Cameron Green

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Carbine Chaos said:
He’s really benefiting from having a bowler as captain. Cummins understands what Green the bowler needs to thrive.
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Yeah I'm surprised we have never had a full-time bowling captain until now. You'd think they'd make better captains on average because they understand the needs of bowlers and tactics to get batsmen out. Captains are needed primarily when fielding. They are seen to be not as smart (but this is probably just a gentlemans game myth) Cummins so far seems pretty switched on and makes the right calls on bowling choices and fielding positions.
 
Forward Press said:
From an espncricinfo article about day 1 of the 5th Ashes test...



He could be one of the world's leading all-rounders and a dependable middle order batsman in the fullness of time. Here's hoping...
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He's already that, averaging 32 with the bat and 15 with the ball over 5 tests this series... Not exactly cheap wickets either, he's snagging top order batsmen.
 

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maelcoluim said:
Yeah I'm surprised we have never had a full-time bowling captain until now. You'd think they'd make better captains on average because they understand the needs of bowlers and tactics to get batsmen out. Captains are needed primarily when fielding. They are seen to be not as smart (but this is probably just a gentlemans game myth) Cummins so far seems pretty switched on and makes the right calls on bowling choices and fielding positions.
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Agreed, batting is more of a selfish game. Captains have less of an influence on it plus it means a batsmen who captains is on 24/7 during a test match. A bowling captain gets a break during the batting innings. Only issue with a bowling captain is their availability, they might miss more games due to workloads/injury compared to a batting captain. I think it's a benefit Steve Smith is the VC because whenever Cummins misses games (ala Adelaide), he can seamlessly fit into the role as he's had prior experience.
 
maelcoluim said:
Yeah I'm surprised we have never had a full-time bowling captain until now. You'd think they'd make better captains on average because they understand the needs of bowlers and tactics to get batsmen out. Captains are needed primarily when fielding. They are seen to be not as smart (but this is probably just a gentlemans game myth) Cummins so far seems pretty switched on and makes the right calls on bowling choices and fielding positions.
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Coz bowlers miss many games with injury
 
Got out in similar way in 2nd innings with ball coming back in. Better bowling attack will target this
 
The thing that’s genuinely exciting that he could get to a point where he’d be picked on either batting or bowling alone, he’s really not that far off given he was initially selected as a batsmen that bowls a bit. If he gets to that point it opens up the entire team and what we can do with it. Stokes is handy but I don’t think he’s ever going to be the type that gets picked on one speciality alone. He’s more your mid 30s average with bat and ball “genuine allrounder”. We have a potential 40+ bat and 25-28 ball average on our hands. Gives you so many options to play horses for courses, whether that’s 2 spinners, extra batsmen, or whatever it may be (providing the boys club approves).
 
Coasters7 said:
The thing that’s genuinely exciting that he could get to a point where he’d be picked on either batting or bowling alone, he’s really not that far off given he was initially selected as a batsmen that bowls a bit. If he gets to that point it opens up the entire team and what we can do with it. Stokes is handy but I don’t think he’s ever going to be the type that gets picked on one speciality alone. He’s more your mid 30s average with bat and ball “genuine allrounder”. We have a potential 40+ bat and 25-28 ball average on our hands. Gives you so many options to play horses for courses, whether that’s 2 spinners, extra batsmen, or whatever it may be (providing the boys club approves).
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let's hope.

we will be frothing at the mouth if he can average 40+/30-.
 
Coasters7 said:
The thing that’s genuinely exciting that he could get to a point where he’d be picked on either batting or bowling alone, he’s really not that far off given he was initially selected as a batsmen that bowls a bit. If he gets to that point it opens up the entire team and what we can do with it. Stokes is handy but I don’t think he’s ever going to be the type that gets picked on one speciality alone. He’s more your mid 30s average with bat and ball “genuine allrounder”. We have a potential 40+ bat and 25-28 ball average on our hands. Gives you so many options to play horses for courses, whether that’s 2 spinners, extra batsmen, or whatever it may be (providing the boys club approves).
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If he does average over 40 with bat & under 30 with ball then he'll be the only player in test cricket history to do so.

Somebody like stokes definitely has potential to play as a batter or bowler. It's the duel roles which limit a player's numbers
 

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Pippen94 said:
If he does average over 40 with bat & under 30 with ball then he'll be the only player in test cricket history to do so.

Somebody like stokes definitely has potential to play as a batter or bowler. It's the duel roles which limit a player's numbers
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Yeah might be tough to get his bowling average that low over a consistent period that doesn’t include bowling to one of the worst batting lineups of all time. Kallis with 55 and 32. Somewhere around a 15 difference would be more than enough. 45 and 30ish maybe?
 
Okay.

I said at the beginning of the series that I thought Green needed runs, despite his fielding and his bowling. I maintain that is absolutely true.

He hasn't gotten quite enough to be secure at 6, because you need to average more than 40 to be considered inside the top 6 bats. But this series is unequivocally a step in the right direction, and he has taken some terrific steps against bowling best designed to exploit his specific technical deficiencies that saw him improve as the series went.

I will be watching keenly how he goes in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and India. If he averages more that 30, look right the * out next summer.
 
Coasters7 said:
The thing that’s genuinely exciting that he could get to a point where he’d be picked on either batting or bowling alone, he’s really not that far off given he was initially selected as a batsmen that bowls a bit. If he gets to that point it opens up the entire team and what we can do with it. Stokes is handy but I don’t think he’s ever going to be the type that gets picked on one speciality alone. He’s more your mid 30s average with bat and ball “genuine allrounder”. We have a potential 40+ bat and 25-28 ball average on our hands. Gives you so many options to play horses for courses, whether that’s 2 spinners, extra batsmen, or whatever it may be (providing the boys club approves).
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At Shield level he was picked as a bowler

Still reckon bowling is his 1-wood

I think his bowling is better than stokes and Kallis

His batting - well it’d take a miracle to match Kallis - I daresay his average will outperform stokes - whether he has the same presence/influence - time will tell
 
Getting some real Andy Flintoff impact vibes about this young man. So excited to see what he develops into. Will be a major weapon for us.


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Pippen94 said:
How many centuries has he hit?! How many times has he scored 400 runs & took 24 wickets in a series?!
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Peak Flintoff was an absolute weapon, but he was nowhere near that good for most of his career.

Before his 2003-05 peak he was just generally ineffective; after his peak he made sporadic contributions, but largely lost that match-winning ability that he had. Injury blunted his pace and effectiveness.
 
Pippen94 said:
How many centuries has he hit?! How many times has he scored 400 runs & took 24 wickets in a series?!
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Green has had about as many truly good test series as Flintoff already.

If Green ends his career with a low 30’s batting average and with a low 30’s bowling average, I think something has gone wrong.
 
The Falcon Strike said:
I think his bowling is better than stokes and Kallis
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As long as he stays healthy he really has the potential to be the best #5 bowler the game has seen. There's been plenty of good #5 bowlers over the years - Garfield Sobers*, Jaques Kallis, Ben Stokes, Shakib Al Hasan and Tony Greig at the top of that list. Shane Watson, Brian McMillan, Warwick Armstrong amongst others coming in behind them. But everyone of those guys settled for an average in excess of 30. There's a long way to go and injuries could still play a huge part, but an average of 25 is well achievable for Green. As good as guys like Stokes or Kallis are with the ball, I would have never considered them a chance to finish their career with a bowling average in that vicinity.

Aubrey Faulkner, Imran Khan and Keith Miller would be considered genuine front line bowlers. * Sobers could probably be considered a front line bowler too given he took the new ball or bowled first change just over half his bowling innings - doesn't invalidate the point above.

When he first got picked for WA most had him pegged as a bowling all rounder but then his batting came on in leaps and bounds at FC level. It will be interesting to see if it happens at test level and if so, how far does it go. Ideally all your top six batsmen average 40+, but if his current level of bowling is maintained 35+ would be more than adequate for Green. His confidence definitely improved at the end of the series - you could see in Hobart he wasn't pushing and prodding at the ball like he was earlier in the series which led to a couple of cheap dismissals.

There's a definite excitement in the air and not much gets a cricket lovers blood pumping like a young guy bursting onto the scene looking like he might be the 40/30 unicorn.
 
Sphynx said:
Green has had about as many truly good test series as Flintoff already.

If Green ends his career with a low 30’s batting average and with a low 30’s bowling average, I think something has gone wrong.
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There are a couple of concerns I do have RE Green:

1) Injury limits his appearances and effectiveness as a bowler, and possibly as a batsman (e.g. Shane Watson becoming overly robotic due to suffering so many injuries in his youth).

2) The Mitch Marsh precedent - granted, Green's FC record is light years ahead of Mitch Marsh's, but there's no doubt in my mind that Mitch should have achieved much more than he did. His 96 in Durban showed that he theoretically had the ability to tough it out in difficult conditions and when fit and used correctly he could be a threat with the ball (The Oval 2019), but ultimately he became our answer to Chris Lewis.

Granted, he was prone to losing concentration and playing lazy shots, and he was slower and shorter than Green, but his Test record makes for depressing reading.
 
DaRick said:
Peak Flintoff was an absolute weapon, but he was nowhere near that good for most of his career.

Before his 2003-05 peak he was just generally ineffective; after his peak he made sporadic contributions, but largely lost that match-winning ability that he had. Injury blunted his pace and effectiveness.
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Saying Green is better now is premature to say the least
 
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