Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[its free real estate]

Without Free Agency, Hawthorn keeps Franklin, Young, Ellis, Suckling, Brown, Murphy. Essentially Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis too.

They don't get Frawley though.

Free Agency has hurt Hawthorn more than any other club. If you believe otherwise, perhaps you listen to "Jonno Brown".

Franklin aside, most of those blokes you could afford to lose.

 

[Scotland]

Is Hawthorn in a better position if those players above don't move via FA? Five of them aren't even playing any more. I think the point was that FA has made it easier for teams to top up. Geelong added Dangerfield (via FA influenced trade), Richmond added Lynch, Sydney added Franklin. Those sort of moves are harder for any club without FA because of the trade demands clubs place on star players. It's also made pre agency a thing with clubs open to trading players after 7 years knowing the FA return might be shizen.

 

[Hawkk]

An excellent and almost forgotten season. I don't think most (neutral) footy fans would know that he was the leading goalkicker in the 2008 GF. But everyone remembers Stuart Dew kicking two in 5 minutes. Shame he (Williams) was never really fit after the age of about 25/26. Mark LeCras followed a similar timeline. High output small forward that readjusted to a half forward role that was more beneficial to the team.

Off topic but can you believe some (bitter) people believe we Bradbury'ed 2008...

That was probably Hawthorn's strongest finals series in at least 30 years

 

[Hawkk]

Is Hawthorn in a better position if those players above don't move via FA? Five of them aren't even playing any more. I think the point was that FA has made it easier for teams to top up. Geelong added Dangerfield (via FA influenced trade), Richmond added Lynch, Sydney added Franklin. Those sort of moves are harder for any club without FA because of the trade demands clubs place on star players. It's also made pre agency a thing with clubs open to trading players after 7 years knowing the FA return might be shizen.

Pretty much this...

That said hindsight is a wonderful thing, but Hawthorn got a seemingly mere pick 19 for Franklin after signing a 9 year contract with Sydney.

3 years earlier Geelong got two first round compensation picks for Gary Ablett under the previous, more favourable restricted free agent compensation rules.

And two years later Melbourne received pick 3 for James Frawley

 

[Scotland]

Off topic but can you believe some (bitter) people believe we Bradbury'ed 2008...

That was probably Hawthorn's strongest finals series in at least 30 years

You did. And you didn't.

Geelong were the best team all year. 21-1 162% and won both finals easily leading into the GF. Hawthorn were the clear #2 side over 22 rounds and had a powerful finals series, then took their chances on GF day. Over a 3 year period Geelong won 18, 21, 18 games and 8/9 finals. Cam Mooney hitting the post from 10m out on half time will haunt them forever. Over the same period Hawthorn won 13, 17, 9 and won 4/5. Overall probably the 5th or 6th best side maybe in that period but the best when it mattered.

 

[Scotland]

Pretty much this...

That said hindsight is a wonderful thing, but Hawthorn got a seemingly mere pick 19 for Franklin after signing a 9 year contract with Sydney.

3 years earlier Geelong got two first round compensation picks for Gary Ablett under the previous, more favourable restricted free agent compensation rules.

And two years later Melbourne received pick 3 for James Frawley

The GC/GWS uncontracted player compo rules were different, but probably fairer. Those picks could be held for future years or used immediately, so if you had a down year like Melbourne or WB you would cash it in, but if you were at the top like Geelong you'd hold off.

We effectively got the same compo for Scott Lycett as Hawthorn got for Franklin's much longer, much more lucrative deal. Silly. Port give him $20k a year less and we probably get pick 40 instead of 20. Silly. I'm not a huge fan of the compo system and I think it could be tweaked, it's insulting that players on $1m+ deals can theoretically be worth pick 1-18. Your 11th highest paid player can do what he wants, your 10th gets RFA status. You can get pick 32 for Luke Dahlhaus 4 x $500k, pick 23 for Scott Lycett 5 x $600k and Andrew Gaff 10 years x $10m or whatever North offer these days would've been pick 22. That just doesn't look right.

But part of the AFL's plan seems to be to not give market value to top sides as an equalisation measure. Which is OK in theory but I think incentivises low finishing teams to move on senior players - like Melbourne with Frawley. If it was simply a matter of clubs trading cap space for players then Melbourne would've tried to keep him and at the least forced a trade, though from memory he was unrestricted anyway.

 

[Gralin]

Not sure, sometimes stars just align. Hard not to get excited about a forward having 200 shots at goal in a year when the alternative is watching teams fumble to 8.13 vs 6.9.

If you watch 2008 Buddy and Rough had entire paddocks of free space to lead into in 2008.
We've not seen forward lines that open that consistently since

 

[Pessimistic]

Off topic but can you believe some (bitter) people believe we Bradbury'ed 2008...

That was probably Hawthorn's strongest finals series in at least 30 years

Anyne noticed bradbury is In the latest ‘survivor’

 

[Pessimistic]

You did. And you didn't.

Geelong were the best team all year. 21-1 162% and won both finals easily leading into the GF. Hawthorn were the clear #2 side over 22 rounds and had a powerful finals series, then took their chances on GF day. Over a 3 year period Geelong won 18, 21, 18 games and 8/9 finals. Cam Mooney hitting the post from 10m out on half time will haunt them forever. Over the same period Hawthorn won 13, 17, 9 and won 4/5. Overall probably the 5th or 6th best side maybe in that period but the best when it mattered.

In many other seasons, hawks would have been a creditable premier, although the player stocks were threadbare outside the 22

But
Hf. Johnson. Mooney. Bartel
Ff chapman Lonergan Stokes

I mean, really? chapman stokes injured. Johnson bartel two goals among them. And the midlfield goals which had sustained them dried up

When I think Mooney Lonergan, im not exactly thinking superstar forward tag team. Most thought lonergon was named there to throw the opponents

Theres where the game was lost

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

There is the small matter that GWS are under massive salary cap pressure

I guess we will see, but I think you are off on that one. My sources within the club have said that our salary cap is in very good shape going forward and shedding Shiel, Scully and not paying Setterfield what he was asking for has made a massive difference.

GWS have already said they won't match a bid for Coniglio

Patton is a future 3rd round pick.

You think we will let one of our best players and an integral player in building our clubs culture go to the Hawks, for a potentially late first round pick? I think you're living in a dream land and there's a lot more to our Chairman's quote than you want to believe.

 

[Timo pez]

Sicily is not a player who can do jobs on guys like Kennedy, Hawkins, Cameron etc.

Frawley is the only good proper key-defender on your list, and he turns 31 in a couple of months.

Has taken a number of key forwards to the cleaners this year ie. Cox a few weeks back. I guess if you look at his height you could make that assumption, but rarely loses 1 v 1's in reality.

 

[MrPremiership]

I guess we will see, but I think you are off on that one. My sources within the club have said that our salary cap is in very good shape going forward and shedding Shiel, Scully and not paying Setterfield what he was asking for has made a massive difference.


You think we will let one of our best players and an integral player in building our clubs culture go to the Hawks, for a potentially late first round pick? I think you're living in a dream land and there's a lot more to our Chairman's quote than you want to believe.

GWS fan(s) said the same thing when it was touted that Scully would go for a future 4th.........

 

[Timo pez]

And yet, in finals, this grouping was found wanting last year. The finals becomes more contested, and, as the game becomes more of an Auskick seconds rolling maul, Clarkson's high marking-kicking possession doesn't work as well in important matches when the pressure increases. I wish it did, the 2013-2015 Hawthorn was a great team to watch. But in 2016 and 2018, that gameplan didn't work and I don't think it will work in 2019 even if you did make the finals.

And what's the point of beating top four teams if you don't end up making finals anyway?

Probably fair to say we were found wanting, but we were punching above our weight last year, given the phase the club is in. Still didn't stop Family Club making top 4. The first final suited the Tigers ugly scrum style, and was actually pretty close in the first half. We peppered the goals and missed some sodas that then went other way for easy Tiger goals, that cost morale. We'd be challenging for top 4 again this year with Tom, and yes, probably would still be found wanting as there are still some holes in the current lineup, but that should change in the next 2 seasons.

 

[Timo pez]

Hawthorn are playing a very risky strategy


They are relying on the cache of Clarkson to get free agents to come and save them.

Good luck with that, up to now all they have been able to attract are perennially injured mercenaries .

IE JOM, Scully. Wingard has been disappointing. Frawley Henderson, Sburger Birchall on their last legs

Worpel is a limited football, Mitchell Lewis hasn't really done much, and that's about it.

The fact that Clarko has somehow made it look like they are an attractive destination for free agents has been the best marketing spin I can remember.

They are cooked .

Its not just Clarko, its the club. The best culture, the most success, the best medicos, it's a safe bet for a FA in knowing you'll probably get a premiership medallion when it's said and done

 

[Ron The Bear]

The first final suited the Tigers ugly scrum style

I've actually found Hawthorn hard viewing in recent times, and put it to you that it's Hawthorn's style that is ugly. Even in some of their most convincing wins - e.g. against Adelaide and GWS - Hawthorn have strangled the opposition with pressure rather than carved them up with the clinical footy they used to be known for. And that pressure has proven unsustainable from week to week. Hawthorn is bottom six for scoring this year, and over the past three years.

 

[Timo pez]

I've actually found Hawthorn hard viewing in recent times, and put it to you that it's Hawthorn's style that is ugly. Even in some of their most convincing wins - e.g. against Adelaide and GWS - Hawthorn have strangled the opposition with pressure rather than carved them up with the clinical footy they used to be known for. And even that pressure has proven unsustainable from week to week. Hawthorn is bottom six for scoring this year, and over the past three years.

It was a bit of a dig at the Tigers Premiership method. I agree, we've been ugly this year. Mids struggle to connect with the forwards, I think last few weeks against Cats and Dockers showed improvement in that respect.

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

GWS fan(s) said the same thing when it was touted that Scully would go for a future 4th.........

Please don't take the thread off topic.

To be fair, Scully for basically nothing was a good deal for all parties. Happy to see him playing okay football back in Victoria.

 

[MrPremiership]

Hawks fans >>> Giants fans.

Happy?

Not sure that's relevant. Stick to the topic. When you wander it shows you've got nothing else good to say

 

[Ron The Bear]

It was a bit of a dig at the Tigers Premiership method. I agree, we've been ugly this year. Mids struggle to connect with the forwards, I think last few weeks against Cats and Dockers showed improvement in that respect.

I see it more as a function of Clarkson working within the limitations of his players.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I guess we will see, but I think you are off on that one. My sources within the club have said that our salary cap is in very good shape going forward and shedding Shiel, Scully and not paying Setterfield what he was asking for has made a massive difference.

Is that why they literally want Patton off their books in a cheap trade?

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

Is that why they literally want Patton off their books in a cheap trade?

Source?

Will believe it when it happens. I hope we take good care of Patton if he wants to stay, being a foundation player.

 

[Great8]

History is everything. It is the reason the Hawks are where they are. Winning has a price and the Hawks are currently paying it.

The question is will they have to pay as much as others have had to?

And history says they won’t.

History also shows that nothing lasts forever and any past deeds have little bearing on the future.

 

[Great8]

How do opposition supporters rank Coniglio right now? Just curious.

I guarantee 100% there will be changed perception and he will be rated a whole lot differently come October.

Nah, he is a very, very good footballer regardless of where he plays next year.
Most people don’t have blinkers on like Hawks fans

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

Nah, he is a very, very good footballer regardless of where he plays next year.
Most people don’t have blinkers on like Hawks fans

Needs to improve his defensive work dramatically to get back to the player he was. His two way running and ability to minimise his opponents impact on the game has fallen off a cliff in 2019. As a player that has suddenly only decided to run one way, he's simply not good enough in his delivery by foot to overcome his lack of defensive presence.

 

[hawkman]

I've actually found Hawthorn hard viewing in recent times, and put it to you that it's Hawthorn's style that is ugly. Even in some of their most convincing wins - e.g. against Adelaide and GWS - Hawthorn have strangled the opposition with pressure rather than carved them up with the clinical footy they used to be known for. And that pressure has proven unsustainable from week to week. Hawthorn is bottom six for scoring this year, and over the past three years.

Last year we went through periods of ugly footy but for the most part it was decent to watch

This year our style has been horrific to watch although it has been better the last month. Hopefully now we actually have some tall forwards that can take a contested mark means some better footy from now on