Expansion Canberra

[Coolangatta]

If conferences were going to be part of the AFL system in 5-10 years time, 20 teams would be the ideal number for a starting point (albeit one Victorian club would have to be fold, merge or be relegated back to VFL level).

Then, you could put the following clubs in the appropriate conferences with the fixture structure mentioned above by Cunnington Cartel for example:

VIC 1: Carlton | Geelong | Footscray | Hawthorn | Richmond

VIC 2: Collingwood | Essendon | Melbourne | St. Kilda | Tasmania

SA-WA: Adelaide | Darwin | Fremantle | Port Adelaide | West Coast

NSW-QLD: Brisbane | Canberra | Gold Coast | Sydney | Western Sydney

In both the Victorian conferences setup, there would be 4 Victorian metro clubs + 1 country club either in Victoria or Tasmania (Geelong / Hobart), while in the SA-WA & NSW-QLD conferences, both Darwin and Canberra join their respectful divisions to help add the numbers, as shown above.

I actually see the whole point of conferences as preserving the existing Victorian clubs and preventing expansion from dying off.

Essentially, to go beyond 20 teams in the future.

It absolutely can be done and I have an example structure in another thread of a 26 team comp. Of course, that is not until near the end of the century, with expansion happening every 15-20 years.

Conference champions would be top four and the best of the rest fighting for four spots in the top eight.

Victorian conferences would play each other once every year. I think this is fair as the comp grew out of the VFL.

Every club would still play 23 games a year and any club you didn’t play one season you’d play the next.

But the marquee games we have now would still be preserved each season, the AFL loses nothing.

The only downside is it becomes so much harder to win a premiership but within a generation, winning a conference would be seen as a big deal.

 

[____]

Conferences are a terrible idea. Not to mention the old Fitzroy and South Melbourne fans in Victoria would see their teams in the flesh a lot less.

The end goal should be having every team play each other once.

 

[Coolangatta]

Conferences are a terrible idea. Not to mention the old Fitzroy and South Melbourne fans in Victoria would see their teams in the flesh a lot less.

The end goal should be having every team play each other once.

Well, that would mean 24 teams playing 23 games.

You are not going to get 20 teams playing 19 or 20 games a year, that is financially a loss for clubs, players, members, and broadcasters.

Of the 26 clubs I added, if I had to reduce to 24, then I'd remove New Zealand and a 3rd Sydney club. At least two clubs in Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane, and Sydney, looks like a good long-term goal. Brisbane is going to be way too big for just one club eventually, and they'll have that new Olympic Gabba stadium by 2032.

Option A: Tasmania, 3rd WA, 3rd SA, Canberra, joint North Queensland/Northern Territory, 2nd Brisbane = 24 clubs
Option B: Tasmania, 3rd WA, Canberra, Northern Territory, North Queensland, 2nd Brisbane = 24 clubs

A is just as likely as B. Hutchy and co have briefly talked about a 20th team being a Northern Australia team based out of Darwin. If I were to guess, they'd play 7 games in Darwin, 3 in Cairns, and 1 in Alice Springs. I think such an option would be better for a 22nd club but it is what it is.

If NT and NQ did get their own clubs, however, then I'd go 2nd Brisbane over 3rd Adelaide, linking that club with the Sunshine Coast, and link the Giants to Newcastle.

11 games in Brisbane = 10 home at Gabba, 1 home at Sunshine Coast, 1 away against Lions.
11 games in Sydney = 10 home at Giants Stadium, 1 home at Newcastle, 1 away against Swans.

Edit: I would prefer option A, personally.

Tasmania: 7 Hobart, 4 Launceston.
Canberra: 9 Canberra, 2 Wagga Wagga.
Perth: 9-11 Optus, 0-1 Joondalup, 0-1 Bunbury.
Adelaide/Central: 9-10 Adelaide, 1-2 Alice Springs.
Northern: 7 Darwin, 2 Cairns, 1 Townsville, 1 Mackay.
Brisbane: 10 Brisbane, 1 Sunshine Coast.

 

[Thailander]

Canberra Kangaroos winning the flag would solidify their place in their new home, and would be AFL’s final victory over NRL.

 

[Coolangatta]

Canberra Kangaroos winning the flag would solidify their place in their new home, and would be AFL’s final victory over NRL.

I mean, it'd be controversial, but relocating a Vic club to Canberra would allow Perth and Adelaide to have 3rd teams, Brisbane to have a 2nd second team, and the Northern Territory and North Queensland to have teams, making it a 24 team competition with everyone playing each other once.

But due to the fact even the small Vic clubs have good following, it's probably better to just have a combined Northern Australia team and Canberra get their own.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Canberra Kangaroos winning the flag would solidify their place in their new home, and would be AFL’s final victory over NRL.

Extremely unlikely that any of the smaller Victorian teams will relocate or merge. Even St Kilda decided to play all their games in Melbourne this year, rather than continue playing one game in Cairns (which btw has no AFL game this year).

As for the Kangaroos in Canberra, no thanks. It was tried before with us, and they sold the Canberra games to the Gold Coast before selling the games to Hobart when they decided not to take up the AFL’s offer to relocate to the Gold Coast. GWS Giants is Canberra’s AFL team as well, and has established a successful long term relationship in Canberra, which will be 21 years long by the time the current contract between the Giants, AFL and the ACT Government expires in 2032.

 

[Coolangatta]

Extremely unlikely that any of the smaller Victorian teams will relocate or merge. Even St Kilda decided to play all their games in Melbourne this year, rather than continue playing one game in Cairns (which btw has no AFL game this year).

As for the Kangaroos in Canberra, no thanks. It was tried before with us, and they sold the Canberra games to the Gold Coast before selling the games to Hobart when they decided not to take up the AFL’s offer to relocate to the Gold Coast. GWS Giants is Canberra’s AFL team as well, and has established a successful long term relationship in Canberra, which will be 21 years long by the time the current contract between the Giants, AFL and the ACT Government expires in 2032.

Yeah, I'd prefer Canberra get their own team, and as the 20th, in 2033.

Next I would add a 2nd Brisbane side and a team in the south-west region of WA.

Lastly, NT and NQ.

I think two teams each in Perth, Sydney, Adelaide, and Brisbane would be a nice balance, with the Sunshine Coast and Newcastle served as secondary markets.

Suggested names: Tasmania Devils, Canberra Rams, North Brisbane Bears, South West Sharks, Northern Territory Thunder, North Queensland Crocodiles.

 

[Canberra Pear]

As for the Kangaroos in Canberra, no thanks. It was tried before with us, and they sold the Canberra games to the Gold Coast before selling the games to Hobart when they decided not to take up the AFL’s offer to relocate to the Gold Coast. GWS Giants is Canberra’s AFL team as well, and has established a successful long term relationship in Canberra, which will be 21 years long by the time the current contract between the Giants, AFL and the ACT Government expires in 2032.

So you're saying you'd rather three games a year from GWS rather than a full-time relocated Victorian team?

I'm not an advocate for relocation, but as a Canberran, I'd take it over a part-time team.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

So you're saying you'd rather three games a year from GWS rather than a full-time relocated Victorian team?

I'm not an advocate for relocation, but as a Canberran, I'd take it over a part-time team.

I honestly don’t think there will be any relocation or merger of any Victorian clubs. The time when this could have happened has passed, and whilst I think there are too many Victorian clubs in a National competition, even the weakest Victorian club can survive and the Directors and members of these clubs won’t let a relocation happen.

The best we’ll get is a Victorian club selling a couple of games to us temporarily, before they are financially secure enough to play all their games in Victoria. Why would we want that when the Giants have made a 21 year (at least) commitment to us.

While I genuinely respect your opinions and admire your strident advocacy, I think the lack of active ACT Government lobbying and funding support, the issues with the rectangular codes wanting funding for their own standalone stadium, budget issues with Calvary Hospital and the Trams, it’s hard to see us getting a Team 20.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I honestly don’t think there will be any relocation or merger of any Victorian clubs. The time when this could have happened has passed, and whilst I think there are too many Victorian clubs in a National competition, even the weakest Victorian club can survive and the Directors and members of these clubs won’t let a relocation happen.

The best we’ll get is a Victorian club selling a couple of games to us temporarily, before they are financially secure enough to play all their games in Victoria. Why would we want that when the Giants have made a 21 year (at least) commitment to us.

I don't think there'll be a relocation or merger either, but in response to somebody mentioning the Canberra Kangaroos, you basically said, "no thanks, we've got the Giants".

So all I wanted to know was, in a hypothetical world where a Victorian club had to move, would you prefer the status quo of a part-time Giants, or a full-time Victorian relocation?

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

If conferences were going to be part of the AFL system in 5-10 years time, 20 teams would be the ideal number for a starting point (albeit one Victorian club would have to be fold, merge or be relegated back to VFL level).

Then, you could put the following clubs in the appropriate conferences with the fixture structure mentioned above by Cunnington Cartel for example:

VIC 1: Carlton | Geelong | Footscray | Hawthorn | Richmond

VIC 2: Collingwood | Essendon | Melbourne | St. Kilda | Tasmania

SA-WA: Adelaide | Darwin | Fremantle | Port Adelaide | West Coast

NSW-QLD: Brisbane | Canberra | Gold Coast | Sydney | Western Sydney

In both the Victorian conferences setup, there would be 4 Victorian metro clubs + 1 country club either in Victoria or Tasmania (Geelong / Hobart), while in the SA-WA & NSW-QLD conferences, both Darwin and Canberra join their respectful divisions to help add the numbers, as shown above.

I agree that 20 clubs would be the perfect number to start it. For sure, your model could definitely work. However, instead of folding a Victorian club I think all 10 should remain and have one fewer expansion club enter (at that stage). Then instead of putting Tassie in a Vic conference you can chuck them in a ‘Southern’ conference with the WA and SA clubs (instead of Darwin) or an ‘Eastern’ Conference with QLD and NSW (instead of Canberra). Hobart is a similar distance from both Adelaide and Sydney so it’s no problem for them to be in either of those conferences.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Conferences are a terrible idea. Not to mention the old Fitzroy and South Melbourne fans in Victoria would see their teams in the flesh a lot less.

The end goal should be having every team play each other once.

They actually wouldn’t see them “a lot less”. With 10 Victorian clubs, every non-Victorian club would be guaranteed to travel to Vic 5 x every season, even if they were in different conferences.

 

[Coolangatta]

They actually wouldn’t see them “a lot less”. With 10 Victorian clubs, every non-Victorian club would be guaranteed to travel to Vic 5 x every season, even if they were in different conferences.

Yes, it’d be essentially the same as it is now. And as I’ve said, even if the competition became too big for everyone to play each other once each year, you could still mandate the Victorian conferences playing each other every year. I think this is fair, as the WA/SA/NSW/QLD would play each other every year, so the 10 Victorian sides should play each other at least once every year, too.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Seems the Canberra soccer CEO wants more funding for the Kanga Cup junior soccer tournament. The ACT government will also be facing more requests for soccer funding when a new Canberra team enters the Aleague next year, and there may also be a Canberra team in the national soccer second division as well.

We pay $50,000 to $70,000 for ground hire during the tournament,” said Ivan. “We receive less than that in Government funding to stage the event.

“The government pays $2.8 million a year for GWS to play at Manuka … yet we are putting thousands of people into accommodation in Canberra in the middle of winter for the week of the Kanga Cup.”

There has been interest from rival regional centres looking to snare the lucrative event away from Canberra. The offers have been well in excess of the funding received from the ACT Government, but Capital Football owns the rights to the Kanga Cup and Ivan Slavich said the tournament won’t be leaving the city.

Capital Football committed to keeping the Kanga Cup in Canberra but more government support is needed | Region Canberra

The Kanga Cup, the largest International Youth Football tournament in the Southern Hemisphere, has become an institution in Canberra. From…

the-riotact.com

 

[The Educator]

Seems the Canberra soccer CEO wants more funding for the Kanga Cup junior soccer tournament. The ACT government will also be facing more requests for soccer funding when a new Canberra team enters the Aleague next year, and there may also be a Canberra team in the national soccer second division as well.

We pay $50,000 to $70,000 for ground hire during the tournament,” said Ivan. “We receive less than that in Government funding to stage the event.

“The government pays $2.8 million a year for GWS to play at Manuka … yet we are putting thousands of people into accommodation in Canberra in the middle of winter for the week of the Kanga Cup.”

There has been interest from rival regional centres looking to snare the lucrative event away from Canberra. The offers have been well in excess of the funding received from the ACT Government, but Capital Football owns the rights to the Kanga Cup and Ivan Slavich said the tournament won’t be leaving the city.

Capital Football committed to keeping the Kanga Cup in Canberra but more government support is needed | Region Canberra

The Kanga Cup, the largest International Youth Football tournament in the Southern Hemisphere, has become an institution in Canberra. From…

the-riotact.com

Soccer body squealing about money going to the AFL. Have I read this story before?

The only basis the AFL, or touring soccer teams, get significant dollars is the content is part of a contract. This tournament has probably grown to where it is through ACT tax payer funding

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Some angst that the Barr government hasn’t bid to host some of the Women’s World Cup games or the 2027 Rugby World Cup games. While it’s inevitable that some people will be criticising funding for sports over education, health, arts etc, some of the comments also criticise the spending on AFL instead of bidding to get some Women World Cup games in Canberra. Whilst these comments may/ may not be representative of wider community sentiment, it does indicate the potential difficulties in an ACT Government committing substantial financial support for Team 20. Unlike the NT and Tasmanian AFL bids, the other sporting codes will also want their share of funding, with the Barr government already facing substantial opposition from the rectangular codes over the upgrades to Bruce Stadium.

OK for Canberra to be sitting on the sidelines for the FIFA Women’s World Cup? | Region Canberra

In 2019 the ACT Government opted out of bidding to stage FIFA Women’s World Cup games at Canberra Stadium. The…

the-riotact.com

 

[____]

Some angst that the Barr government hasn’t bid to host some of the Women’s World Cup games or the 2027 Rugby World Cup games. While it’s inevitable that some people will be criticising funding for sports over education, health, arts etc, some of the comments also criticise the spending on AFL instead of bidding to get some Women World Cup games in Canberra. Whilst these comments may/ may not be representative of wider community sentiment, it does indicate the potential difficulties in an ACT Government committing substantial financial support for Team 20. Unlike the NT and Tasmanian AFL bids, the other sporting codes will also want their share of funding, with the Barr government already facing substantial opposition from the rectangular codes over the upgrades to Bruce Stadium.

OK for Canberra to be sitting on the sidelines for the FIFA Women’s World Cup? | Region Canberra

In 2019 the ACT Government opted out of bidding to stage FIFA Women’s World Cup games at Canberra Stadium. The…

the-riotact.com

That's a shame, I think Canberra would have gotten good crowds at the women's world cup games (no chance they would have gotten Matilda's though). Their ground is also IIRC bigger than the ones being used in Adelaide and Perth, so they would have gotten a good share of group games and a round of 16 game.

Would have also been interesting to see the Raiders play at Manuka or Seiffert Oval for the novelty of it.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Some angst that the Barr government hasn’t bid to host some of the Women’s World Cup games or the 2027 Rugby World Cup games. While it’s inevitable that some people will be criticising funding for sports over education, health, arts etc, some of the comments also criticise the spending on AFL instead of bidding to get some Women World Cup games in Canberra. Whilst these comments may/ may not be representative of wider community sentiment, it does indicate the potential difficulties in an ACT Government committing substantial financial support for Team 20. Unlike the NT and Tasmanian AFL bids, the other sporting codes will also want their share of funding, with the Barr government already facing substantial opposition from the rectangular codes over the upgrades to Bruce Stadium.

OK for Canberra to be sitting on the sidelines for the FIFA Women’s World Cup? | Region Canberra

In 2019 the ACT Government opted out of bidding to stage FIFA Women’s World Cup games at Canberra Stadium. The…

the-riotact.com

The first comment says "How much are we paying for the smattering of Aussie Rules matches at Manuka?".

The Raiders get almost as much funding as the Giants and nobody bats an eyelid. The discontent isn't that AFL is being funded, it's that the money is going to an interstate team.

It is a shame we're not getting world cup games though. We're the only place in the country with a standalone women's soccer team. And an amazing WNBL team. Canberra gets behind its women's sports.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Barr government is contributing $29m for a Home of Soccer in the Gunghalin area, with Capital Football providing $4.5 million. Also, the ACT government is increasing its funding to the Canberra United Aleague Women’s team by $250k for the next two years ($125k pa)

Kick-off one step closer for Throsby Home of Football after key planning approval | Region Canberra

A new headquarters for the round ball game in Canberra is a step closer after the approval of the Estate…

the-riotact.com

 

[Canberra Pear]

The Giants vs Suns game just got a crowd 10,026 at Manuka.

That's the first Giants-hosted version of that fixture to achieve a five-figure crowd. The crowd was 20.7% larger than the largest Giants Stadium Suns crowd (8,308).

In the 2023 season so far, the top three Giants home crowds are the three Canberra games (noting they still have games against Sydney and Essendon to come).

Also worth noting that the Giants have had Sydney games against Richmond, Carlton and Hawthorn, while opposition in Canberra have all been bottom-five clubs in terms of membership.

Our crowds would have been even higher if we had bigger teams (and an actual Canberra team to support).

 

[Bjo187]

The Giants vs Suns game just got a crowd 10,026 at Manuka.

That's the first Giants-hosted version of that fixture to achieve a five-figure crowd. The crowd was 20.7% larger than the largest Giants Stadium Suns crowd (8,308).

In the 2023 season so far, the top three Giants home crowds are the three Canberra games (noting they still have games against Sydney and Essendon to come).

Also worth noting that the Giants have had Sydney games against Richmond, Carlton and Hawthorn, while opposition in Canberra have all been bottom-five clubs in terms of membership.

Our crowds would have been even higher if we had bigger teams (and an actual Canberra team to support).

What capacity would you have a stadium for a Canberra team? Concious of the fact gws and gc seemed to overreach at 25k and it often looks poor on tv.

 

[Canberra Pear]

What capacity would you have a stadium for a Canberra team? Concious of the fact gws and gc seemed to overreach at 25k and it often looks poor on tv.

Good question. Have to balance not overreaching, and not locking people out.

I would say 18k at an absolute minimum. I would expect us to be perennially sold out if that were the case. We should get higher potential crowds than either the Suns or the Giants.

22-23k would probably be ideal. Especially if we can get it done with space for an expansion or temporary seating for finals.

 

[Bjo187]

Good question. Have to balance not overreaching, and not locking people out.

I would say 18k at an absolute minimum. I would expect us to be perennially sold out if that were the case. We should get higher potential crowds than either the Suns or the Giants.

22-23k would probably be ideal. Especially if we can get it done with space for an expansion or temporary seating for finals.

Yeah I agree actually, just over 20k capacity would be good.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Yeah I agree actually, just over 20k capacity would be good.

Also cricket would also have a view, as both our codes would be sharing the stadium? But 20k should meet their needs as well?

 

[The Educator]

Also cricket would also have a view, as both our codes would be sharing the stadium? But 20k should meet their needs as well?

It is demented that for the country's two biggest drawing sports, we are capping a hypothetical stadium at 20,000 (probably an augmented Manuka), whereas it looks inevitable that Canberra will have a rectangular 30K stadium that will very rarely be filled that football and cricket can't play in