Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft? - Part 2

[Bradkli]

Our list manager Mark McKenzie should be sent packing.

Can’t say this on the Hawthorn board or have an opinion or else you get banned from this site….

We’ve wasted two top 10 picks the last 2 years. Both Ward and Grainger Barrass are no where to be seen. Ward may eventually come good but I see no future in DGB. Seriously, these guys get paid to search for talent, how hard is it to find a skilful player with a top 10 pick?

We have no other talented player coming through, still relying on our older players, Shiels is still getting a game FFS. Aren’t there any kids to get games into? Probably not.

It’s a long empty road ahead, and if I put this on the Hawthorn board Id be called a troll for having a different opinion…..

I feel your pain mate and agree about our board..absolutely laughable at times but your call on ward and dgb is far too premature.

Ward- excellent signs when he started the season. You can see why he was a top 10 pick. Can find the ball and has nice skills. If you watched his vfl game on the weekend you would have seen how good his vision is as well. Unfortunately he suffered a concussion 5 weeks ago in the vfl and missed a lot of footy. Will be back in the senior side this week. He will play 200+ games for us and has strong leadership potential something we currently lack.

Dgb- was touted as a top 3 pick in his draft class. Was a dominant under 18 player and played senior wafl football before being drafted. Yes he has had a terrible development season but key position players in particular defenders take years to develop…you just have to look at Jacob Weitering at Carlton. Dgb will follow a similar path. We just have to be patient.

 

[La Dispute]

Our list manager Mark McKenzie should be sent packing.

Can’t say this on the Hawthorn board or have an opinion or else you get banned from this site….

We’ve wasted two top 10 picks the last 2 years. Both Ward and Grainger Barrass are no where to be seen. Ward may eventually come good but I see no future in DGB. Seriously, these guys get paid to search for talent, how hard is it to find a skilful player with a top 10 pick?

We have no other talented player coming through, still relying on our older players, Shiels is still getting a game FFS. Aren’t there any kids to get games into? Probably not.

It’s a long empty road ahead, and if I put this on the Hawthorn board Id be called a troll for having a different opinion…..

At the same time, you can't write off guys in their 1st and 2nd years.

Both should come good with time, but I always thought DGB was a little overrated in his draft year.

Ward needs to continue getting stronger and working on his outside game, his movement is good though. Knows how to find himself time around the stoppages. McDonald looks to be a good pickup from that draft. Watched him a little bit because I knew Carlton were keen and he has a little bit of (Caleb) Serong about him. Very smart footballer.

Newcombe looks a future A-grader, Lewis is coming good, haven't watched enough Hawthorn games this year but Kositzche looked look a decent prospect last year. Moore is a quality half-forward.

Most of Hawthorn's issues are as a result of a lack of experience, and that has been something the Hawks haven't had to contend with for a couple of decades.

I can see why they tried to trade up to get Perkins in 2020, and then Callaghan in 2021 though. Their midfield needs some more variety and adding some more ball winners isn't the answer. They need some guys with a bit of creativity and who attract multiple players to them because of how perceptively dangerous they are.

 

[La Dispute]

I feel your pain mate and agree about our board..absolutely laughable at times but your call on ward and dgb is far too premature.

Ward- excellent signs when he started the season. You can see why he was a top 10 pick. Can find the ball and has nice skills. If you watched his vfl game on the weekend you would have seen how good his vision is as well. Unfortunately he suffered a concussion 5 weeks ago in the vfl and missed a lot of footy. Will be back in the senior side this week. He will play 200+ games for us and has strong leadership potential something we currently lack.

Dgb- was touted as a top 3 pick in his draft class. Was a dominant under 18 player and played senior wafl football before being drafted. Yes he has had a terrible development season but key position players in particular defenders take years to develop…you just have to look at Jacob Weitering at Carlton. Dgb will follow a similar path. We just have to be patient.

Weitering was a gun from the start, but then stalled when Bolton threw him up forward and when he returned he had no confidence and was playing in a worse team which dented his confidence further.

DGB is more of a pure interceptor ala Darcy Moore, and it takes years to get good at player that role at AFL level, but it's a more linear progression.

 

[Dangerousfield]

I thought 12th to 14th if we were trying. 15th or 16th maybe Mitchell is not so keen to win for a better draft pick.

We play our mids all over the ground. Mitchell and JOM often spend little time in the middle and Nash seems to be thrown around constantly.

We have also had Frost and Sicily playing forward.

We have 3 very winable games coming up. If we get all 3 we probably do finish in 14th.

If we lose after beating Brisbane I would question what games Mitchell is playing.

The game is called tanking LOL

Lots on our board want you to win this week, we want a better pick!

Might be like the Kreuser Cup late in the season way back when, where neither Carlton or Richmond wanted to win!

 

[nelk boys]

Our list manager Mark McKenzie should be sent packing.

Can’t say this on the Hawthorn board or have an opinion or else you get banned from this site….

We’ve wasted two top 10 picks the last 2 years. Both Ward and Grainger Barrass are no where to be seen. Ward may eventually come good but I see no future in DGB. Seriously, these guys get paid to search for talent, how hard is it to find a skilful player with a top 10 pick?

We have no other talented player coming through, still relying on our older players, Shiels is still getting a game FFS. Aren’t there any kids to get games into? Probably not.

It’s a long empty road ahead, and if I put this on the Hawthorn board Id be called a troll for having a different opinion…..

What do you mean by "no other talented player coming through"???

Day, Moore, Newcombe, Scrimshaw, CJ, Lewis, Butler, Mcdonald and Bramble have all grown in waves in the last two years.

You say "I see no future in DGB", without giving any reasoning on this lazy opinion. He's shown great signs for a KPP who was so light when we drafted him, you should look at the carlton game this year to see his growth and potential.

 

[La Dispute]

I actually think one major issue with our midfield is that JOM has been a disappointment. We put a lot of hope in him, but he's come up well short. He bobs up and plays the odd really good game but nowhere near often enough. That guy should be a top 10 midfielder in the league. As it stands, he wouldn't even be in the top 50.

I don't get it with JOM either.

He looked like a future star at the Gold Coast, went to the Hawks and was coming off a severe injury and sustained a few more injuries over the course but he plays enormous matched 3-4 times a year. Why can't he sustain it?

Doesn't lack leg speed, kicking seems to have levelled, has the body strength - although I could be mistaking his bulk for genuine power - can accumulate...

Just seems like most games he is happy going through the motions.

 

[Bradkli]

I don't get it with JOM either.

He looked like a future star at the Gold Coast, went to the Hawks and was coming off a severe injury and sustained a few more injuries over the course but he plays enormous matched 3-4 times a year. Why can't he sustain it?

Doesn't lack leg speed, kicking seems to have levelled, has the body strength - although I could be mistaking his bulk for genuine power - can accumulate...

Just seems like most games he is happy going through the motions.

Unfortunately he never fully recovered from his serious knee injury. Since coming to us he has been a B grade midfielder.

Like you said, has 4/5 excellent games a season then he’s either average or missed games through injury…

The irony is, this season he’s played a much different role rotating between half forward and midfield and it’s been his most consistent and best season for us…

he would have expected to play in big finals for us, which he did in 2018 but he won’t be playing in a finals win or a premiership with us.

Seems like a really popular teammate but in hindsight the trade simply hasn’t worked.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Has what we have seen this season been about what was expected?

From a distance, have unearthed a gem in Newcombe and Lewis has turned corner from last season

I expected a 9-10 win season, then when I saw DGB, Ward, Maginness, MacDonald, Newcombe, Reeves and Nash line up in round 1 accepted Sam's direction and halved that win expectancy. It's been a fun ride too.

Last years best 22 with Sicily and Gunston added is better than a bottom 4 side.

I'm completely fine with playing the kids.

The only frustrating part right now is that DGB, Ward and Finn are playing at Box Hill when they should be playing in the seniors every week.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Our list manager Mark McKenzie should be sent packing.

Can’t say this on the Hawthorn board or have an opinion or else you get banned from this site….

We’ve wasted two top 10 picks the last 2 years. Both Ward and Grainger Barrass are no where to be seen. Ward may eventually come good but I see no future in DGB. Seriously, these guys get paid to search for talent, how hard is it to find a skilful player with a top 10 pick?

We have no other talented player coming through, still relying on our older players, Shiels is still getting a game FFS. Aren’t there any kids to get games into? Probably not.

It’s a long empty road ahead, and if I put this on the Hawthorn board Id be called a troll for having a different opinion…..

This is a next level poor take.

Ward has plenty of talent, if you had any idea and watched A. U18, B. VFL or C. Had any knowledge at all you'd realise this.

Was concussed for more than a month. He performed pretty well early in the year (when he got mid time, obviously this is apart of growth and improvement). He has clear elite traits and a fair amount of them. You can notice it, if you again have an idea.

Mark McKenzie has been a genius with so many selections, MSD the main.

Our last draft was superb, getting a very talented player with our first pick and picking up two gems in the 2nd round, MacDonald looks super and Butler has clear top end talent.

DGB has clear elite traits again, you can see them but you can also see his want to improve and competitiveness, tall key position players take longer.

We don't? anyway, move on from whatever dribble rubbish that is.

The reason players you question aren't playing is either they're A. Injured, B. Not suited or fittable in the side atm, aka you can't have too many kids and you also can't play too many of one type (talls for example, in Jekas case he had a chance to play and got injured for a month.) really unlucky.

Shiels got games to get him to 250 games and send him off as the champ he's been, you still need senior players aswell and you can't just gift games. Gotta be earned.

And you're not a troll, you think this genuinely. But you're just wrong, or you're not seeing it correctly.

Do you watch Under 18 footy? do you watch VFL? do you watch every game?

 

[Dewyyyyy]

ok. Hawthorn are the only team that 'run out of legs'.
However, other games you 'found your legs' coming back in the 2nd half to be competitive on the scoreboard.
So, you ran out of legs against Sydney, but you came charging home against Carlton?? You ran out of legs against Essendon? Aren't they a young side? You seemed to play the game out well against Lions after being 20 points down late in the 3rd.

All clubs can keep finding excuses....errr I mean reasons.

It's not the only club who does, it's just a reason for mainly young sides.

Especially with our constant high pressure and high intensity gameplan (run and gun.)

It's not through not trying, sometimes your legs can go and have a little left, and sometimes you're completely gassed and get run over.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I feel your pain mate and agree about our board..absolutely laughable at times but your call on ward and dgb is far too premature.

Ward- excellent signs when he started the season. You can see why he was a top 10 pick. Can find the ball and has nice skills. If you watched his vfl game on the weekend you would have seen how good his vision is as well. Unfortunately he suffered a concussion 5 weeks ago in the vfl and missed a lot of footy. Will be back in the senior side this week. He will play 200+ games for us and has strong leadership potential something we currently lack.

Dgb- was touted as a top 3 pick in his draft class. Was a dominant under 18 player and played senior wafl football before being drafted. Yes he has had a terrible development season but key position players in particular defenders take years to develop…you just have to look at Jacob Weitering at Carlton. Dgb will follow a similar path. We just have to be patient.

Ward's game on the weekend was the pure definition of why he's so good.

Some players just have genuine football skills, he does. He is super clean and one touch which is one of the key things in football, if you can pick up a football without fumbling, you're off and away most of the time. He's classy user by both hand and foot and reads the game extremely well, his vision is good and not only how good he is at reading the game but how quickly. Has leadership qualities also.

In the bucketing wet, he was just about the only bloke who wasn't fumbling, and it was over 100mm of rain and kicked a goal in the bucketing rain which was an awesome finish.

Again agree on DGB.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Weitering was a gun from the start, but then stalled when Bolton threw him up forward and when he returned he had no confidence and was playing in a worse team which dented his confidence further.

DGB is more of a pure interceptor ala Darcy Moore, and it takes years to get good at player that role at AFL level, but it's a more linear progression.

Weitering had very similar weaknesses early to DGB, tried hard but often out muscled, DGB's issues are he is trying to play the game that'll suit his body in a couple years. When he builds his body he'll be a star.

Also Weitering is a very strong intercept player, DGB is a bit inbetween the two (Moore and Weitering).

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I don't get it with JOM either.

He looked like a future star at the Gold Coast, went to the Hawks and was coming off a severe injury and sustained a few more injuries over the course but he plays enormous matched 3-4 times a year. Why can't he sustain it?

Doesn't lack leg speed, kicking seems to have levelled, has the body strength - although I could be mistaking his bulk for genuine power - can accumulate...

Just seems like most games he is happy going through the motions.

Seems to injure himself sometimes trying to burst away like he use to, watching his old Gold Coast stuff hurts. He was one of the most talented kids i've ever seen. He had an inside outside game and a really good ability forward, good above his head, clean, burst, strength. Bloke was the definition of talented. Looked like a man at 17.

He has body strength, seems alot more upper body than someone like Andrew Brayshaw who holds alot of his stuff in his quads and calves, which are key to explosiveness and running power. Although it's likely Jaeger gets injured if he tries to do that. It wouldn't be good on his knee either.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I expected a 9-10 win season, then when I saw DGB, Ward, Maginness, MacDonald, Newcombe, Reeves and Nash line up in round 1 accepted Sam's direction and halved that win expectancy. It's been a fun ride too.

Last years best 22 with Sicily and Gunston added is better than a bottom 4 side.

I'm completely fine with playing the kids.

The only frustrating part right now is that DGB, Ward and Finn are playing at Box Hill when they should be playing in the seniors every week.

Ward had to, concussion and can't throw him straight in. Get his confidence up and play a high level of footy and hopefully get a nom to finish the year.

 

[Blackhawk42]

No surprise here

Can’t have a different opinion to this lad on this site

Whether anybody agrees with you on that point or not, it doesn't make your opinion any less ridiculous.

You've already written off 2 players in their first and second seasons?

Can you name one key position player who came into the AFL system as an 18 year old and dominated from the beginning? That wasn't already physically blessed with a man's body?

That 2020 draft class has had plenty of struggles for obvious reasons.
I'll share the link and I'd like you to have a good look at it. Literally every player from the top 10 is still not a best 22 player at their club. Many from the next 20 selections haven't even debuted yet.

Patience is required!

2020 AFL draft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[VinnieB]

It's not the only club who does, it's just a reason for mainly young sides.

Especially with our constant high pressure and high intensity gameplan (run and gun.)

It's not through not trying, sometimes your legs can go and have a little left, and sometimes you're completely gassed and get run over.

Not sure I've heard anything so ridiculous.
So what you're saying is that it happens 'sometimes'. Usually when you lose.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Not sure I've heard anything so ridiculous.
So what you're saying is that it happens 'sometimes'. Usually when you lose.

Are you okay? I wish i had an answer, what are you exactly saying? We're just competitive and stop because we want to?

It's what i say it is, it's pretty common, especially among players who aren't as fit (usually younger players) don't have as many pre seasons behind them for example.

But yeah it's ridiculous because you lack the ability to comprehend the simplicity of it.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Won 7 games last season. Look to be tracking a little worse.

Have good forwards and backs, have no mids - as we knew last year.

I think we would have won a couple more games (and looked stronger through the middle) had we given bigger midfield minutes to Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard this season. As it turns out, we have been future focussed and been phasing them out to give new draftees more mid time. I think this is the right decision (even if harsh to the likes of Mitchell who has gone from elite mid to bit part player). I think we are in a better position than last year despite fewer wins given Mitchell, Wingard, etc were the main drivers in our wins.

With that said, we had the same number of wins this time last year and now move into the easier part of the draw so may end up the same anyway but that is no guarantee, especially with our form against low sides.

 

[The 747]

I think we would have won a couple more games (and looked stronger through the middle) had we given bigger midfield minutes to Mitchell, O'Meara and Wingard this season. As it turns out, we have been future focussed and been phasing them out to give new draftees more mid time. I think this is the right decision (even if harsh to the likes of Mitchell who has gone from elite mid to bit part player). I think we are in a better position than last year despite fewer wins given Mitchell, Wingard, etc were the main drivers in our wins.

With that said, we had the same number of wins this time last year and now move into the easier part of the draw so may end up the same anyway but that is no guarantee, especially with our form against low sides.

Fair enough, I don't really pay much attention to who the Hawks play where.

 

[craffles]

I just love people who take the time and effort to post that they don’t care…

I don't care about this either tbh

 

[VinnieB]

Think one of the major issues there are the lack of fitness in our rucks. Max Lynch struggled to run out games as a solo ruck, Ladhams and Draper completely dominated the last quarter of those games

I doubt a ruckman (and a lower level ruckman in the game) who struggles to run out games is the reason the whole team has been over-run on a couple of occasions.

But apart from the excuses, I think the Hawks have obviously got a good team developing.
I think they should actually trade for an A grade midfielder in the mid 20s, and obviously recruit one as well.

I think apart from Newcombe, Macdonald looks really good.
Obviously the players need to keep improving, but Mitchell is obviously doing a fine job and seems to have the players wanting to play for him.

 

[Freomaniac]

Pretty much - young team, competitive but inconsistent.

There are green shoots everywhere. Other than Bruest and Sicily the kids will dominate the B&F voting. But they are still kids.

It is exciting. I actually enjoy watching young teams develop as long as they show something and I think this group is showing a bit which is awesome.

Hows Caleb serongs brother progressing?

A few dockers fans were gutted they didnt get him

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Hows Caleb serongs brother progressing?

A few dockers fans were gutted they didnt get him

Started off fantastically

Got Covid and a injury middle part of season

But has some very nice attributes

 

[SSSSSS]

Hows Caleb serongs brother progressing?

A few dockers fans were gutted they didnt get him

Gunston replacement.

 

[Freomaniac]

Gunston replacement.

is he close to a debut game?