Bluemour Discussion Thread VII (cont. in pt VIII)

[Red Bull]

You are missing the point completely

Gibbs will not be part of our next flag, until you accept that, no replacement for him will be good enough for you. Never once have I said Atkins is a better footballer, but I would trade Gibbs for a 1st and Atkins in a heartbeat. Or would you rather Gibbs dies a slow football death, while complaining that the rebuild has stagnated?

Would be interested to know what you think is fair value for a guy that will be 29 at the start of next year ?

Taking all things into account as they stand at the moment id be putting to Adelaide :
Pick 10 (or 12 if you can extract it from Brisbane) and a 2017 or 2018 2nd rounder .
The second rounder or our pick 39 passed to GWS for Kennedy .
3 and 10 or 12 taken to the draft .

 

[F_therest]

You are missing the point completely

Gibbs will not be part of our next flag, until you accept that, no replacement for him will be good enough for you. Never once have I said Atkins is a better footballer, but I would trade Gibbs for a 1st and Atkins in a heartbeat. Or would you rather Gibbs dies a slow football death, while complaining that the rebuild has stagnated?

Would be interested to know what you think is fair value for a guy that will be 29 at the start of next year ?

Well by showing me some stats you were trying to say that Atkins and Gibbs were about the same at the same age...

This has nothing to do with whether Gibbs will be in our next flag or not or if i can accept that fact and everything to do with simply not wanting Atkins since he's not a very good player, especially in finals.

We should just push for a few draft picks, hopefully including one that we can on-trade.

 

[F_therest]

If we get Atkins does that mean Boekhurst gets dropped from the whipping boy stakes and Atkins goes straight in?

Currently I only have Kerridge on the list after boeks strong finish, Jones becoming super human and Jaksch getting delisted.

Buckley and Graham may be retained just to fill it out.

Yeah he'd best 22 for us, doesn't mean we should include him in a deal for one of our best players in Gibbs.

Most of the negative comments revolve around the fact that he goes missing when the going gets tough...eg in tough finals games.
We want to be playing finals in the next few years where that will become an issue...if we pick him up on the cheap that's fine, but not as a major part of a Gibbs deal.

IMO we'd be better off say pushing for Adelaide to give us 16 and 19 with us giving a third back with Gibbs...or 10 plus a second rounder. Both are better than the initially mentioned 16 plus Atkins.

 

[Jesse Deluxe]

Can't believe all the worry about not completing trades in the first week. It is great the club has not leaked strategy. There is no need to cry over missing out on Devon Smith. He has as much downside as upside due to injury. Rockliff was never going to come to us with Port Adelaide's premiership window apparantly open. If Carlton end next week with Kennedy and Pick 3 the trade period has been a pass....I am sure there will be other surprises

The glass is half filled?

 

[Thehurdle]

TBH - if ADE were to proffer a pick that was acceptable to GWS for Kennedy and friends, plus a player of the ilk of Atkins, I’d bite, very quickly. That’s two good young players plus extra cheese and mustard for Gibbs.

One way to do it, (albeit Schache rather than Atkins) assuming ADE take pick 18 for Cameron:

In: Kennedy, Schache
Out: Gibbs

Gibbs + 26 > ADE (retain pick 10, exchange 16 and 18 for Gibbs and 26 - equivalent to pick 13)
Kennedy + 16 + 64 > CAR
18 > GWS (upgrade from 26 to 18, throw in 64)

Schache + 42 > CAR
16 > BRI (get first rounder for Schache, more than anyone offering)


CAR picks - 3, 39, 42, 57, 64

 

[SBYM]

I wanna start a twitter account called the Tradey Lady and just talk rubbish about trades and see what happens

Obligation free quotes?

Need a bench top dishwasher installed. New trap and some plumbing required. Happy to provide tea/coffee and bikkies.

 

[SBYM]

Something I just heard from a Melbourne based contact. Ange Postecoglou to quit the socceroos and become Carlton CEO.
Meh.

Must live in Camberwell because I was next to him in traffic one morning on Burke Rd. He was dropping his kid at school.

We did not make eye contact.

 

[SBYM]

If so, who's your mate on the right??

I am a little upset by this question.

1. Get a copy of '95 PF and GF.
2. Watch.
3. Repeat 2 ad infinitum.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Because he is...barely gets any of his own ball.

Adelaide dominated many games this year, scoring well over 120 points in quite a lot of games and destroying the opposition by 10+ goals.
In those games Atkins did well since he was given lots of easy ball and yes, he is then quite damaging.

But Adelaide fans will tell you as soon as the going gets tough and he isn't just gifted the ball on a silver plate by a teammate he is useless.

Could say that about the whole team, they have a lot of talent but went missing when it counted.
Players always look good in strong teams however the diamonds are found in sides that struggle

 

[GapInIkonPark]

If I were crows, there is no way i'm giving more than pick 16 period for a 29 yr old. That would be poor list management.

If Adelaide thinks they are a Bryce Gibbs away from a premiership then they should go for it and pony up. Betts, Jacobs and others won’t have much more left.

He is contracted for two more years.

He is durable and could well play a further 2-3 years.

 

[Soapy V]

Atkins is walk up best 22 in a minor premier and grand finalist team, yet we're arguing whether or not he's good enough for a 16th placed Carlton team that lacks decent runners?

Doesn't work that way. Lot of very poor players have played in flags. I still don't understand how Jenkins gets a game or would in any side.

 

[Benaly28]

Do we need/want schache?

 

[GapInIkonPark]

I have thought along that Gibbs / Carlton / Adealaide arevsaying all the right things to keep media intensity off the Gibbs trade. I think the trade will happen.

SOS I think wants a satisfactory bargaining chip for Kennedy, a better bunch of draft picks and to keep or add to the 2018 picks. The better bunch of picks will mean he can replace more of our bottom few this year rather than wait until next year.

So, my guess is as follows:

Out: Gibbs, 2018 third round pick
In: Adelaide’s pick 16 and Brisbane’s Pick 18 (obtained by Adelaide from Cameron trade), Adelaide’s 2018 second round pick

Out: Picks 3 and 16
In: Picks 7 and 8 (St Kilda)

Out: 39, Adelaide’s 2018 second round pick
In: Kennedy, GWS’ 2018 fourth round pick

Out: Boekhorst, Pick 76
In: Pick 56 (Fremantle)

Out: Picks 56 and 57
In: Pick 43 (Hawthorn)

Go to draft with Picks 7, 8, 18, 43 and 94

Delist: Palmer

Consider Lang, Miles and others / delisted free agents and replace Buckley, Graham and White.

 

[ArseClown]

Do we need/want schache?

We don’t need him but should look at him if the price is right IMO.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Arr0w]

We can't unfortunately, as much as I want Saad.

Atkins is a very good regular season player, I'd have him on our list undoubtedly. He'll struggle in high pressure situations where things aren't necessarily going the team's way.

On Atkins...I haven't seen him show up much but then I've only watched him 3/4 times. Have you had an eye out for him Arrow? I'm always worried about a player in a side surrounded by incredible quality. I rate Laird and Lever so high that it seemed others played well around them (Brown/Smith).

I just don't know enough about him so might prefer a pick instead of Atkins.

Taking all things into account as they stand at the moment id be putting to Adelaide :
Pick 10 (or 12 if you can extract it from Brisbane) and a 2017 or 2018 2nd rounder .
The second rounder or our pick 39 passed to GWS for Kennedy .
3 and 10 or 12 taken to the draft .

Well by showing me some stats you were trying to say that Atkins and Gibbs were about the same at the same age...

This has nothing to do with whether Gibbs will be in our next flag or not or if i can accept that fact and everything to do with simply not wanting Atkins since he's not a very good player, especially in finals. We should just push for a few draft picks, hopefully including one that we can on-trade.

If people are judging Atkins, purely on the GF, I would suggest many more of his talented teammates failed miserably on that day. His limited finals appearances prior to that have been more than serviceable, in fact , rating in the best 3rd. Have no issue taking a 1st & 2nd for Gibbs and heading to the draft, although if the best offer from the Crows was a 1st and Atkins, I wouldn't knock it back

On Gibbs, despite other players of his ilk existing, no club will offer up a younger version of him, so unfortunately, it is either picks or picks/players of a slightly lesser quality.

One thing that must happen, if we are to fast track this rebuild, is Gibbs needs to be traded this year. If he remains to see out his contract, he will leave as a UFA and we will get ZERO compensation. I doubt SOS would allow that to take place

 

[therubbernub]

I am no expert. I do watch a lot, have played a shitload and coached a lot so far in my life. That doesn't make me an expert, it makes me an addict.

Trading isn't a science, it is gambling. Example: Pick 2 in the 2015 draft. What we don't know (or most of us don't know) is the quality of the human beings that are up for draft or trade. What are they really like. Their character traits. Studying the human is the art to drafting. Weitering is a rare beast in this regard. We joke about the cyborg element to his personality. He isn't your average bear. He was made for leadership and emotionally up for the challenge. Then there are kids like Stringer who obviously love social elements to their fame to their detriment. It's nearly impossible to guess from an armchair the traits of most of these young men unless they do a Ben Cousins.

I believe that SOS and the other list managers won't chase Shache because he lacks the competitive edge to be successful in the AFL. Some may think they might be able to turn him around. Others don't.

With Atkins, I see a drive like Simmo where he trusts his instincts and will have a crack at the 50/50 and even the 20/80. You make mistakes when you play like that but every team needs that kind of calculated risk taking to be successful.

I reckon SOS is very good at gauging this kind of character trait. I trust him to find strong human beings to further improve the quality of our list this trade season and in the draft.

TA

All excellent points Tommy. There is however an element sneaking into our game that will trip up even the best laid plans. Its the player manager who professionally grooms his players . The art of the psych interview, the art of media training. All these things muddy the waters when it comes to a realistic assessment of the players character. Just like we dont really know the real person behind a lot of entertainers , we can never really know the footballer until it is too late. There are certain characteristics that are being heavily disguised by the player managers through training and rehearsing. They know the triggers that get the recruiters wary and tell their players to try to eliminate that aspect from their interviews. The recruiters can only spend a relatively brief amount of time with the draftees for fear of tipping their hand to other recruiters.
Recruiting is still a bit of a cottage industry and so far the player managers are out in the lead in terms of tactics and professionalism. They can run rings around the recruiters in preparing their players versus the recruiters attempts to gain insights.

 

[1981]

NO.

 

[Sheephead]

Word is that we have this week spoken to Saints about trading 3 Pick. They approached us. They are very keen to move up draft for player - strongly believed to be Rayner. Source - U18 coach

 

[Navara79]

Won't happen

 

[slashin_velvet]

Word is that we have this week spoken to Saints about trading 3 Pick. They approached us. They are very keen to move up draft for player - strongly believed to be Rayner. Source - U18 coach

I reckon we'd be ok with 3 and 39 for 7 & 8. Even though thats not balanced from a points perspective. But can't see it happening until Gibbs and Kennedy are sorted.

 

[1981]

Just gimme a rumour even if it's baloney

 

[Thehurdle]

We don’t need him but should look at him if the price is right IMO.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Depends on the view you take about Charlie rotating through the middle. I can see him being another big bodied mid rotating with Cripps through the forward line as his tank builds. If he does, in 2 years Levi is likely finished, and McKay is still only 21yo. Most big fwds take til 23+ - Hawkins, Daniher etc. Even assuming no injury, McKay is competitive in 2020+. Schache is 16 months older, gives us options and depth, so if the price was right I’d look at it. There has to be a 30% chance he’ll be one of the gun key fwds in a couple of years. You don’t get those opportunities often.

 

[Navara79]

Just gimme a rumour even if it's baloney

Sheephead has plenty of them.

 

[Mezzoculo]

Apples and oranges comes to mind.

Exactly. One is a goalkicking mid (we need) and the other is a running rebounder (we don't need).

 

[Sheephead]

Won't happen

Holster your gun 79, TIFWIW - not saying what the proposed trade is. Just saying Saints are looking to move up. You come up with your own trade scenario. He’s another father I know well, standing here at our kids basketball try-outs, just offering up something he’s heard. Reliable source re TAC cup.