mine, biased though I am.
 

Apex36

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#96
Toovey, Goldsack and Blair will Round 1. Get over it.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Blair in particular, will have to significantly outperform some younger, more talented players to be in the round 1 team, and he was already dropped a couple of times last year. He seems to be on the cusp of being pushed out of the 22. As is Toovey. Goldsack probably gets an easier time of it because he is so much more versatile than those two.
 
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#97
I'm with Saintly Viewed. Emotion and "getting over it" has nothing to do with it.

FWIW I think Toovey is easily best 22 and I think that Caff will surprise everybody and force his way into the 22, maybe not round one but definitely by round 22. I'm not as confident with Goldy and Blair but both will do their jobs if needed.

If all four of them play 18 games or more each then we have gone backwards.
 
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Black_White

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#98
Crunch time for Cox.
I would give him 5 consecutive games in the seniors, sometime post round 5.
Best to pick those 5 games that have the weakest ruck/forward combos.
This isn't a Premiership year, so we can see if this madness, eerrrr I mean experiment, will ever work.
Ball should be in his court.
 

AmellyPies

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Crunch time for Cox.
I would give him 5 consecutive games in the seniors, sometime post round 5.
Best to pick those 5 games that have the weakest ruck/forward combos.
This isn't a Premiership year, so we can see if this madness, eerrrr I mean experiment, will ever work.
Ball should be in his court.
Stupid comment.
 
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