And the hits sound so good. He must have amazing timing.
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Cameron Green
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I thought he was a bonus for Aussies in test matches in the field. He took some difficult clean catches at gully - I think it was gully.
- Sep 15, 2005
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Cameron Green: where's he at?
Glass half full/half empty?
Shouldering arms only to be bowled twice in a few months is a little embarrassing.
Conversely, great to see him finally among the wickets at Test level; his delivery to dismiss a well-set Joe Root was unorthodox and one that maybe only a couple of bowlers in the world could offer up.
Personally I'm content to continue backing the young fella in Steve Waugh-style for a while yet.
Glass half full/half empty?
Shouldering arms only to be bowled twice in a few months is a little embarrassing.
Conversely, great to see him finally among the wickets at Test level; his delivery to dismiss a well-set Joe Root was unorthodox and one that maybe only a couple of bowlers in the world could offer up.
Personally I'm content to continue backing the young fella in Steve Waugh-style for a while yet.
He's a ripper, love how he has gears with his batting and his bowling is spot on.
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The talent is still top shelf. He's done nothing of note yet at test level but it's only five tests.
First test stint should be till the end of this series at a minimum. And I would only be sending him back to shield after the ashes if it's a total disaster series for him. But this is an absolute worst case scenario - i.e
batting ave less than 20 and no more than a few wickets.
Any sort of mid range performance will be worth persisting with, waiting for the break through test match.
But I'm pretty bullish he'll strike some sort of pay dirt this series, and from there we go.
Like many, I've got very high expectations with Green.
- May 20, 2014
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Definitely half full. I mean they recalled Harris to the top 6 so you have to be half full, there are no other options. They just need to back him in for the medium term and then review after about dozen tests. It is a delicate balance as if the performances end up not being there you don't want to go down the MM path of over commitment and destroy his confidence / have the whole of Australia hating him.
Sonny Hayes
Brownlow Medallist
His bowling looks to be improving, his batting is great at shield level and the sample size is just too small to have a go at him for not delivering at test level.
Also worth remembering he almost certainly had a test 100 on offer in Sydney (i think it was Sydney) if he wanted to be selfish and try to chase it last summer.
Big fan of his fielding as well, i am very confident he will make it.
That's a mental issue rather than a technical one. I suspect he was expecting more bounce, which isn't unreasonable in Brisbane. Given his age, and his impressive Shield record, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I wouldn't mind seeing him have a stint in County cricket, to get used to some different pitches and conditions. Hope he doesn't get sucked into playing IPL.
- Jan 13, 2015
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more than happy to stick with green, seeing we gave mitch marsh 32 tests.
i think he is the real deal, even if he becomes a pure bat later on in his career.
he may be handy with upcoming tours on the sub continent and could even allow an attack of something like cummins, green, lyon, agar and swepson if conditions suit.
i think he is the real deal, even if he becomes a pure bat later on in his career.
he may be handy with upcoming tours on the sub continent and could even allow an attack of something like cummins, green, lyon, agar and swepson if conditions suit.
Grand Uncle Horace
Shake down the thunder
Agree. Have watched bits of his Shield knocks (just on streaming) but he impressed me. Like the other tyro in Puc (who we may never sadly see again) he has a great technique, temperament and gears. I am very confident he will make it.
By the way, I could not support Agar getting another Test.
- Jan 13, 2015
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puc is playing grade cricket on the 8th i heard , which is during the 4th test, so he is gone for this summer.
if we can get him right, we have 2 good ones in puc and green.
maybe you can replace agar with a sangha, who had escaped my mind.
Grand Uncle Horace
Shake down the thunder
Great news and yep, Sangha looks to have a lot of potential.
Gethelred
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Look.
I had a bit to say when he chose to leave a straight one on off stump, and I stand by my comments. At that moment, he risked Ollie Robinson (a bowler who is notorious, in the few tests he's played, for getting on a roll and picking up 3-4 wickets in a single spell) going through the rest of the order cheaply, and exposed a debutant in Carey during a patch when the opposition were firing.
I acknowledge that he's only played a few tests and is young to boot, but for all that I hear of his batting talent - and have watching him play a few times in the shield with the bat - I haven't seen any of it batting for Australia. Last year, he got a 50 against India at home, I get it; at the lower level, he plays with more confidence in his technique, more willingness to play strokes and is more relaxed in defense. To this point, he's not been the same bat in the baggy green.
He has plenty of time - and I think he'd have flourished under Lehmann, because Lehmann would've encouraged him to bat aggressively and he has every shot in the book and is unsuited (IMO) to the grinding early game that Langer wants from his bats - but he'd want to find a few runs this summer.
I have no complaints from what I've seen from his bowling. Granted, he took a while to get a wicket, but he's playing test cricket and they've only just begun to trust him with the ball and to bowl longer spells.
I had a bit to say when he chose to leave a straight one on off stump, and I stand by my comments. At that moment, he risked Ollie Robinson (a bowler who is notorious, in the few tests he's played, for getting on a roll and picking up 3-4 wickets in a single spell) going through the rest of the order cheaply, and exposed a debutant in Carey during a patch when the opposition were firing.
I acknowledge that he's only played a few tests and is young to boot, but for all that I hear of his batting talent - and have watching him play a few times in the shield with the bat - I haven't seen any of it batting for Australia. Last year, he got a 50 against India at home, I get it; at the lower level, he plays with more confidence in his technique, more willingness to play strokes and is more relaxed in defense. To this point, he's not been the same bat in the baggy green.
He has plenty of time - and I think he'd have flourished under Lehmann, because Lehmann would've encouraged him to bat aggressively and he has every shot in the book and is unsuited (IMO) to the grinding early game that Langer wants from his bats - but he'd want to find a few runs this summer.
I have no complaints from what I've seen from his bowling. Granted, he took a while to get a wicket, but he's playing test cricket and they've only just begun to trust him with the ball and to bowl longer spells.
Sonny Hayes
Brownlow Medallist
So he has had 8 innings at test level so far with the bat
In those 8 innings he has a 84, 45, 47, 37
He has had 4 starts from 7 innings and like i say that 84 could have been a 100 very easily, India didn't look like troubling him. It is honestly not at all a bad start to a test career
Gethelred
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I don't disagree. If you reread the post you quoted, you'll note that I acknowledged his youth and inexperience.
What I am saying is that, ostensibly, he's being played as a batsman. He's batting at 6. An average of 29 is not an acceptable average for a batsman at test level. He would want to get a few runs this summer, because despite being a useful fifth bowling option he is not being picked to play as a bowler.
It is very much Steve Waugh type of template to back in.
Steve Waugh had long learning phase in Test matches where did not do a lot but we stuck with him and was actually his bowling that was handy early on whilst he learnt how to adjust to Test matches. Was much better at one day matches for first few years with his batting but that 89 tour of England he really started to shine with the bat and by end of career he really was just a batsman, a bloody good one that sometimes bowled but not expected to take wickets. Green going to be a great bat but he going to have lots of downs whilst still learning and need to accept that and at number 6 if he can do that role and bowl a few overs here and there. Bonus wickets will mean we can afford to ride out any batting low points for some time, especially when side winning.
My expectations on career is he simply becomes a gun bat towards end of decade. I do not want him to be expected to have any big bowling load as his batting is just too good to have him split his training between the two. The weird problem is if you bowl balls like he did to dismiss Root, every man and his dog will want you to bowl 15 to 20 overs an innings which I not really want to see such an expectation on someone that should just be seen as a bonus IF he takes wickets.
The expectations for an all rounder are different than they are for a pure batsmen. His numbers are certainly not where I expect they will be in a few years, but it's not quite as simple as him playing as a batsman. His selection in the team is based on more than being a better batting option than the next batsman in line. If he can average 35 with the bat and be a genuine 5th bowling option with the ball over his career, that is absolutely fine for an all rounder batting at six. I expect he'll do much better than that, but the judgment of an all rounder has a few layers to it.
Gethelred
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Again.
He's picked to bat at 6. 6 is the batting position of a batsman. If he was batting at 7 or 8, I would be thoroughly more understanding of your perspective, but he isn't batting at 7 or 8.
If you want to have the conversation about whether we should have an all rounder in the team, I'm more than willing to have it, but unless and until we've had that conversation I am going to operate under the assumption that you clearly accept that no.6 in the order is a batting role. Unless and until we come to an agreement on this, this conversation isn't really a starter.
Here's an idea: unearth a keeper who's indifferent with the gloves who averages 40 odd with the bat at test level, and groom them as the next opener. Then, you could bat Green at 7, and play another bat at 6.
The mind boggles at the possibilities.
There are clearly different elements that make it more complicated than this. Theoretically, would you take player A to bat at 6 who averages 35 with the bat and 32 with the ball or player B who averages 37 with the bat and doesn't bowl? The all rounder role in the team has multiple benefits in terms of wickets/assisting the bowlers to be a black and white case.
The idea that the number six position is picked exclusively based on batting output goes against a long history of all rounders that are picked/successful for their overall contribution to the team.
Regardless, I think Green is worth persisting as a batsman, but the all rounder role clearly requires more analysis than whether or not they are the sixth best batsman.
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Gethelred
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... which has been acknowledged in the post you quote.
Why are you restating things already agreed upon as though they're disputed?
I'd take the latter, because at position 6 I need the runs more than I need the wickets.
I agree. Where I dispute the notion is that an all rounder needs to be more than a holding option or needs to bowl meds or seam.
Darren Lehmann was handy. Mark Waugh was handy. Why do we need another pace bowler, and have failed to develop - for example - Warner's legspin over the course of his career?
Why are we looking for an all rounder ahead of developing the bowling of people who are already in the team, and are already making sufficient runs to hold their role anyway???
Alternatively, the desire to play all rounders ahead of specialists has lead to many a side falling short of runs because they shoehorned an all rounder in when they didn't have the runs, and has resulted in there being a weak fourth bowler that can be exploited due to being in the team for batting.
Cricket's long and historied past has examples of both. Having an example-off produces little of worth.
For I think the third time...
I think Green is worth persisting with as well, but if he is to bat at 6 he needs to average more than 29; ie, he needs to get a few runs this series. I do not think this is such an absurd position to take; why do you?
It is all very well and good to discuss a hypothetical about an all rounder who can produce 35 with the bat and 32 with the ball, but he is doing neither yet. Let's see him get to 35 with the bat, and we can have this discussion again, hmm?
Loads of potential.
After 5 Tests as an all rounder he's taken 3 wickets at 49, and made 236 runs at 29.5. Not overwhelming.
He's 22 and exactly the type of player Australia has been screaming out for since Keith Miller. Australia has never done all-rounders. A genuine Top 7 batter who is also more than a part-timer in the bowling attack. Everyone else has (Botham, Flintoff, Stokes, Kapil, Imran, Sobers, Kallis. Hadlee was more a #8).
We've tried. Smith and Labuschagne we initially picked as bowlers who could bat a bit before they felt like they had to make a call. Steve Waugh was something similar. Watson was shoe-horned as an opener/#3 due to the lack of better alternatives in a weaker team and as result he was an ordinary batsman an dpart-time bowler. Neither skill was good enough to get him in the team on its own, but as he was OK at both he got by.
As a result Green gets 1,000,000 credits and unlimited patience. The Australian period of dominance occurred during a period not needing an all-rounder as we had a wicket-keeper who was among the best batters in the world - aka the all-rounder. No coincidence our dominance plummeted as soon as he retired. If Green makes it we're basically playing 12 players so just let him be.
this is bollocks. He doesn’t score that quickly at shield either. He is an extremely technically solid player who makes runs off bad balls. He isn’t going to smash a run a ball hundred like head just did which is why he should be batting at 5 not 6. He bats at 4 for WA.
The way he bats works exactly how langer would prepare an innings. Play solid early then open up later while punishing the bad balls.
Of the 461 Australia Test cricketers, only 9 have a batting average over 35, a bowling average under 35, having played 10+ Tests, with 20+ wickets and 1000+ runs.
Warwick Armstrong
Charlie Macartney
Jack Gregory
Charlie Kelleway
Keith Miller
Bob Cowper
Doug Walters
Simon Katich
Shane Watson
Warwick Armstrong
Charlie Macartney
Jack Gregory
Charlie Kelleway
Keith Miller
Bob Cowper
Doug Walters
Simon Katich
Shane Watson
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Katich was under used as a spinner i thought. Not sure if he wasnt interested or ponting just didn't use him.
But certainly could have been used more
Gethelred
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I am not talking about scoring speed, for ****'s sake.
Langer's policy for batters who have just walked out is to only play the ball on the stumps for a period of time, unless your name is Steven Smith. You could see it clearly in this test match, when after Harris went out both Warner and Labuschagne played completely defensively, only scoring or playing at balls they perceived as threatening the stumps.
This is not a good approach for some players, like Green, who need the freedom to go for those bad balls. He has every shot in the book, and his size gives him greater reach.
Which brings me back to what I said: I think he would've flourished under Lehmann, who would've encouraged him and was rather laid back, instead of intense and tries to micromananage.
This board could do with more reading, ahead of reading between the lines.
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