Really?
Not sure if you really mean this or are being sarcastic.
At the end of the day one mans soldier is another mans terrorist and one mans terrorist is another mans soldier.
Opinion Bring Back the Death Penalty
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Not sure if you really mean this or are being sarcastic.
At the end of the day one mans soldier is another mans terrorist and one mans terrorist is another mans soldier.
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Our legal system should not be a vessel of revenge, it should serve to punish those who commit crimes while being as objective as possible, the forms advocated are reactionary and brutal. You bring up a good point though about the legality of war and what is committed, while war is often illegal and cruelty almost always happens, decisions about legality and blame tend to go to the winner rather than those who lose. War in itself is pointless and rarely necessary just because to an extent it is accepted due to the residual feelings of nationalism and militarism does not mean we should accept barbarous acts as a form of punishment for our laws.
I agree fully with what you say. But having said I support the people of the nation I live in when fighting wars - they go the on the orders of their country knowing full well this is higher than normal chance they will die and in the name of our country ...... Whether I agree with premise of the wars these people are sent to fight is another story.
My point in this is that we find it atrocious at my suggestions of maiming as punishinment for horrific and brutal crimes yet war and the damage, pain, etc it causes is viewed much more differently.... Probably not the best example to use...
So I have a question for those people that are pro "intervention", "reason finders" and the like. What punishment would you find fit for the 4 men who wiped out 100 people in Paris today. Take the terrorist view out of the equation and consider them 4 deluded criminals - which they are... I know they died but hypothetically, what would be sufficient punishment? 25 consecutive life sentences? 3 meals a day, socializing with their mates, a chance to recruit more soldiers, do weights??
I'm just curious.
Finally, if I'm offending anyone with my views I apologize if it makes you uncomfortable and I'll end it here.
Our legal system should punish offenders severely. This is my point. The methods i suggest are brutal, yes, but the brurality would be more to serve as a deterrent.... I don't see why victims can be left mangled and destroyed and the offenders get an opportunity to redeem themselves. I can't accept that.... For instance, the rape the other day where the fours men attached the young girl and one of the offenders was granted bail? How is that fair? How is one of the offenders asking to be put in protective custody fair? Why should their rights be honored when the girls weren't?
We live in 2014 wars ravage the earths people, violence is commons in every nation. Yet we always questions the methods of punishment. For me it's a case of you do wrong you suffer. I don't see that prison sentences alone, and generally in conditions better than some people on low income is a great enough deterrent..
You ask a reasonable question, but unfortunately these issues are generally much more complex than that.
Maybe we should be asking about the people who brain wash these guys and use them as pawns. As crazy and barbaric as their actions were we need to understand that they think they are acting in the most honourable way possible. Martyring themselves for their god.
What state must their life have been in or under what conditions are these young guys being brought up that they can be brainwashed to that extent. How indoctrinated have they become that they are willing to blow themselves up?
In these instances it is my belief that the true criminals are the ones who are brainwashing these people and using them for their own purposes. These guys have been so indoctrinated that they don't believe in your laws or my laws. They believe what they are doing is for god and nothing is more important than that.
The people who recruit these guys know exactly what they are doing. They search for people who generally feel powerless who want to feel a sense of belonging. They then start their indoctrination programme on these guys and can manipulate them to do whatever they want them to do. These are the true criminals.
Then of course their is the role of the Western powers in all of this. They are quite often the ones that create the mess which allows this sort of thing to fester, but that is a whole other topic.
I am not sure if you have seen the movie Blood Diamond. But in that movie there is a perfect example of how minds of young people can be twisted. I know that it is a movie but the stuff they portray is based on what actually happens. So who would you consider the true criminal in those situations. The young boys who have been brainwashed to perform barbaric acts or the guys doing the brainwashing.
I understand that you despise violent acts. We all do. But I just think at times you take a bit of a simplistic approach at analysing these acts.
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There is no relationship between capital punishment and a lowered crime rate. It has not been proven to be more effective than the use of softer means, it also affects those who are poorer and less educated significantly as they cannot afford the representation that richer people can afford which allows them to get off on lighter sentencing. As Ottoman has said this view is a bit simplistic in the idea that it doesn't address the actual problems in why these problems occur such as poverty and education, which if targeted can significantly decrease the level at which brutal crimes occur at. They will most likely never disappear and anger is justified as they are abhorrent but again do these methods accomplish anything? Will it help the girl recover if the men have their genitalia cut off, will it bring back those who are murdered if their murderer is murdered?
I agree with everything you write.
Especially the men who take these young impressionable, misguided and generally stupid kids and turn them into human killing weapons.
I take the simplistic view because this world has complicated everything. Every man and his dog has a mental problem, has a history of this of that. People have learned how to manipulate the system to get themselves in as little trouble as possible.
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I can understand your frustration.
Yes sometimes it does seem like we are making excuses for the person committing the offence and that maybe it should be a simple case of people taking responsibility for their own actions. And I am sure that there are many examples of people manipulating the legal system to try to lessen their sentences. But the fact remains that if a person grows up in a poor socio economic environment, or is the victim of abuse or is poorly educated then that person has a much higher probability of committing a crime. So instead of attacking the symptom maybe what we need to do as a society is attack the cause.
it won't help the girl, it may provide her with some solace that that will be something they'll never be able to do again.
Sonething that could lead to a reduction in crime rate would be mental analysis of all individuals. Profiling of you would. Would we as society agree to this? No. It would impinge on our rights.
So we can't test people for traits, we can't punish them severely. So we basically adopt a see how it goes approach and those who suffer, suffer and those who offend will be analysed, rehabilitated and releases back into society where most people do the right thing.....
Don't get me wrong I see the validity in all the points mention by you, ottoman and others. I just don't have the faith in the current system and how it operates.
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Ahh but who brainwashed the brain washers?
I use to be for the death penalty. I know it's not a deterrent but my reasoning was what purpose can some of these people (caught red handed type scenarios) be to society & save money for long time incarceration. People would of course point out it costs more to put someone to death, my response was then we should "make it cheaper".
I now agree as a society we shouldn't have the right to kill killers & yes, the US is a perfect example of too many people being found innocent after execution. A lot of pressure in the US to make "numbers" & fill the bloodlust of voters for D.A's.
That doesn't mean I don't have extreme views (probably still irrational to most
) about how to deal with some of the scum.Anyone who is a repeat offender or has received a sentence/s totalling more than ten years (example, I'll leave the criteria up to smarter people than I) should have a state enforced vasectomy & or with chemical castration. They can still lead lives once they leave prison, if they qualify & at least they're not going to produce another generation of scum.
Breeding should be a privilege not a right & they have forfeited that right.
Society is not once what it was. It's gone from community to not even saying hello to your next door neighbor, from kids playing cricket and footy in the street to hoons driving up the streets so fast you make sure your door is locked so that they don't run over your kids..... I know I'm going off on a tangent but I think it's all linked.
We have huge gaps in wealth, parents both working to make ends meet, teachers that shouldn't be teaching because they struggle to a) teach and b) raise (not their job) kids that the parents who are too busy and tired should be rasing and mounding. Western society has basically, imo, sterilized the family unit. Kids are seen as friends, can't be smacked, can't be disciplined, are medicated at any opportunity, are placed on diversion programs, taught that it's never their fault, taught to compete at all costs... Dog eat dog if you like. People have lost their φιλότιμο, for the want of a better word.
It means and involves honor, respect, care love, a right by your fellow man. Google it there is a good video on the word.
Finding a solution/preventative actions for these deranged individuals is nigh on impossible imo.
I actually believe that some people deserve to die for what they did, however the problem is that if you give Govts that right then they will abuse it and also sometimes the act is brutal but the person is mentally ill. So in effect what it leads to is a state sponsored killing of our mentally ill.Ahh but who brainwashed the brain washers?
I use to be for the death penalty. I know it's not a deterrent but my reasoning was what purpose can some of these people (caught red handed type scenarios) be to society & save money for long time incarceration. People would of course point out it costs more to put someone to death, my response was then we should "make it cheaper".
I now agree as a society we shouldn't have the right to kill killers & yes, the US is a perfect example of too many people being found innocent after execution. A lot of pressure in the US to make "numbers" & fill the bloodlust of voters for D.A's.
That doesn't mean I don't have extreme views (probably still irrational to most
Anyone who is a repeat offender or has received a sentence/s totalling more than ten years (example, I'll leave the criteria up to smarter people than I) should have a state enforced vasectomy & or with chemical castration. They can still lead lives once they leave prison, if they qualify & at least they're not going to produce another generation of scum.
Breeding should be a privilege not a right & they have forfeited that right.
If we give Govts an inch they take a yard. Off topic a bit but the anti terrorism laws in many countries are an example. Sounds fine. "Anti terrorism" Who could possibly be against that? But then what you find is anyone who dissents against the Govt is labelled a terrorist and charged under these laws.
Regardless of the fact that some people may deserve to die we should never give our Govts the right to kill citizens.
As for your last sentence about breeding. You can't help but look at some people who are having children and wonder what good can come of it
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One of the ways someone can get bail is in circumstances where the evidence against them is very not very strong. I'm not familiar with that case but I suspect that that was why bail was granted in that instance (and will be reassessed when the DNA evidence comes back).
As for punitive punishments. A lot of the tough on crime cheer squad fail to think what those policies do. First, there's no clear evidence that harsher penalties deter. Second, locking more people means more prisons means more taxes. Third, it's stating the obvious to say that prisons aren't very nice places which hinder the capacity of criminals to rehabilitate back into the community. They don't call them criminal universities for nothing. You start sending large amounts of young people to prison and inevitably you are created a criminal underclass that is going to have a significant detrimental effect on society down the track.
I am against state sanctioned killing. Everyone is a product of their upbringing and the human mind is often molded by what happens to them as children. The solution to deviance and depravity is not execution. A very interesting show which you can still watch on iview is 'Juvenile Lifers' where people arrested as teenagers are serving life sentences for murders they committed when young. http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/teenage-killers-life-without-parole/ZX9768A001S00#playing
One guy Jacob, who is particularly articulate, killed his mother and step-father at 15 for the horrific abuse he suffered at their hands. Interestingly at 34 he regrets their murder, partly for the effect it had on other people, but also because he has come to understand that his parents had also suffered terrible abuse as children, and they too were a product of their early life experience, just as he was. He understands he has done wrong, and he also understands why his parents abused and mistreated him. 'I had no concept that my action was going to hurt so many people ... my parents were passing down garbage from their past, its a cycle... they had their own issues that fed into it that lessened their culpability ... If I am going to say I deserve another shot because I was screwed up, then I have to have the same empathy for them and what they went through that made them into what they were'.
I don't want the state on my behalf putting to death people who have committed serious crimes. I would rather pay for them to be incarcerated for life, to think about what they have done, and to hopefully come to regret their actions. To suggest that prisoners are getting free meals and board in prison is to ignore the isolation from the world and society that these people endure through loss of freedom. To wish to mutilate criminals by cutting off body parts is simply a barbaric attitude. Do we truly want to copy the more extreme Islamic countries and have public amputations in which citizens gather to watch hands and legs cut off? Or public beheadings such as practiced in Saudi Arabia?
As to the suggestion of feeding substandard food and drink or crowding prisoners into cells together, may I suggest a visit to a Thai prison to those who advocate harsher jail conditions. No matter what crime people have done, I believe that the measure of a society is the way it treats its less fortunate people, and this includes prisoners. Torturing prisoners on a daily basis by mistreating them or creating conditions which allow the strong to oppress the weak is not the kind of system that is going to lead to genuine reform. It dehumanizes people and normalizes harsh behaviour. Why should the state stoop to the same level as the prisoners housed in its institutions? Should it not set the example of what life should be like rather than seeking to emulate the behaviours and attitudes of the criminals that it is seeking to reform?
There are actions in life that are truly sickening. I remember an ISIS prisoner being interviewing saying that by using a blunt knife he stretched out the beheadings of those he executed so that the victim endured over 4 conscious minutes of pain as his head was removed. I don't know what you do with these sort of people. Perhaps some here might suggest that they be executed in similar fashion, but I don't see that this kind of brutality has any role to play in the exercise of justice in a civilized society.
I recall a nun who visited men on death row saying that 'Nobody is as bad as the worst thing they have done in their lives'. My Thai friend in prison for 13 years I knew as a child, and he was a product of abusive parents. Yet he has a soft side to him and a genuine remorse for his crime. His letters and my visits reveal the loneliness, the lack of friendship, the struggle for basic survival that he must endure everyday. Only his wife and I visit him. His father died during his first year in prison, and his mother and siblings do not visit out of shame for his incarceration. More than anything, I am afraid that the brutality he experiences daily in an overly harsh prison system is going to rob him of the more sensitive elements of his character.
Some of the views expressed by people in this thread are frightening. They simply want revenge, and some even advocate revenge that exceeds the harshness of the original crime. A society that does not place value on the sanctity of a human life, that seeks only to eradicate violence with violence, is not one in which I wish to live.
One guy Jacob, who is particularly articulate, killed his mother and step-father at 15 for the horrific abuse he suffered at their hands. Interestingly at 34 he regrets their murder, partly for the effect it had on other people, but also because he has come to understand that his parents had also suffered terrible abuse as children, and they too were a product of their early life experience, just as he was. He understands he has done wrong, and he also understands why his parents abused and mistreated him. 'I had no concept that my action was going to hurt so many people ... my parents were passing down garbage from their past, its a cycle... they had their own issues that fed into it that lessened their culpability ... If I am going to say I deserve another shot because I was screwed up, then I have to have the same empathy for them and what they went through that made them into what they were'.
I don't want the state on my behalf putting to death people who have committed serious crimes. I would rather pay for them to be incarcerated for life, to think about what they have done, and to hopefully come to regret their actions. To suggest that prisoners are getting free meals and board in prison is to ignore the isolation from the world and society that these people endure through loss of freedom. To wish to mutilate criminals by cutting off body parts is simply a barbaric attitude. Do we truly want to copy the more extreme Islamic countries and have public amputations in which citizens gather to watch hands and legs cut off? Or public beheadings such as practiced in Saudi Arabia?
As to the suggestion of feeding substandard food and drink or crowding prisoners into cells together, may I suggest a visit to a Thai prison to those who advocate harsher jail conditions. No matter what crime people have done, I believe that the measure of a society is the way it treats its less fortunate people, and this includes prisoners. Torturing prisoners on a daily basis by mistreating them or creating conditions which allow the strong to oppress the weak is not the kind of system that is going to lead to genuine reform. It dehumanizes people and normalizes harsh behaviour. Why should the state stoop to the same level as the prisoners housed in its institutions? Should it not set the example of what life should be like rather than seeking to emulate the behaviours and attitudes of the criminals that it is seeking to reform?
There are actions in life that are truly sickening. I remember an ISIS prisoner being interviewing saying that by using a blunt knife he stretched out the beheadings of those he executed so that the victim endured over 4 conscious minutes of pain as his head was removed. I don't know what you do with these sort of people. Perhaps some here might suggest that they be executed in similar fashion, but I don't see that this kind of brutality has any role to play in the exercise of justice in a civilized society.
I recall a nun who visited men on death row saying that 'Nobody is as bad as the worst thing they have done in their lives'. My Thai friend in prison for 13 years I knew as a child, and he was a product of abusive parents. Yet he has a soft side to him and a genuine remorse for his crime. His letters and my visits reveal the loneliness, the lack of friendship, the struggle for basic survival that he must endure everyday. Only his wife and I visit him. His father died during his first year in prison, and his mother and siblings do not visit out of shame for his incarceration. More than anything, I am afraid that the brutality he experiences daily in an overly harsh prison system is going to rob him of the more sensitive elements of his character.
Some of the views expressed by people in this thread are frightening. They simply want revenge, and some even advocate revenge that exceeds the harshness of the original crime. A society that does not place value on the sanctity of a human life, that seeks only to eradicate violence with violence, is not one in which I wish to live.
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You ask what punishment would be fitting for the men who wiped out 100 people in France. Can I suggest that as they wore and activated explosives in their suicide vests, capital punishment would be inappropriate and exactly what their desire for martyrdom would require.
As to your comment regarding the reception by fellow posters of your own extreme views, you have as much right to express your point of view as anyone else. I would rather you state your views honestly than cease because you are afraid you might be offending other posters. If I do not know your views, how am I going to know what to say to persuade you to adopt an alternative opinion?
I'm still all for the limb amputation and crime tattoos.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/la...g/news-story/cd6007c0fd24579699259fac28546e6d
once again our untouchable parole board, with the objections of others, allow an animal free.
JB1975
Brownlow Medallist
It isn't surprising that you're still in favour of state-sanctioned disfigurement and dismemberment, and it is your right to express that view. I've never questioned that right.
I will continue to disagree that creating a permanent sub-class of the disfigured and dismembered will somehow prevent them from becoming more animalistic than they've already been. Instead, I think you're simply giving vent to a despair which we all feel in relation to these issues. So be it.
You refer to our 'untouchable' parole board. It has never been untouchable, and it certainly isn't subject to the same separation of judiciary and executive as our judges. The parole board has been the subject of increasing criticism, and the government has again affirmed its intention to reform it.
TradeDraft
Post-Human
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Then how can the Parole Board let some many Criminal/Animals out in the Public?
JB1975
Brownlow Medallist
That's the thing, Dave, the whole point of the parole system is to let offenders out into society. The rules about who gets released and under what circumstances may need tightening, but I suppose it will always be a process fraught with danger. Some animals are determined to be animals.
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JB1975
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So Even IF They are Murders,Rapist and/or Pedophile. They should be okay in Society
As far as parole is concerned, there's always going to be an element of risk, but it remains their job to make those judgments as best they can. Tough job, not least because they know that all of those offenders will inevitably be released into society anyway, and that the only question for them to consider is whether a period of parole would help to adjust the offender back into society (as opposed to them being released with no parole later on).
The Parole Board can't detain people indefinitely. If that's what you're after then you need to look at sentencing instead.
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TD, parole is really important because it's a way to monitor criminals once they've been released. For example, conditions can be put on crims to make them report to certain authorities, not drink alcohol, curfew, or to attend education programs. They also face going straight back to prison to serve out their sentences if they breach parole by reoffending.So Even IF They are Murders,Rapist and/or Pedophile. They should be okay in Society
Without parole you've got no control over what crims do on release which is pretty dangerous, especially for classes of criminals who are more likely to reoffend again.
TradeDraft
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Those types are Lucky to get Parole
Your taxes, or at least the taxes of those of us who pay tax, are required to keep criminals in jail. If you want to keep people in jail forever, be prepared to pay the high cost required. If you don't pay tax because you are on a benefit, the ability of the government to pay you a decent benefit will be limited by the money that has to be spent elsewhere in the economy. See below:
'Australia’s prisoners each cost an average of $292 per day, in a system that costs the nation $2.6 billion (after expenses) in 2013-14, new justice data from the Productivity Commission reveals.
The average prisoner costs Australia more than the average Australian’s daily earnings - $160, including weekends, according to Australian Bureau of Statistics earnings data.'
Kynge of Begrem
Norm Smith Medallist
And what do you think that would do for any chance of rehabilitation or gaining future employment and contributing to society?
