Opinion Butcher

[Dylan8]

I must say though, if Saint Kilda offered us pick 6 we would have to take that!

Lurk3r pls, don't even entertain entertaining that idea.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I think playing someone like Wines/Hartlett or any of Monfries/Gray/Wingard up forward and having the extra runner on the bench gives more to the team than John Butcher does right now. I think you know that though.

I totally agree that Wines/Hartlett/Assorted gun footballers offer more to our side at the moment than Butcher.

I don't agree that Jake Neade or Sam Gray do at this stage. That's not a knock on them, Gray especially has filled me with confidence that we can cover small forward injuries reasonably well into the future. But they aren't effective enough to be worth sacrificing ideal structure for IMO.

The most angry i've been about Butcher not being picked is when Neade was picked for the Melbourne game.

As I said earlier in the thread I don't think its likely we will see him again this year without a big change (injury or fantastic reserves form from John). However I really doubt we would trade him unless we had to, there is no chance we will delist him this year, and I think he is looking safe for next year as well. It may be that all his fans were right that he just needs another pre-season, but I think we will have to wait till next year to find out.

Of course he might get a random game this year then hold his spot, but I just don't feel we are going to take the chance unless we really have to. Though that is just my opinion..

I think the chances of both Schulz and Westhoff getting through the rest of the season without missing a week is about 50/50. I figure a game like the St Kilda game was the perfect game to try him if we were just going to give him a run. He'll have to earn his spot back by either fulfilling whatever criteria the coaching staff have set out for him or by being the next in line if we get an injury.

I'd love to hear straight out what the coaches want to see from him, but I imagine he knows and that's all that really matters I guess. He can continue to hit the scoreboard regularly the SANFL and work on his goalkicking technique, and i'll continue to be frustrated because I feel we're selling ourselves down the river by not playing the 3rd tall and simultaneously not ideally developing our KPF bullpen.

I must say though, if Saint Kilda offered us pick 6 we would have to take that! IMO his value is like pick 20-30 unless he wants to leave.

Absolutely if we get a really silly deal for him we'd have to take it, but that goes for every player on our list I guess.

 

[Peck]

I totally agree that Wines/Hartlett/Assorted gun footballers offer more to our side at the moment than Butcher.

I don't agree that Jake Neade or Sam Gray do at this stage. That's not a knock on them, Gray especially has filled me with confidence that we can cover small forward injuries reasonably well into the future. But they aren't effective enough to be worth sacrificing ideal structure for IMO.

The most angry i've been about Butcher not being picked is when Neade was picked for the Melbourne game.

I just meant when they play in the forward line they add more, if Butcher came in you would expect them to spend less time up forward as there wouldn't be someone else to play up the ground. That someone being Neade/S.Gray/Mitchell/Young I think.

Neade and Sam Gray haven't had too much influence unfortunately, and you are quite right to question their selection ahead of Butcher. I think there is a chance Butcher could have done more than them, and we would definitely not have lost had he done less. There is the question of what is more beneficial to John's development between playing in the AFL or SANFL as well, but I definitely agree with you that the benefit of structure would have outweighed Neade/Gray's performance.

I think the chances of both Schulz and Westhoff getting through the rest of the season without missing a week is about 50/50. I figure a game like the St Kilda game was the perfect game to try him if we were just going to give him a run. He'll have to earn his spot back by either fulfilling whatever criteria the coaching staff have set out for him or by being the next in line if we get an injury.

I'd love to hear straight out what the coaches want to see from him, but I imagine he knows and that's all that really matters I guess. He can continue to hit the scoreboard regularly the SANFL and work on his goalkicking technique, and i'll continue to be frustrated because I feel we're selling ourselves down the river by not playing the 3rd tall and simultaneously not ideally developing our KPF bullpen.

Personally I thought he looked lazy (looked, not was) so I feel he needs more fitness and consistent effort. That is really just from his two AFL games this year, and I wasn't exactly watching him much, nor am I an expert. That is my best guess though, that he needs to be in the game for longer, and improve his second/third efforts. I doubt very strongly that his set shot is a big reason, but it certainly wouldn't help his case.

 

[Turiyasangitananda]

I just meant when they play in the forward line they add more, if Butcher came in you would expect them to spend less time up forward as there wouldn't be someone else to play up the ground. That someone being Neade/S.Gray/Mitchell/Young I think.

Neade and Sam Gray haven't had too much influence unfortunately, and you are quite right to question their selection ahead of Butcher. I think there is a chance Butcher could have done more than them, and we would definitely not have lost had he done less. There is the question of what is more beneficial to John's development between playing in the AFL or SANFL as well, but I definitely agree with you that the benefit of structure would have outweighed Neade/Gray's performance.


Personally I thought he looked lazy (looked, not was) so I feel he needs more fitness and consistent effort. That is really just from his two AFL games this year, and I wasn't exactly watching him much, nor am I an expert. That is my best guess though, that he needs to be in the game for longer, and improve his second/third efforts. I doubt very strongly that his set shot is a big reason, but it certainly wouldn't help his case.

Westhoof is a potential 5 goal, 20+ possession player with butch in the team. Haven't seen Westy have those kind of games since Butch has been out iirc.

If only he could sort that kicking out (obviously!). Whilst he's better in other aspects this season, it often looks like he's reluctant to contest out of fear of stuffing up the kick. That's scary in terms of his potential output and subsequent development.

 

[Power Raid]

The reality is Butcher is probably the only guy in our squad with the capability of replacing westhoff's role. Why would we get rid of a player with that rare attribute, especially when Westhoff is no spring chicken?

worse comes to worse he could become a mobile CHB or a second ruck who rotates through the KPP spots.


That said, I am a believer and he will succeed as a KPF.

 

[Jumbo]

Definately should hang on to Butch for a bit longer yet, he has all of the tools but we just need to find a way to unlock the currently seized kicking chromosome that he has and he'll be very handy.

 

[Tibbs]

I totally agree that Wines/Hartlett/Assorted gun footballers offer more to our side at the moment than Butcher.

I don't agree that Jake Neade or Sam Gray do at this stage. That's not a knock on them, Gray especially has filled me with confidence that we can cover small forward injuries reasonably well into the future. But they aren't effective enough to be worth sacrificing ideal structure for IMO.

The most angry i've been about Butcher not being picked is when Neade was picked for the Melbourne game.



I think the chances of both Schulz and Westhoff getting through the rest of the season without missing a week is about 50/50. I figure a game like the St Kilda game was the perfect game to try him if we were just going to give him a run. He'll have to earn his spot back by either fulfilling whatever criteria the coaching staff have set out for him or by being the next in line if we get an injury.

I'd love to hear straight out what the coaches want to see from him, but I imagine he knows and that's all that really matters I guess. He can continue to hit the scoreboard regularly the SANFL and work on his goalkicking technique, and i'll continue to be frustrated because I feel we're selling ourselves down the river by not playing the 3rd tall and simultaneously not ideally developing our KPF bullpen.



Absolutely if we get a really silly deal for him we'd have to take it, but that goes for every player on our list I guess.

I too am dying to see Butcher make it in the Power side .... But, playing one game in Alice would not have overly helped him get ready for the role IMO. The more games he gets in the SANFL the better off he is. If he comes back too early and has a shocker, he will be set back to square one! No pressure for the Maggies, get match fit, get form ... His time will come, and he will be ready!

 

[El_Scorcho]

I too am dying to see Butcher make it in the Power side .... But, playing one game in Alice would not have overly helped him get ready for the role IMO. The more games he gets in the SANFL the better off he is. If he comes back too early and has a shocker, he will be set back to square one! No pressure for the Maggies, get match fit, get form ... His time will come, and he will be ready!

This, my friend, is the one argument for Butcher staying in the SANFL that I can begrudgingly accept. He's obviously a confidence player and the coaching staff want him mentally 100% ready to go before unleashing him again. I can live with that and I imagine that's a bigger part of him not playing than his set shots.

 

[Powerstufff]

That's so serendipitous ... I was going to ask in this thread what people thought about Casboult, not because I want to trade for him, but because Malthouse has continued to persist with him even though he's hardly a world-beater, and tonight against Hawthorn he's kicked 3 goals to half time. One swallow, summer all that but Levi's showing something that could be the foundation for continued improvement.

Casboult was good last night, when Carton were still in it, but even now Butcher has had a few more influential games. It's just that perversely Butch was OK when we were at our worst under Primus but now opportunity beckons he doesn't seem to hear it.

• 4 games, 11 goals in 2011 (6* v Dogs, 4 v Essendon) * edited, initially said 3
  
• 8 games, 11 goals in 2012 (4 in a losing Showdown)
• 8 games, 8 goals in 2013 (3 v St Kilda)
• 3 games, 2 goals in 2014

I don't think Butcher is forced out of contention by Mitch Harvey's promising development, other than the obvious fact that on a given day there might be one spare spot. Harvey looks for now like a potential Tommy Hawkins type of FF and really he may be Schulz's replacement in a couple of years. But a switched-on Butch roving free up the ground has more promise as a Westhoff-type utility for me. I know, hardly an original observation.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Casboult was good last night, when Carton were still in it, but even now Butcher has had a few more influential games. It's just that perversely Butch was OK when we were at our worst under Primus but now opportunity beckons he doesn't seem to hear it.

• 4 games, 11 goals in 2011 (3 v Dogs, 4 v Essendon)
• 8 games, 11 goals in 2012 (4 in a losing Showdown)
• 8 games, 8 goals in 2013 (3 v St Kilda)
• 3 games, 2 goals in 2014

Butch kicked 6 against the Dogs in the 2011 game.

I should have continued my stream of thought in that post because it looks like I'm commenting on Casboult when I was thinking more about giving Butch an extended run even if his form isn't great and see if he comes good.

Anyway there are arguments either way, the next 5 minutes I figure he should earn his spot or when he misses from 10m out I think that would break the team's heart.

I think I'll leave this one to Ken.

 

[Powerstufff]

Butch kicked 6 against the Dogs in the 2011 game. ....

Fixed.

 

[brad the brain]

Butch kicked 6 against the Dogs in the 2011 game.

I should have continued my stream of thought in that post because it looks like I'm commenting on Casboult when I was thinking more about giving Butch an extended run even if his form isn't great and see if he comes good.

Anyway there are arguments either way, the next 5 minutes I figure he should earn his spot or when he misses from 10m out I think that would break the team's heart.

I think I'll leave this one to Ken.

Until he kicks 7,8,9 regularly in the B grade he doesn't warrant a run in the ones.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Until he kicks 7,8,9 regularly in the B grade he doesn't warrant a run in the ones.

In the world according to brad the brain, no forward is ever elevated to the AFL from the SANFL side again.


edit: Actually this could be sarcasm, in which case well played.

 

[brad the brain]

In the world according to brad the brain, no forward is ever elevated to the AFL from the SANFL side again.


edit: Actually this could be sarcasm, in which case well played.

How can Butcher be elevated if he can't kick a goal in the two's? You aren't too smart on your footy mate are you.

 

[El_Scorcho]

How can Butcher be elevated if he can't kick a goal in the two's? You aren't too smart on your footy mate are you.

He's averaging 3 goals a game in the twos.

Taylor Walker, an unquestionable gun at AFL level, kicked 7 goals in the 2 games he played for the Adelaide reserves.

Nobody kicks 7+ goals regularly at SANFL level. Schulz wouldn't.

 

[PepeSilvia]

How can Butcher be elevated if he can't kick a goal in the two's? You aren't too smart on your footy mate are you.

This is funny. You made an extremely uninformed (stupid) comment, and then call someone else "not too smart".

Odd.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

We are screaming out for a Butcher type second KFP and free up the Hoff. It was very evident today we could have used another KFP.

 

[PA88]

That KPF is not necessarily going to be Butcher. Hinkley started Butcher this season on the back of poor trials and a poor 2013 sanfl season. Butcher's played better since his dropping but S Gray and Neade have been selected instead. If Hinkley can lure a better tall forward than Butcher, he'll get him. Hinkley was interested in making a play to lure Jesse White to Port before he began improving at the Swans.

 

[brad the brain]

This is funny. You made an extremely uninformed (stupid) comment, and then call someone else "not too smart".

Odd.

Do you think there might be a reason why Butcher can't get a game? We have been screaming out for a tall marking forward for weeks and he still can't get selected.Are you a Rhodes scholar ?

 

[El_Scorcho]

That KPF is not necessarily going to be Butcher. Hinkley started Butcher this season on the back of poor trials and a poor 2013 sanfl season. Butcher's played better since his dropping but S Gray and Neade have been selected instead. If Hinkley can lure a better tall forward than Butcher, he'll get him. Hinkley was interested in making a play to lure Jesse White to Port before he began improving at the Swans.

Jesse White is 26 years old, has played 80 games and has spent most of those 80 games as a laughably shit player because Sydney understood that you need to put games in to develop talls.

How about we give Butcher another 40 games of faith before we overpay a hack.

Do you think there might be a reason why Butcher can't get a game? We have been screaming out for a tall marking forward for weeks and he still can't get selected.Are you a Rhodes scholar ?

I don't think you need to be a Rhodes Scholar to have noticed that Butcher has been one of the more prolific forwards in the SANFL since being dropped. Whatever they want from him, simply hitting the scoreboard isn't it.

He's also taken the best defender and been the best KPF on the ground in most of the games he's played.

 

[Portmanteau]

Ken has said that we will have a 3 tall set up again sometime this year. Schulz has said he prefers a third tall in the forward line. Just do it.


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[brad the brain]

Ken has said that we will have a 3 tall set up again sometime this year. Schulz has said he prefers a third tall in the forward line. Just do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I guess it can be tried against the doggies?

 

[PA88]

Jesse White is 26 years old, has played 80 games and has spent most of those 80 games as a laughably shit player because Sydney understood that you need to put games in to develop talls.

How about we give Butcher another 40 games of faith before we overpay a hack.



I don't think you need to be a Rhodes Scholar to have noticed that Butcher has been one of the more prolific forwards in the SANFL since being dropped. Whatever they want from him, simply hitting the scoreboard isn't it.

He's also taken the best defender and been the best KPF on the ground in most of the games he's played.

Re - Jesse White ... Hinkley admitted to targetting Jesse White as a recruit for 2014. Why would Hinkley want him when he's got Butcher in the making? You can call the guy a hack but last year and this year he's been playing afl and kicking goals. The point is that Hinkley looked to bring in the third tall forward from elsewhere.

You say that simply hitting the scoreboard is not what Hinkley wants from Butcher and that he's been in sensational sanfl form, and that we desparately need a third tall forward? What is stopping Butcher from having been picked for afl in the last month?

 

[El_Scorcho]

Re - Jesse White ... Hinkley admitted to targetting Jesse White as a recruit for 2014. Why would Hinkley want him when he's got Butcher in the making? You can call the guy a hack but last year and this year he's been playing afl and kicking goals. The point is that Hinkley looked to bring in the third tall forward from elsewhere.

The reason we were looking to trade for him was cover. If we lose one of Westhoff or Schulz to a long term injury, we're screwed. When you're around the mark, you need depth so that you don't blow the chance a flag because you can't replace a player.

Jesse White has been given 80 AFL games to develop and is 4 years older. What i'm saying is, let's give Butcher the same 80 games before we compare them, where we'll all find that Butcher is the better player.

You say that simply hitting the scoreboard is not what Hinkley wants from Butcher and that he's been in sensational sanfl form, and that we desparately need a third tall forward? What is stopping Butcher from having been picked for afl in the last month?

If I knew that, I wouldn't be here in every thread asking that exact question. He's been in good SANFL form and regularly hitting the scoreboard since being dropped. My guess, as another poster said earlier, is that the coaching team are worried that if they put him in too early, they'll hurt his confidence.

 

[Jumbo]

We are screaming out for a Butcher type second KFP and free up the Hoff. It was very evident today we could have used another KFP.

What a perfect time/opportunity Butch has today to show his wares, he has to start to make his claim.