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Past Cameron Cloke

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Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Bluebear said:
What have you seen to suggest this is even close to being true?

Is there a huge difference in stamina required to play ruck vs a mobile CHF?

His stamina is fine. Yes, he was an undersized ruck........and he will be a handfull as a CHF.:thumbsu:
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Absolutely there is a difference in stamina requirements, KPFs are generally more power athletes, the best rucks endurance (or get by on their size, but we agree he played ruck undersized).

I can't imagine Cloke running around all day with Cox or Blake or Maric, or even Simmonds, Jolly, Charman, Lade or McIntosh at their fittest, those guys cover a lot more yards in a match and do it a lot more easily.

Cloke struggles with that aspect, however I do think he'd do a better job exerting a physical presence, hitting packs and providing powerful bursts forward (or back). For mine he's just not an endurance athlete.

All that said, this is a Carlton board so I won't be a dick and argue with Blues supporters in your space about your players, if we disagree on ruck/KPP endurance/power so be it. And regardless, I like the way Cloke goes about his footy and the effort he puts in, I never doubt his ticker and hope he succeeds whatever position he plays.
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Bluebear said:
Sorry, didn't realise your grasp of English was so poor. Handfull doesn't mean completely dominating and blown out of the water. It means that the player will have to respect him or he will hurt them......hence my comment about the zoning off CHB's.

Cool. Lets pick the Hawks game. This game Cam lead up to the 50 and beyond multiple times, even up towards the HFF......only to have to ball go over his head to the "zoning off" Hodge. Delivery was worse than pathetic. When he was "one out" in the square the ball was never delievered to his advantage...........

If you want to point the finger at someone for that night start with Ratten for not tagging Hodge with Grigg or the like. A mistake repeated in the GF.


Sarcasm? Is that because what you just typed is complete bullshit?
Yet to show he can lead up? You must have missed.......oh nearly every game this year where our number one target coming out of defence was the LEADING Cam Cloke, running up from the CHF often marking on the wing or HBF..............you do know which one he is right?:confused:

Way to miss the point.
Good.....gun..........who gives a shit?
Seriously mate.....what are you on?

Glass, Rutten, Scarlet, Lake, Firrito - all FB's and none of whom would end up on Cloke so to go back to your original point it's hardley worth mentioning their names.

Croad usually takes the best forward which would be Fev.

That leaves you down to Ryder and Fisher. Both of whom would have the better of Cloke in terms of run, but both of whom would need to be careful (as BB sighs due to repeating himself) as they often zone off to be second or third man in, that they don't leave Cloke unattended to run at packs. He can and will take pack marks and mark on the lead, and he can and will kick goals. This is fact. Watch the tapes.

Am I saying Cloke will be the best CHF in the league? No. He will be a handfull for his opponent. That is all.:cool:
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I didnt realise your EGO was so large that you continually need to twist my wording on order to appear clever. "Being a handfull" would probably be closer to "difficult to contain" rather than to be a diversion that stops players zoning off. However he wasnt smart or good enough to stop Hodge both zoning off and running off. Yes delivery wasnt great, but the guy got smashed by a 188cm player probably 10kgs lighter for balls that were there in the air for both to attack.

Please point me to any tape where Cloke plays as a forward and marks on the lead even once in a game......if he has ever done it twice and you can find it that would be a huge bonus ( I would surely concede you are correct if you can find such a game). I will wait for your direction on that issue. I wouldnt mind seeing footage of him aplllying good defensive pressure while playing as a fwd, point in that direction too if it exists.

Good ....gun....who gives a shit ?....Simmo.....Juddy......who gives a shit?
See how little difference there is between being good and a gun ?

And Croad will take Fev ?....he didnt last time we played......maybe you know Clarko and he has made plans for next year that he has filled you in on.

If you think stereotyping players in a position is the wat to go you are still living in the 60s man. These days its mostly about match ups if you hadnt picked that up yet ( are you still watching on an old b& W tellie ?)

If you havent seen Glass or any of the other players I mentioned play out at CHB change youre name TO BLIND BEAR....You can keep the BB and it will be far more accurate. Oh....add Dustin Fletcher and our Waite as good players that those CHFs have had to contend with.

Cloke will be a better option than Fisher, but neither are in the top half of the AFL spectrum when talking about tall forwards, let alone CHFs.

If you watch the Port game there you will find the man capable of taking over at CHF in 2-3 years time.

Since Cloke has arrived at Carlton in all the time he has spent up forward he has had 1 good game ( v Bris ) , the rest has been poor whether for a full game or rotating.

If what I typed is bullshit yours is just plain sloppy Diaohrea......TA sighs, hates the smell.
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

THE AISSASSIN said:
I didnt realise your EGO was so large that you continually need to twist my wording on order to appear clever.
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It not about twisting anything. You understood "a handfull" to be much more than what I meant it to be. Sorry. It's called a misunderstanding.
AFAIK there is no international standard for being "a handfull".
Eddie Betts can be a handfull, as can Carrazzo and Kade Simpson. If I said Judd was a handfull for his opponent then I would be IMO understating the impact he is having.

It's just my opinion and interpreatation. :thumbsu:
"Being a handfull" would probably be closer to "difficult to contain" rather than to be a diversion that stops players zoning off. However he wasnt smart or good enough to stop Hodge both zoning off and running off. Yes delivery wasnt great, but the guy got smashed by a 188cm player probably 10kgs lighter for balls that were there in the air for both to attack.
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So if the delivery is crap and his leads aren't honoured the surelyy Hodge just back himself even more to zone off........WTF is Cloke to do?

If the passes hit their mark then its the Hawks that have to react and do something about the matchup. They backed their play and we weren't skillful enough to expose it.
Please point me to any tape where Cloke plays as a forward and marks on the lead even once in a game......if he has ever done it twice and you can find it that would be a huge bonus
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Given that he has played exclusively as a ruck who drifts forward you appear to be on safe ground.

Does that mean he can't do it?

I guess we'll see. From the JK thread I can see you clearly have no love for CC, and without him having any form at CHF both of us are just projecting what may or may not happen.

Whilst playing as a ruck he leads up very well, and when he has played forward he generally pushes quite deep with Fev the lead up option.
Why is this no good? Why does Cam have to be "Riewoldt like" (my words, not yours ;)) in his mobility?

Fev can kick from 55-60m, so why are we looking for another forward to lead into this area? Surely a pack marking brute who patrols around 0-30m ala Rocca would be a better complement to Fev?

I wouldnt mind seeing footage of him aplllying good defensive pressure while playing as a fwd, point in that direction too if it exists.
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So three years ago you wouldn't have been sold on Fev either right?
No tank, poor defensive pressure.........
And Croad will take Fev ?....he didnt last time we played......maybe you know Clarko and he has made plans for next year that he has filled you in on.
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I'll respond to this with your own quote:
your EGO was so large that you continually need to twist my wording on order to appear clever
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:rolleyes:

If you think stereotyping players in a position is the wat to go you are still living in the 60s man. These days its mostly about match ups if you hadnt picked that up yet ( are you still watching on an old b& W tellie ?)

If you havent seen Glass or any of the other players I mentioned play out at CHB change youre name TO BLIND BEAR....You can keep the BB and it will be far more accurate. Oh....add Dustin Fletcher and our Waite as good players that those CHFs have had to contend with.

Cloke will be a better option than Fisher, but neither are in the top half of the AFL spectrum when talking about tall forwards, let alone CHFs.
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.......who are you arguing against now?
Can't be me as I never stated anything even remotely close to this.
If you watch the Port game there you will find the man capable of taking over at CHF in 2-3 years time.
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What.....you mean the young bloke who didn't lead up outside 50 all game? Re-read your pre-requisites for Cam above and see if you can do the same for Kreuzer.;)

I actually agree that Kreuzer will be more suited to the role, but I think you are colouring this to suit yourself at the minute.
Since Cloke has arrived at Carlton in all the time he has spent up forward he has had 1 good game ( v Bris ) , the rest has been poor whether for a full game or rotating.

If what I typed is bullshit yours is just plain sloppy Diaohrea......TA sighs, hates the smell.
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Which full games would they be for you to make this assessment on TA?;)
Might want to get that right before you type sentences such as the last one.:thumbsu:

As for rotating I suggest you look at the win over the Tiges in the middle of last season, and against the Roos at the end of the year. Far from poor as a rotating forward.......but we actually hit him with the footy......funny how much difference that makes.

Amazing how you would be so willing to write off a "just turned" 24 y.o. that has had limited time in his preferred position (yes.....he was recruited as a forward to the Pies.....not a ruck), and that has had one interrupted pre-season after another.

Will he be a world beater? No.

Will he be a handfull (in the "better play on me or we will hurt you" mould).............IMHO yes.

HNY TA.:thumbsu:
 

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Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Bluebear said:
It not about twisting anything. You understood "a handfull" to be much more than what I meant it to be. Sorry. It's called a misunderstanding.
AFAIK there is no international standard for being "a handfull".
Eddie Betts can be a handfull, as can Carrazzo and Kade Simpson. If I said Judd was a handfull for his opponent then I would be IMO understating the impact he is having.

It's just my opinion and interpreatation. :thumbsu:

So if the delivery is crap and his leads aren't honoured the surelyy Hodge just back himself even more to zone off........WTF is Cloke to do?

If the passes hit their mark then its the Hawks that have to react and do something about the matchup. They backed their play and we weren't skillful enough to expose it.

Given that he has played exclusively as a ruck who drifts forward you appear to be on safe ground.

Does that mean he can't do it?

I guess we'll see. From the JK thread I can see you clearly have no love for CC, and without him having any form at CHF both of us are just projecting what may or may not happen.

Whilst playing as a ruck he leads up very well, and when he has played forward he generally pushes quite deep with Fev the lead up option.
Why is this no good? Why does Cam have to be "Riewoldt like" (my words, not yours ;)) in his mobility?

Fev can kick from 55-60m, so why are we looking for another forward to lead into this area? Surely a pack marking brute who patrols around 0-30m ala Rocca would be a better complement to Fev?


So three years ago you wouldn't have been sold on Fev either right?
No tank, poor defensive pressure.........

I'll respond to this with your own quote:

:rolleyes:


.......who are you arguing against now?
Can't be me as I never stated anything even remotely close to this.

What.....you mean the young bloke who didn't lead up outside 50 all game? Re-read your pre-requisites for Cam above and see if you can do the same for Kreuzer.;)

I actually agree that Kreuzer will be more suited to the role, but I think you are colouring this to suit yourself at the minute.

Which full games would they be for you to make this assessment on TA?;)
Might want to get that right before you type sentences such as the last one.:thumbsu:

As for rotating I suggest you look at the win over the Tiges in the middle of last season, and against the Roos at the end of the year. Far from poor as a rotating forward.......but we actually hit him with the footy......funny how much difference that makes.

Amazing how you would be so willing to write off a "just turned" 24 y.o. that has had limited time in his preferred position (yes.....he was recruited as a forward to the Pies.....not a ruck), and that has had one interrupted pre-season after another.

Will he be a world beater? No.

Will he be a handfull (in the "better play on me or we will hurt you" mould).............IMHO yes.

HNY TA.:thumbsu:
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The thread started with you claiming he will be a handful at CHF, now you have him playing 0-30m out where I agree he will be more suited.

Cloke has very little runs on the board in terms of success as a fwd, with 1 good full game, 1 shocker, starting up there several times and being moved away bcoz he he couldnt get into the game, and very limited success in his resting time fwd with the occassional contested mark.

There are a lot of ppl on this board who seem to think he will be able to do what he did against the Lions week in week out. If he could great but its really very unlikely.

I watched half of the Cats loss last night ( we were level until 20 mins into the 2nd) ,and he played fwd much of the 1st half closer to goal than Fev for I very nice mark from which he goaled.

Everyone, myself included loves him for his G & D, but to expect much more than solid contributions in some games, the odd good game and games where he spends a lot of time on the pine is asking a lot from Cam.

Ratts or nobody else knows how well he and the rest of the forward line are going to perform next year.

The one thing that seems clear is that we will be looking to add pace and skill at ground level.

HNY BB and all Carlton ppl
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

I don't see Cam Cloke as a player that will cement a position in the team as we move forward in the future. I'd love him to prove me wrong, but I have doubts about his position on the list beyond this year unless he can improve his game a massive amount.

Too small for the ruck, too slow for CHF.
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Blue Dimension said:
I don't see Cam Cloke as a player that will cement a position in the team as we move forward in the future. I'd love him to prove me wrong, but I have doubts about his position on the list beyond this year unless he can improve his game a massive amount.

Too small for the ruck, too slow for CHF.
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I reckon youre spot on here BD.

If he cant cement a spot as a fwd where does that leave him and what will be his value to the side ?

It mAy be a question of if we promote Sauce as a true ruck option and delist Cloke
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

THE AISSASSIN said:
The thread started with you claiming he will be a handful at CHF, now you have him playing 0-30m out where I agree he will be more suited.
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Fair call.

I guess it comes down to what you expect of a CHF in the modern game and especially at TD. I think the use of the old terms FF, CHF etc have become very dated and barely apply to modern footy. I didn't mean it to be taken so literally.

For mine its more the "dual forward" ala Bradshaw and Browne.

I don't think the modern game, and in particular our game style really suits a traditional CHF, but another forward, capable of leading up, but probably more the stay in the square and around goal type.

I should have said "second forward" rather than CHF, as he won't be able to consistently play the "Richo" or "Riewoldt" style game.........but nor does he need to in our side.
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Bluebear said:
Fair call.

I guess it comes down to what you expect of a CHF in the modern game and especially at TD. I think the use of the old terms FF, CHF etc have become very dated and barely apply to modern footy. I didn't mean it to be taken so literally.

For mine its more the "dual forward" ala Bradshaw and Browne.

I don't think the modern game, and in particular our game style really suits a traditional CHF, but another forward, capable of leading up, but probably more the stay in the square and around goal type.

I should have said "second forward" rather than CHF, as he won't be able to consistently play the "Richo" or "Riewoldt" style game.........but nor does he need to in our side.
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IF he makes the team consistently I see him playing a role similar to A Rocca.
Probably with a better tank but also with less acceleration.
He may actually play from the square with Fev 15 yards in front of him
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

THE AISSASSIN said:
IF he makes the team consistently I see him playing a role similar to A Rocca.
Probably with a better tank but also with less acceleration.
He may actually play from the square with Fev 15 yards in front of him
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Yeah, tend to agree.

I actually thought a couple of years back when Red was starting to struggle with his mobility that Fev could play further out from goal, and even push up into the centre (which on the odd occassion he has done it has been very effective).

Some of Fev's best work in 07 was pushing up to the 50 and leaving space behind him for Fisher and co to work in. He has good passing skills and attacks the ball well......motor is an issue of course.

I think the only challenge to Cloke keeping his spot will be if:
a) Hartlett and or Edwards are fit AND in good form
b) Hampson and/or Kreuzer takes a big step up this year and can play consistently well as backup to Warnock.

Otherwise I see Cloke holding his spot as a forward ahead of those two, and being our "safety" in the ruck if the others aren't quite up to it yet.
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Bluebear said:
What have you seen to suggest this is even close to being true?

Is there a huge difference in stamina required to play ruck vs a mobile CHF?

His stamina is fine. Yes, he was an undersized ruck........and he will be a handfull as a CHF.:thumbsu:
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Just a footnote to this post......to quote Ratten from sports 927 interview:

"When you really look at the running ability of Kreuzer....he ran 11.05 around PP, Cam Cloke runs an 11.15 park, they've got big motors for big fellas and would be in the the top 15 in our club".

"I think Cloke is the one who can kick a bag and take the pressure off Brendan".
;)
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Bluebear said:
Just a footnote to this post......to quote Ratten from sports 927 interview:

"When you really look at the running ability of Kreuzer....he ran 11.05 around PP, Cam Cloke runs an 11.15 park, they've got big motors for big fellas and would be in the the top 15 in our club".;)
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Quote from the same interview

"There was so much heat on Fev throughout the course of the year....have you sort of earmarked anyone else who can stand up and help him out in the forward line?"

Ratten: "It was a bit of a shame Adam Hartlett hurt his knee...in the last session before Christmas...he had to have a month there...he should be right by the end of January. He was really making big steps. He made those steps early last year then hurt his hamstring and lost his confidence...he's one that can really play at CHF. Kicks the ball about 60 metres and can catch the footy."

* BD runs really fast to get away from BB's wrath :p;)
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Blue Dimension said:
Quote from the same interview

"There was so much heat on Fev throughout the course of the year....have you sort of earmarked anyone else who can stand up and help him out in the forward line?"

Ratten: "It was a bit of a shame Adam Hartlett hurt his knee...in the last session before Christmas...he had to have a month there...he should be right by the end of January. He was really making big steps. He made those steps early last year then hurt his hamstring and lost his confidence...he's one that can really play at CHF. Kicks the ball about 60 metres and can catch the footy."

* BD runs really fast to get away from BB's wrath :p;)
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Not at all.........Cam was able to play an entire season last year.......when (sorry.....IF ;)) Hartlett can do the same he will quite rightly assume the mantle of CHF.

How confident are you that Harts will be playing after round 3?
 

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Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Bluebear said:
Not at all.........Cam was able to play an entire season last year.......when (sorry.....IF ;)) Hartlett can do the same he will quite rightly assume the mantle of CHF.

How confident are you that Harts will be playing after round 3?
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In the end i don't mind, as long as someone can stand up and become that forward option that can kick 35-40+ goals for the reason to help fev, whoever that is.

Personally, i feel Hartlett is more likely to have the capabilities to do this. However i do agree that there is a hell of a lot of work that needs to be put in to ensure he stays out on the park.

Cloke had been injury riddled at the Pies, and many may have had the same arguments about him during his earlier years. Him being able to stand up this year was fantastic, and hopefully he can do it again this year and keep toiling away in the navy blue.

I'd be lying if i said i was confident in Harts being out there come the start of the season, but I'd also be lying if i said that that i thought Cloke would be the better option than Hartlett when both are fit.

Hell, wouldn't it be nice though if both came through ;)
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Blue Dimension said:
I'd be lying if i said i was confident in Harts being out there come the start of the season, but I'd also be lying if i said that that i thought Cloke would be the better option than Hartlett when both are fit.

Hell, wouldn't it be nice though if both came through ;)
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I don't think Cloke is the better option when Harts is fit........but Harts has NEVER been fit for longer than 2 months. I hope and pray that he can change this but I doubt it.

Cloke and shoulders......and element of bad luck in it.......Hartlett and hamstrings.....not so much......:thumbsu:
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

the wablues are happy to be the new player sponsor for Cameron Cloke
Have a great year big fella
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

What about his hit on Cousins! :thumbsu: Was pretty off the ball, so hopefully he won't get in trouble for it, but it was ****ing brilliant. Sent a message. Cloke and Fev - our resident hard men :cool:
 

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Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

Cant believe Blues fans give Cam crap. Limitations yes but what he gives you!!!!!!!!
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

he is a foward, no other place to play him where he will be as good as there, all this was shown when he played for the ants!!
he showed how good he can be, but he cant let himself hold himself back
good luck to him whether he is at carlton or port :)
although i cant seem to see him fitting in at port, or with the sanfl :o

i will still love watching him play no matter what gurnsey he is wearing ;)
 
Re: 28. Cameron Cloke

I'm not so sure that Cam will be a 'past player' for too long.

IIRC we have to re-rookie Cloke as a mature-age rookie if no other club takes him in the preseason or rookie draft because he still had 1 year to go on his contract when we delisted him.

Port was seen as his most likely destination but they have all but put a line through his name, according to this article:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/cameron-cloke-out-on-a-limb/story-e6frf9jf-1225809764489

With regards to the PSD, Melbourne (Macdonald), Fremantle (McPhee) and Sydney (Bradshaw) have pretty much made those in brackets a certainty. That leaves Richmond, West Coast and Essendon as Cloke's only possibilities, and I can't see any of them taking him. Essendon would be the only one of them remotely interested and even that's extremely unlikely.

That makes things pretty interesting in the PSD. The GC have the first 5 picks and will be looking for a bit of experience but Harris, Shirley are rumoured to both be heading to the Gold Coast. They may want a forward but it's unlikely.

As it stands I'd say it's far more likely than not that we'll be re-drafting Cloke in the rookie draft.

I don't mind it as he's really not that bad. Sure, he's not a star and he never will be. But he is a big body that has shown he can play up forward and kick some goals. With the departure of Fevola, we are reasonably light up forward in terms of tall targets so I'd be interested to see how Cloke would go as the focal point of the forward line. He tries his guts out so I reckon he'd go OK if given the chance.

I just worry about the relationship between him and the rest of the playing group and coaches if we do re-draft him, given what's gone on.

Very interested to see how this all pans out. Good luck to Cam, regardless of whether he's re-drafted by Carlton or if he's given another opportunity somewhere else. Always admired him for trying his best for the club, even if he doesn't quite have the talent that so many others possess.
 

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