Expansion Canberra

[Coolangatta]

Unfortunately I just cannot see any Victorian clubs relocating or merging. Norths are far stronger financially now, than when they rejected the AFL package to relocate to the Gold Coast. In addition I believe there are constitutional safeguards that require an overwhelming membership vote for any relocation.

Agreed, plus the Giants will have spent a long time in Canberra by the time 2032 rolls around. They've developed a solid connection with the locals, it's a risk to hope they'd embrace a Vic relocation; the safest option would just be for Canberra to have their own team which we know they would embrace.

If the Roos or Saints or Dogs were ever going to relocate, it'd need to be somewhere they've spent time building a connection with. And it seems like they're all intent on playing in Victoria in the future, not the Sunshine Coast or wherever, so I'd say maybe one of them moves to regional Victoria if they feel they need to in the distant future.

But an interstate relocation? Doubtful.

I hope Vic's don't get too triggered over the idea of conferences, though, cause that's the path we're going down if the Vic clubs aren't going anywhere and the game keeps getting bigger in NSW and QLD. I mean, I did mention conferences in my email to Andrew Dillon and if he did read it (which it sounds like he might have), then they're at the very least aware of the concept and the possibility (I'm sure they already were).

Of course, that would be for a different CEO and management to decide. They aren't thinking about a 20th let alone a 21st, but if the day ever comes for a 21st team, well, Vic's are the last group that should whinge about it.

 

[Canberra Pear]

There are some ignorant people here that keep repeating the nonsense about us not being Canberra’s AFL team. Just repeating that does not make it true.

The Giants are indeed Canberra’s AFL team - the club, the AFL and the ACT Government states that we are. Whether you like it or not, Giants will play here till at least 2032 - a 21 year relationship that easily eclipses the agreements we had with other AFL teams.

Depends on your definition of what constitutes Canberra's team.

Is North Hobart's team? Because that's pretty much the same level (except Hobart gets more games).

 

[Canberra Pear]

But surely this is just semantics. Even if people who will go to GWS Canberra games will say out loud that they are not GWS fans, the very fact that they continue to go to GWS games and buy GWS memberships makes them part of the Giants supporter base, by very definition of the actions that they take going to the games. Even if they claim that they are not supporting the Giants or whatever, the money that comes out of their wallet is still consistently going to the Giants in a manner that's identical to being a Giants fan.

We're still adding to the bottom line, but it's doing a disservice to both the AFL and Canberra fans.

The buy-in for a full-time team would be huge. The Giants consistently get 6k Canberra members. I reckon a Canberra team would get 25-30k members in its first year.

And it's frustrating that one of the hurdles of a Canberra team is the perception that the Giants have Canberra covered.

It's not as if there's any particular evidence that Canberrans are dropping off going to games in the same way that Hobart fans are with North games because they don't feel like the team is 'representing them'. And the ACT government appear confident that that will continue to be the case as the basis for what they're paying the Giants in their 10-year deal assumes a level of continued attendance in that time.

This is another frustration of mine.

Tasmanians have the luxury of low crowds and people say it's a protest against North. If our crowds drop off in Canberra, it's because we're in rugby territory.

 

[Roylion]

Footscray and Fitzroy were mentioned in the article, maybe Canberra should've targeted one of them instead, especially Fitzroy.

They did. The AFL refused to allow the move.

I mean, everyone always talks about the tragedy of Fitzroy leaving the AFL but South is not seen the same way because they moved to Sydney.

Of course. They relocated and weren't ejected.

it's not the same thing as the Fitzroy exit because Fitzroy gave up their AFL license and essentially the club to Brisbane.

No they didn't.

As far as the AFL is concerned, especially when it comes to records, the Brisbane Lions are just the Brisbane Bears revamped,

Same club. Same licence.

 

[Coolangatta]

They did. The AFL refused to allow the move.


Of course. They relocated and weren't ejected.


No they didn't.


Same club. Same licence.

Yeah, I forgot that I already knew that, whoops. A damn shame, they were hell bent on keeping it to 16 teams at the time, yet Tassie could've come in soon after Port to make it 18.

I wouldn't have had a problem with the Suns and Giants being team 19 and 20 but I guess 20 is a stretch for them now let alone back in 2012.

Wait, Fitzroy didn't play ball with the AFL on leaving? Then how did Brissy end up getting all their stuff, their assets, their players, their identity then? I know the AFL had them by the barrel of their financial gun but I was under the impression Fitzroy caved and folded.

 

[Roylion]

Wait, Fitzroy didn't play ball with the AFL on leaving?

The administrator surrendered the licence to the AFL. No new licence was issued to the Brisbane Bears, nor was Fitzroy's licence transferred to anyone. Once the administrator had discharged the debts, control of the club was returned to the elected directors.

Then how did Brissy end up getting all their stuff, their assets, their players, their identity then?

Sold by the administrator to the Brisbane Bears. The Brisbane Bears were given eight pre-draft selections from Fitzroy's list by the AFL..the rest of Fitzroy's players went into the regular draft.

Fitzroy's identity was already largely owned by the AFL, who merely transferred it to the Bears - another one of their franchises - who rebranded.

I know the AFL had them by the barrel of their financial gun but I was under the impression Fitzroy caved and folded.

Fitzroy Football Club were ejected from the AFL. They still exist in their own right. They even managed to trademark the Fitzroy ''FFC" logo. The club wears the same colours and jumper they wore in the AFL, to this day.

 

[Badger17]

There are some ignorant people here that keep repeating the nonsense about us not being Canberra’s AFL team. Just repeating that does not make it true.

The Giants are indeed Canberra’s AFL team - the club, the AFL and the ACT Government states that we are. Whether you like it or not, Giants will play here till at least 2032 - a 21 year relationship that easily eclipses the agreements we had with other AFL teams.

Andrew Barr's sycophantic relationship with the AFL and GWS claiming it because it's convenient doesn't make it true.

You wanna be Canberra's team you need to be a part of the community and exist for it's benefit. GWS is neither. GWS doesn't live in the community, it doesn't represent it in any meaningful manner, they don't even really care about Canberra and the region aside from how it can benefit them. It's a totally transactional, increasingly parasitic, relationship and it's honestly embarrassing that anybody would suggest otherwise.

For the record, I've got nothing against GWS per se. They're just doing what's best for them.

 

[Badger17]

But surely this is just semantics. Even if people who will go to GWS Canberra games will say out loud that they are not GWS fans, the very fact that they continue to go to GWS games and buy GWS memberships makes them part of the Giants supporter base, by very definition of the actions that they take going to the games. Even if they claim that they are not supporting the Giants or whatever, the money that comes out of their wallet is still consistently going to the Giants in a manner that's identical to being a Giants fan.

It's not as if there's any particular evidence that Canberrans are dropping off going to games in the same way that Hobart fans are with North games because they don't feel like the team is 'representing them'. And the ACT government appear confident that that will continue to be the case as the basis for what they're paying the Giants in their 10-year deal assumes a level of continued attendance in that time.

It wasn't until you came in with a semantics argument. The day they stop playing games here GWS's support base in Canberra will shrivel to almost nothing, just as Norths and others did before them. For the vast majority of people here that buy GWS memberships it's a marriage of convenience, nothing more.

In my experience GWS's members base in Canberra is disproportionately made up of expats who moved to Canberra for school or work and their children, not the local population. So locals are showing that they don't feel like the team represents them by voting with their feet, but despite the general apathy amongst locals the expat population is large enough here to support the team's operation unlike in Tasmania.

Besides, the fact that GWS has a default support base here because of circumstance doesn't mean that that makes them "Canberra's team" by any reasonable definition, which was the actual point of contention.

 

[Giant YoYo]

It wasn't until you came in with a semantics argument. The day they stop playing games here GWS's support base in Canberra will shrivel to almost nothing, just as Norths and others did before them. For the vast majority of people here that buy GWS memberships it's a marriage of convenience, nothing more.

In my experience GWS's members base in Canberra is disproportionately made up of expats who moved to Canberra for school or work and their children, not the local population. So locals are showing that they don't feel like the team represents them by voting with their feet, but despite the general apathy amongst locals the expat population is large enough here to support the team's operation unlike in Tasmania.

Besides, the fact that GWS has a default support base here because of circumstance doesn't mean that that makes them "Canberra's team" by any reasonable definition, which was the actual point of contention.

It's quite interesting the lengths the locals go to voting with their feet, supporting teams interstate and not closer to.

It goes to show that even if Canberra did have their own team people will still go to extreme lengths to support teams far away. I mean, I read on this forum someone from Sydney going to pains to explain why they didn't support the Giants because they had so many priority picks but didn't convert to a flag.

I assume same could be said for those in Canberra and the same will happen there unless any Canberra team is immediately successful.

 

[Canberra Pear]

It's quite interesting the lengths the locals go to voting with their feet, supporting teams interstate and not closer to.

It goes to show that even if Canberra did have their own team people will still go to extreme lengths to support teams far away. I mean, I read on this forum someone from Sydney going to pains to explain why they didn't support the Giants because they had so many priority picks but didn't convert to a flag.

I assume same could be said for those in Canberra and the same will happen there unless any Canberra team is immediately successful.

It's not that most AFL fans in Canberra are actively avoiding GWS*, it's that they've inherited a different team, and an interstate team that only plays three games a year here isn't worth the conversion.

But many of us will take GWS in the meantime as it's all we've got. Games are more interesting when you have someone to support. Plenty of us are GWS members with plenty of GWS merch. But I'd say 90% of the crowd you see wearing GWS gear at Manuka doesn't support them as a first team. And would instantly drop them for a Canberra team.

*There is also a decent chunk of Canberrans that actively avoid and deride the Giants as they don't like an interstate club getting such so much Canberra money.

 

[Giant YoYo]

It's not that most AFL fans in Canberra are actively avoiding GWS*, it's that they've inherited a different team, and an interstate team that only plays three games a year here isn't worth the conversion.

But many of us will take GWS in the meantime as it's all we've got. Games are more interesting when you have someone to support. Plenty of us are GWS members with plenty of GWS merch. But I'd say 90% of the crowd you see wearing GWS gear at Manuka doesn't support them as a first team. And would instantly drop them for a Canberra team.

*There is also a decent chunk of Canberrans that actively avoid and deride the Giants as they don't like an interstate club getting such so much Canberra money.

Why is a far away, interstate team that seldom plays in Canberra worth supporting while one that plays four times a year isn't?

We come down to Canberra quite regularly and will do so for the two upcoming games (not sure of the Hawks game at this time due to a family function and scheduling), if the Canberra tourism board didn't see a benefit to this arrangement they wouldn't be supportive of it.

Your post highlights the lengths people will go to avoid a team that spends more time in Canberra than the one currently appearing on their profile.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Why is a far away, interstate team that seldom plays in Canberra worth supporting while one that plays four times a year isn't?

Because most AFL fans in Canberra aren't AFL fans because of the Giants.

I grew up watching Port with my mum and friends, and we still something we bond over. As I said, most Canberrans have inherited their AFL teams and probably have similar back stories.

Why would we swap allegiances for a part-time interstate team?

We come down to Canberra quite regularly and will do so for the two upcoming games (not sure of the Hawks game at this time due to a family function and scheduling), if the Canberra tourism board didn't see a benefit to this arrangement they wouldn't be supportive of it.

It is a positive deal for Canberra tourism. There is a positive return on investment.

But the Giants getting more than the Raiders or Brumbies still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Read any Canberra comment section mentioning the Giants and you'll see multiple comments to that effect.

It's a good business deal, but it still puts neutrals and non-AFL fans off the Giants.

Your post highlights the lengths people will go to avoid a team that spends more time in Canberra than the one currently appearing on their profile.

By that logic, you should be a Swans supporter as they spend more time in Sydney.

But to reiterate, it's not that Canberra AFL fans avoid the Giants, it's that the Giants don't do enough to shift our allegiances. Most Canberran AFL fans are more than happy to politely support them as a second team in the meantime.

 

[Bjo187]

Andrew Barr's sycophantic relationship with the AFL and GWS claiming it because it's convenient doesn't make it true.

You wanna be Canberra's team you need to be a part of the community and exist for it's benefit. GWS is neither. GWS doesn't live in the community, it doesn't represent it in any meaningful manner, they don't even really care about Canberra and the region aside from how it can benefit them. It's a totally transactional, increasingly parasitic, relationship and it's honestly embarrassing that anybody would suggest otherwise.

For the record, I've got nothing against GWS per se. They're just doing what's best for them.

The rugby league troll is back. Reality is, you wouldn't support a Canberra AFL team anyway, so you've made it your purpose to try to ensure other Canberran's don't support the Giants, because to you, the giants represent the sport you hate 'in Canberra'.

The Giants get paid more than your local rugby team does, because they bring in more interstate travelers than the little sport known as the NRL does. It's basic economics.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

It wasn't until you came in with a semantics argument. The day they stop playing games here GWS's support base in Canberra will shrivel to almost nothing, just as Norths and others did before them. For the vast majority of people here that buy GWS memberships it's a marriage of convenience, nothing more.

In my experience GWS's members base in Canberra is disproportionately made up of expats who moved to Canberra for school or work and their children, not the local population. So locals are showing that they don't feel like the team represents them by voting with their feet, but despite the general apathy amongst locals the expat population is large enough here to support the team's operation unlike in Tasmania.

Besides, the fact that GWS has a default support base here because of circumstance doesn't mean that that makes them "Canberra's team" by any reasonable definition, which was the actual point of contention.

Tht's not even a counter to my argument though. As long as Canberrans consistently turn out to their games, which is unequivocally occurring, your points are irrelavent. The fact that there is some sort of "default" arrangement that allows for GWS to minimise some of their ongoing losses/AFL investment is something that works well for all parties. Tribalism and population growth aside, the AFL would never base a team full-time team anywhere without better full-time facilities than what Canberra currently has. Subsequently Canberrans get to see a handful of games that the same team plays and that there is some sort of link (through the Academy) rather than just random, contextless games.

And you can't have it both ways with how you're defining a "local", "expat", and whether they'd support GWS, a Canberra team, support footy a random AFL game general with neither, or keep supporting their original team.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Tht's not even a counter to my argument though. As long as Canberrans consistently turn out to their games, which is unequivocally occurring, your points are irrelavent. The fact that there is some sort of "default" arrangement that allows for GWS to minimise some of their ongoing losses/AFL investment is something that works well for all parties. Tribalism and population growth aside, the AFL would never base a team full-time team anywhere without better full-time facilities than what Canberra currently has. Subsequently Canberrans get to see a handful of games that the same team plays and that there is some sort of link (through the Academy) rather than just random, contextless games.

absolutely agree. The contract Giants have with our ACT government to play 3 AFL games annually (in addition to a preseason game and at least 1 AFLW game) till at least 2032 works for everyone.

The Giants see themselves as Canberra’s AFL team, and as seen by the long term agreement the deal works for Canberra and the AFL. The Giants will have been in Canberra for at least 21 years by the time the contract is up for renewal. There is a genuine connection to Canberra, and whilst for some the Giants may have started off as a second team, over a 21 year timeframe they will become the primary AFL team for most. In addition there are a lot of kids here, including mine, to whom the Giants are their primary team

 

[Canberra Pear]

whilst for some the Giants may have started off as a second team, over a 21 year timeframe they will become the primary AFL team for most. In addition there are a lot of kids here, including mine, to whom the Giants are their primary team

I appreciate what the Giants have done in Canberra, I really do. But there's no chance the Giants become the primary AFL team for most Canberrans by 2032. They would be lucky to push into the top three by then.

I personally don't know a single person in Canberra that supports GWS as their primary team. Of the friends and colleagues whose team I know, every team but Gold Coast and GWS are covered. And a fair few of those are GWS members.

GWS will pick up a few kids over the next decade, but can't see the Giants converting many of those supporting other teams. Not with their current limited presence. It would be an entirely different story if they ever relocated.

 

[sherb]

There are some ignorant people here that keep repeating the nonsense about us not being Canberra’s AFL team. Just repeating that does not make it true.

The Giants are indeed Canberra’s AFL team - the club, the AFL and the ACT Government states that we are. Whether you like it or not, Giants will play here till at least 2032 - a 21 year relationship that easily eclipses the agreements we had with other AFL teams.

The Giants are supposed to be Greater Western Sydney's team.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I appreciate what the Giants have done in Canberra, I really do. But there's no chance the Giants become the primary AFL team for most Canberrans by 2032. They would be lucky to push into the top three by then.

I personally don't know a single person in Canberra that supports GWS as their primary team. Of the friends and colleagues whose team I know, every team but Gold Coast and GWS are covered. And a fair few of those are GWS members.

GWS will pick up a few kids over the next decade, but can't see the Giants converting many of those supporting other teams. Not with their current limited presence. It would be an entirely different story if they ever relocated.

Apart from some tacky marketing in the first couple of years (the Prime Minister's Cup or whatever) is that really something that is being aimed for or matters though? It's not as if the AFL is hoping or expecting Canberrans to drive themlesves to Western Sydney for other GWS home games, though obviously any amount above 0 is a bonus.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

The Giants are supposed to be Greater Western Sydney's team.

Technically no! As per our club constitution, our club’s specific focus is on developing and growing Australian Football in the Western Sydney Region and its surrounds, the state of NSW and the ACT.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I appreciate what the Giants have done in Canberra, I really do. But there's no chance the Giants become the primary AFL team for most Canberrans by 2032. They would be lucky to push into the top three by then.

I personally don't know a single person in Canberra that supports GWS as their primary team. Of the friends and colleagues whose team I know, every team but Gold Coast and GWS are covered. And a fair few of those are GWS members.

GWS will pick up a few kids over the next decade, but can't see the Giants converting many of those supporting other teams. Not with their current limited presence. It would be an entirely different story if they ever relocated.

You need to expand your social circle!..people I know, especially people who don’t have a primary AFL team or who are new to the code, have Giants as their primary AFL team in Canberra. Even for those who have other AFL teams, over a 21 year generational timeframe, the Giants will inevitably be their team for a significant proportion - especially since all 23 Giants games in a season are on Free To Air TV in Canberra. The Giants also attract a lot of kids and this is evident in the home matches played here.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Apart from some tacky marketing in the first couple of years (the Prime Minister's Cup or whatever) is that really something that is being aimed for or matters though?

It doesn't really matter. But it's doing Canberra a disservice.

People will insist that Canberran AFL fans are all aboard the Giants train, then say we don't need a team because we already have the Giants.

All I'm stating is that the Giants have been a nice interim option, but we shouldn't have to be shackled to them. In the meantime, I'll keep buying Giants memberships, going to games, even wearing Giants gear. But I will be royally pissed if the relationship gets in the way of us getting our own team.

It's not as if the AFL is hoping or expecting Canberrans to drive themlesves to Western Sydney for other GWS home games, though obviously any amount above 0 is a bonus.

Not really though. If you're getting more Canberra fans at the expense of Sydney fans, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. Especially if Paul gets his own team, then Peter's just poorer.

 

[Canberra Pear]

You need to expand your social circle!..people I know, especially people who don’t have a primary AFL team or who are new to the code, have Giants as their primary AFL team in Canberra. Even for those who have other AFL teams, over a 21 year generational timeframe, the Giants will inevitably be their team for a significant proportion - especially since all 23 Giants games in a season are on Free To Air TV in Canberra. The Giants also attract a lot of kids and this is evident in the home matches played here.

Admittedly, all of my social circle are adults, and very few new to the code. The other day I was bored and made a list of every Canberran AFL fan whose team I could remember. It was 53 fans, no Giants fans. Unsurprisingly, Collingwood was the most popular.

Kids will get on board. I think a lot of Canberran households have parents supporting different teams, which makes it less likely for the kid to follow suit and therefore follow the local-ish team.

But I think the number of those changing clubs would be very small.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Admittedly, all of my social circle are adults, and very few new to the code. The other day I was bored and made a list of every Canberran AFL fan whose team I could remember. It was 53 fans, no Giants fans. Unsurprisingly, Collingwood was the most popular.

Kids will get on board. I think a lot of Canberran households have parents supporting different teams, which makes it less likely for the kid to follow suit and therefore follow the local-ish team.

But I think the number of those changing clubs would be very small.

Fair point and also agree that kids will get on board. My school aged children met Toby, Tom Green, “Giant” Preuss etc during the times they were here, and are Giants Recruits with Giants their AFL team.

But whilst people who are older and who followed another AFL team from childhood may not change immediately, over a 21 year generational timeframe there will be some movement? This is especially in the context of Giants being the only constant AFL team that plays locally, whose games are all televised free to air, and whose players are physically here at least 4-5 times for community meet and greets?

 

[sherb]

Technically no! As per our club constitution, our club’s specific focus is on developing and growing Australian Football in the Western Sydney Region and its surrounds, the state of NSW and the ACT.

The initial AFL marketing (aka bull****) sold the team as being a Western Sydney team, no mention of Canberra. That's what they were supposed to be, a Western Sydney team.

Now they have no idea what they want to be. As a resident of Western Sydney, I certainly don't regard them as fully representing the area.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Fair point and also agree that kids will get on board. My school aged children met Toby, Tom Green, “Giant” Preuss etc during the times they were here, and are Giants Recruits with Giants their AFL team.

But whilst people who are older and who followed another AFL team from childhood may not change immediately, over a 21 year generational timeframe there will be some movement? This is especially in the context of Giants being the only constant AFL team that plays locally, whose games are all televised free to air, and whose players are physically here at least 4-5 times for community meet and greets?

I guess time will tell.

Community visits are a nice touch, especially for young players, but for the bulk of AFL fans, it's regular season games that'll build support.

I think the Giants are good at engaging the participating community, but less so the purely spectator aspect of AFL supporters.

I've got a few early-20s team members at work, who would've all been 10-11 when the Giants started, and none of them go for the Giants. But none of them played footy, so that would track with the above.