Opinion Butcher

[raptalia]

I stopped reading after here. He's 22, you absolute muppet. Get your facts straight before shooting your mouth off.

Butcher will be 23 in two weeks. He will be approaching 24 at the start of 2015 which will be his status if he is retained. I do not insult you so kindly put the personal insults aside. Attack my argument by all means but not me.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Not much, but I think we could still put him up for trade. St Kilda saw something in Barry Brookes that the rest of us did not see so anything is possible. Butcher might make it at another club but on the evidence atm he is going to have to do something special to regain and hold a spot in our AFL side.

If we were offered pick 39 for Butcher I would be tempted as there have been a lot of good players taken around pick 39. I any case if we did a 'trade on' deal involving the 39 pick for Scott Lycett I would do it. All pure fantasy I know but there are possibilities. If Scott Lycett wanted to come home badly enough and it involved trading Butcher I would do it. I see more future for a player like Lycett at Port than I do in Butcher.

Cox is just about cooked. WCE aren't letting Lycett go cheaply.

The excuses have just about run out for Butcher and I repeat that he should be burning the SANFL up but he isn't. Ken Hinkley has been pretty public about expecting more from Butcher and the fact that Butcher is not in the AFL side must surely suggest that Kenny does not feel he is getting what he expects. In fact Ken was pretty candid in some of his comments about Butcher. I suspect that Kenny's patience is wearing thin and the ball is in Butcher's court. The bottom line is that it does not really matter what any of us think the people who count are the Coaches and I cannot believe that they are happy with John Butcher's form.

Okay, so you've told us lots of times that you think we should trade Butcher, but you haven't made any comment on what that would do to our list balance.

We currently have 5 KPFs (if you count Westhoff, i'd prefer that we didn't have to).

2 play every week.

1 is consistently our best KPF at SANFL level and has played 20 odd AFL games, so he has at least some exposure.

1 is a year younger, hasn't played an AFL game, and has shown nothing at SANFL level to suggest he's ready for AFL level football yet

1 is a first year player, looks promising but doesn't have the tank or the nous to stay involved in a contest, and despite the excitement surrounding him, is outperformed by the player you want to trade almost every week.

What happens next year when Schulz or Westhoff get injured? Do we play Shaw or Harvey? They aren't ready. Is pick 39 worth more than having a KPF who can come in and do a job? We're currently in a premiership window, do you think that we should be going into a season with only 2 KPFs with any recognised ability at AFL level?

You might want to argue that we can trade in a KPF, but can we? What are we going to get? No other club would be willing to trade away an effective KPF or a promising one unless we dramatically overpay. No draftee KPF will be ready to go round 1. So we either go to the best of the state league KPFs (lolle, we're trading one of them away under this scenario anyway) or we take a guy who another club is willing to discard.

For every Jay Schulz there are 20 Luke McGuanes. We're not going to be able to get a good one.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Butcher will be 23 in two weeks. He will be approaching 24 at the start of 2015 which will be his status if he is retained. I do not insult you so kindly put the personal insults aside. Attack my argument by all means but not me.

Jay Schulz was 25 when he was traded for Mitch Farmer and pick 74. Even then, he didn't play consistent football for us straight away.

Justin Westhoff faced constant calls for his delisting until 2013, when he was 26. Even then, he had a 5 game stretch before the Melbourne game where he did not kick a single goal.

 

[raptalia]

They are your opinions and you are entitled to have them. I disagree with about 90% of what you say though.

Personally the last thing I'd be doing is giving up on a 22yo -> 23yo KPF that is just starting to get confidence in his body for the princely some of a packet of chips. If you would trade out Butcher for 39 or some such pick and then value Lycett for around the same mark, I'd suggest we keep Butcher and use our 2nd rounder for Lycett and have BOTH on our list.

There is no point trading out one potential KPF for another one. Lets get rid of the list clogging mids/defenders/small fwds and load up on KPFs. Not swap one for another.

Fair enough, I am not suggesting that we would give Butcher away for nothing and Butcher has twelve months on his contract anyway so he would only go if he wanted to go. You never really know with trades though and I have no argument re both Lycett and Butcher on the list but I see getting a player like Lycett as a priority over keeping Butcher.

I also agree with the need to move those smaller list fillers on but they will have no currency whereas Butcher has, but only for the right target and for a limited time. If we do not get our target we retain Butcher. We are on the cusp of a Premiership and we can achieve that if we target the players we want but they will come at a price.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I see getting a player like Lycett as a priority over keeping Butcher.

Why?

Lycett is 1 year younger, has played less games and has shown less. Both play in positions where we have very little depth. Solid KPFs are much more difficult to find than solid Ruckmen.

What the hell has Lycett done to be worth making a priority? Seriously, if Lycett had done the same stuff for us as he has for West Coast, every man and his dog would be on here calling for his trading/delisting just like they are with Butcher.

 

[The Smaller Warrior]

You guys are the most up and down bunch of twats about Butcher.

Butcher is a better player than Lycett, Butcher will continue to be a better player than Lycett, and though both may be on our list next year, suggesting getting Lycett is a priority over keeping Butch is ridiculous.

Butcher has improved over last year, and honestly, the only thing wrong with his game is his set shot. He is attacking the ball better, he is taking the game on better, he is marking better, his ground levels are still excellent, all round he is a better player.

His set shot is obviously a huge concern, but I honestly think that is something that will only come good with continued confidence in his process. It is 100% a mind thing, and with supporters continuing this up and down bullshit every two weeks and his own supporters even jeering him up when he has a 'simple' shot for goal there really is no wonder what so ever. It's AFL Football, its tough, but far out, understand that he is still a young kid who is still very young for someone in his position.

Personally, I am incredibly excited to see how Butcher can develop himself over the next few seasons and cannot wait to see him be consistently in the AFL Team.

 

[Stewies Power]

We should get that rugby dude from Sydney who fixed Tredders' kicking to come here in the pre-season to help out Butch.

 

[Port 2004]

We should get that rugby dude from Sydney who fixed Tredders' kicking to come here in the pre-season to help out Butch.

I was thinking the same thing myself recently. Ben Perkins is the fellows name.

 

[Tibbs]

A

You guys are the most up and down bunch of twats about Butcher.

Butcher is a better player than Lycett, Butcher will continue to be a better player than Lycett, and though both may be on our list next year, suggesting getting Lycett is a priority over keeping Butch is ridiculous.

Butcher has improved over last year, and honestly, the only thing wrong with his game is his set shot. He is attacking the ball better, he is taking the game on better, he is marking better, his ground levels are still excellent, all round he is a better player.

His set shot is obviously a huge concern, but I honestly think that is something that will only come good with continued confidence in his process. It is 100% a mind thing, and with supporters continuing this up and down bullshit every two weeks and his own supporters even jeering him up when he has a 'simple' shot for goal there really is no wonder what so ever. It's AFL Football, its tough, but far out, understand that he is still a young kid who is still very young for someone in his position.

Personally, I am incredibly excited to see how Butcher can develop himself over the next few seasons and cannot wait to see him be consistently in the AFL Team.

In all his years at Port, Butcher still yet hasn't had one FULL pre-season. He hasn't had a fair chance yet to show his wares. All the postulating and hysteria on this board is just crapola! He MUST be kept on the list! He plays a major role for us in the Maggies now, then fter a full year playing with no injuries and getting back confidence, plus a full preseason to come .... My call is that we will see a very different player in 2015.

For goodness sake, leave this ridiculous debate to our coaches!! I trust their judgement fully!!

 

[The Smaller Warrior]

Ben is a good mate of mine, is very interested in coming down to help. Not sure the club is as interested.

 

[Port 2004]

Ben is a good mate of mine, is very interested in coming down to help. Not sure the club is as interested.

Well I think Butch would benefit from his assistance. He is all at sea at the moment and I am convinced that it is physcological as much as anything.

 

[faquito]

Why?

Lycett is 1 year younger, has played less games and has shown less. Both play in positions where we have very little depth. Solid KPFs are much more difficult to find than solid Ruckmen.

What the hell has Lycett done to be worth making a priority? Seriously, if Lycett had done the same stuff for us as he has for West Coast, every man and his dog would be on here calling for his trading/delisting just like they are with Butcher.

I'm on the Get-Lycett train, but I don't understand the whole Lycett for Butcher mentality. It's get Lycett because we only have 2 ruckmen on our senior list, not get lycett to solve our Butcher 'problem'.

I don't think Butcher will ever be our power forward due to his hips and history with back injuries, but I'm happy for him to remain primarily as the 3rd tall forward. I think it'll go like this with our KPF depth.

Schulz ---> Harvey
Westhoff ---> Shaw (with his recent GPS numbers)
Butcher ---> Butcher

I also think Redden and hopefully another draftee will feature somewhere in that mix.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

A wise man once said, if you cant kick, you cant play.

.

 

[PA88]

I'm not at all talking about trades and delistings. He's a tall, he's almost 23, and he's finally stringing games together. Simply put is that people want Butcher in the AFL side because they believe it improves our structure. It may but I cannot imagine a tall that hangs around inside 50m and sprays set shots remaining in a side for 22 weeks plus finals. The media and the AFL world would crucify this young man to no end. The tv criticism was brewing before Butcher was moved back to the sanfl side. In the afl he would be forging a name for himself for the wrong reasons if he played 22 weeks and could not correct that kick enough to ease/stop the ridicule. Spectators and supporters, and media are unforgiving. I don't know how this serves a young tall for his mindset if he's the afl focal point of ridicule. Others believe he has not improved his game at sanfl level but he has, just not in the crucial area of the set-shot. However I am disappointed or peeved when he chooses to snap the ball when quite clearly the norm is to kick a set-shot. In a few years time Schulz will be retired and we'd be filling two spots up forward. We need Butcher to come good with his kick. I cannot disagree with anybody for believing that he won't or can't improve it because it is a fair dinkum concern for a guy we picked at number 8 in the draft. I cannot disagree with anybody that wishes to see him in the afl side now, but in my view it is not to correct our structure only, it is to take more marks in the 50m, spread the load, and kick goals as well. If Butcher was in the afl side why do people think that opposition coaches would not give Schulz and Westhoff as much attention? As opposition coach my attention on Schulz and Westhoff would be the same because I'd gamble on Butcher's poor conversion rate.

I hope Butcher does not kick himself out of an afl career at Port.

1954 made sense in the Port v Central thread on Butcher.

 

[PJ Power]

If Butcher developed the way Casboult has for Carlton, I would take that.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

If Butcher developed the way Casboult has for Carlton, I would take that.

That's so serendipitous ... I was going to ask in this thread what people thought about Casboult, not because I want to trade for him, but because Malthouse has continued to persist with him even though he's hardly a world-beater, and tonight against Hawthorn he's kicked 3 goals to half time. One swallow, summer all that but Levi's showing something that could be the foundation for continued improvement.

 

[PJ Power]

Just competes, Ford Fairlane. Never gets out marked. It allows his midfielders to kick the ball long to their forward line. I've been impressed by his workrate.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Just competes, Ford Fairlane. Never gets out marked. It allows his midfielders to kick the ball long to their forward line. I've been impressed by his workrate.

That's what Johnny has to do, keep presenting, keep competing. Like Kenny says keep doing the little things and build them into something big.

 

[drcollossimo]

You guys are the most up and down bunch of twats about Butcher.

Butcher is a better player than Lycett, Butcher will continue to be a better player than Lycett, and though both may be on our list next year, suggesting getting Lycett is a priority over keeping Butch is ridiculous.

Butcher has improved over last year, and honestly, the only thing wrong with his game is his set shot. He is attacking the ball better, he is taking the game on better, he is marking better, his ground levels are still excellent, all round he is a better player.

His set shot is obviously a huge concern, but I honestly think that is something that will only come good with continued confidence in his process. It is 100% a mind thing, and with supporters continuing this up and down bullshit every two weeks and his own supporters even jeering him up when he has a 'simple' shot for goal there really is no wonder what so ever. It's AFL Football, its tough, but far out, understand that he is still a young kid who is still very young for someone in his position.

Personally, I am incredibly excited to see how Butcher can develop himself over the next few seasons and cannot wait to see him be consistently in the AFL Team.

There are always a % of supporters who are dicks and jeer on occasions like that with Butch.. But there are more of us who cheered harder for him when he does kick them on balance I think far more are supportive of him than not

He seems to really love port and he developed that when were completely shit I hope he makes it I really do because of that genuine emotion for the club in this era of free agents and jerk offs (cough Chaplin cough) its far too rare

 

[ozph1870]

A
In all his years at Port, Butcher still yet hasn't had one FULL pre-season. He hasn't had a fair chance yet to show his wares. All the postulating and hysteria on this board is just crapola! He MUST be kept on the list! He plays a major role for us in the Maggies now, then fter a full year playing with no injuries and getting back confidence, plus a full preseason to come .... My call is that we will see a very different player in 2015.

For goodness sake, leave this ridiculous debate to our coaches!! I trust their judgement fully!!

in fairness some have seen him play every game the last 4 years, seriously the level of frustration with him is totally understandable.

 

[ozph1870]

If Butcher developed the way Casboult has for Carlton, I would take that.

casboult is a spud, played ok tonight, but he is a spud, butcher is a much better footballer than him.

 

[ozph1870]

That's so serendipitous ... I was going to ask in this thread what people thought about Casboult, not because I want to trade for him, but because Malthouse has continued to persist with him even though he's hardly a world-beater, and tonight against Hawthorn he's kicked 3 goals to half time. One swallow, summer all that but Levi's showing something that could be the foundation for continued improvement.

 

[WHOME]

I keep hearing from various sources that Butcher's poor kicking for goal is a mental thing. Disagree. He's a mental basket case in front of goals because he has no faith in his ability to kick straight, he is unable to kick straight because his kicking technique is horrible. He could have the mental strength of Steve Waugh and Tiger Woods combined but until he sorts out the mechanics he is going to struggle big time. Amazing that a talented kid such as Butcher can progress through elite junior programs + 3 or so years on an AFL list and still kick like a drunk uncle at the family barbecue in the park.

 

[brad the brain]

A wise man once said, if you cant kick, you cant play.

.

Have foot
foot kick ball
goal.
No good kick?
no goal
game lost.

 

[Peck]

Because he's not doing something that the coaching staff would like him to be doing, and they're willing to sacrifice ideal structure in order to hold him off until they are happy for him to go in.

It might be his set shot accuracy, it might be something else. Nobody knows. But every noise made by the coaching staff indicates that 3 tall forwards is where we want to be

I think playing someone like Wines/Hartlett or any of Monfries/Gray/Wingard up forward and having the extra runner on the bench gives more to the team than John Butcher does right now. I think you know that though.

As I said earlier in the thread I don't think its likely we will see him again this year without a big change (injury or fantastic reserves form from John). However I really doubt we would trade him unless we had to, there is no chance we will delist him this year, and I think he is looking safe for next year as well. It may be that all his fans were right that he just needs another pre-season, but I think we will have to wait till next year to find out.

Of course he might get a random game this year then hold his spot, but I just don't feel we are going to take the chance unless we really have to. Though that is just my opinion..

I must say though, if Saint Kilda offered us pick 6 we would have to take that! IMO his value is like pick 20-30 unless he wants to leave.