Analysis Carlton list history & rebuilding comparisons

[HARKER]

It's not all lost though. Check out the 2006 Hawthorn list, Clarkson's second year.

List

Peter Everitt 31, Shane Crawford 31, John Barker 30
Joel Smith 28, Ben Dixon 28, Richard Vandenberg 28
Danny Jacobs 25, Chance Bateman 25, Trent Croad 25
Brent Guerra 24
Sam Mitchell 23, Tim Clarke 23, Michael Osborne 23, Nick Ries 23, Robert Campbell 23, Simon Taylor 23, Matthew Ball 23
Mark Williams 22, Ben Kane 22, Campbell Brown 22
Luke Hodge 21, Rick Ladson 21, Brad Sewell 21, Tim Boyle 21, Stephen Gilham 21
Harry Miller 20, Luke Brennan 20, Josh Thurgood 20, Ben McGlynn 20
Zac Dawson 19, Jordan Lewis 19, Thomas Murphy 19, Matt Little 19, Clinton Young 19, Max Bailey 19
Jarryd Roughead 18, Lance Franklin 18, Beau Muston 18, Travis Tuck 18, Luke McEntee 18,
Lukas Markovic 18, Beau Dowler 18
Xavier Ellis 17, Grant Birchall 17

2006 Ages 44 players 11 in, 10 out
9 x 18 or under, 6 x 19, 4 x 20, 5 x 21, 3 x 22, 7 x 23, 1 x 24, 3 x 25, 3 x 28, 3 x 30+

34 players out of 44 aged 23 and under. This is the wave we are creating under Docherty who turns 25 next year. The other 10 players for the Hawks had a club champion, decent mature ruck and some handy foot soliders but not a lot getting lost when they finally tip over the edge. Quite a few hit and miss players amongst the youth too. Just have to find the balance and the spark.

That's largely what I wanted to point out; Our best players are 24 or under and all being well, have plenty of years to play together, whilst we're still going to the draft and taking in the right types by way of trade/FA.

This year is crucial for what may follow. Should we:

1. Reel in one or two key players by way of trade
2. Have a honest netting via the draft.
3. Take on one or so FA's
4. Have a fairer injury strike rate.

Get some good results on those fronts and it's not unreasonable we may have ourselves a fair year, next year.
It's crucial we do and not finish too low, making us somewhat unappealing. Next 12 months may yet be the most critical for this rebuild.

 

[Doro]

Oh I agree. My opinion is that we could have gone somewhere with that list as the nucleus but we got nearly everything wrong and killed any chance.

Yep, keep Ratten sack Hughes/Rogers and the list management committee. Take two..

 

[footyfan1978]

Oh I agree. My opinion is that we could have gone somewhere with that list as the nucleus but we got everything wrong and killed any chance.

EFA

 

[footyfan1978]

Yep, keep Ratten sack Hughes/Rogers and the list management committee. Take two..

Pretty much, but the fact they replaced Ratten with Malthouse showed the thinking at board level was so out of touch with where we were. So even if list management had an actual strategy not sure it , on it's own is enough. I can't recall all on board now but hope well over half are gone now which think they are. I've not seen our club as united as this year from president to coach for decades.....Funny in a premiership year when they were united it cost both their jobs. Politics within our club has always been weird to follow and rarely dull. But I prefer what going on the football field to excite me, not the nonsense off field.

 

[footyfan1978]

Looking at thread title, I think differently to most on what we doing now. Since end of 2015 I see us virtually building a list (as distinct from a re-build) and the first time in the draft era for our club. It is why I always look at end of season 2015 as ground zero for mine. Re-building for mine is more renovations, re-generating etc on things that already exist that can be added to. In that sense 1991 to 1994 was a re-build of things we still had from our previous premiership team from 1987. At the time, draft era and salary cap still in early stages to take seriously. The national drafts were not really an open draft we have now of best kids in the land. Back then concessions for new clubs had many drafts have most of best talent already taken and the best of Tassie like a James Cook might go pick one in some drafts back then. When we traded to get Earl Spalding, then Greg Williams, draft mature age Andrew McKay, same with guys like Clape and Rice and then draft a teenage gun like Camporeale that was a re-build to go with SOS, Sticks, Peter Dean, Madden and the last of the youngsters from old zones system of Ratten, Kouta, Christou, Brown etc etc. As it was a mixture of different systems than exist now it very different era to re-build but we did do it successfully as we did in 1986. But really straight after 1995, apart from grabbing Hickmott from Geelong we never adjusted to the full salary cap and draft era and once all the Ratten, McKay and Kouta finished up we had no plan, no strategy and that played out to end of 2015 ground zero. We were not even above ground, we were below ground trying to recover from salary cap penalties and handed the digging tools to Hughes and Rogers. Please forgive them Lord, for they know not what they doing.....

 

[footyfan1978]

Just having a look up of our 1991 to mid 90's re-build. Only successful re-build since mid 80's before drafting and salary caps took over.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/clubs/carlton

The clear cut gains in bold.
It is not every player we drafted and traded for in that era but most of the important stuff we got right which is all you can hope for.
In charge of recruiting, not sure, Geoff Walsh ?

1991
Trade Ron De Iulio
Trade Earl Spalding
Trade Greg Williams

National Draft 18 Matthew Hogg

Mid-Season Draft 10 Brent Heaver

1992
National Draft 13 Andrew McKay
National Draft 43 Adrian Whitehead

Mid-Season Draft 6 Tony Lynn

1993
Trade Barry Mitchell

National Draft 18 Simon Beaumont

Pre-Season Draft 19 Dean Rice
Pre-Season Draft 32 Brad Pearce

1994

National Draft 15 Scott Camporeale

National Draft 79 Aaron Hamill

Pre-Season Draft 13 Matt Clape
Pre-Season Draft 27 Glenn Manton

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Just having a look up of our 1991 to mid 90's re-build. Only successful re-build since mid 80's before drafting and salary caps took over.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/clubs/carlton

The clear cut gains in bold.
It is not every player we drafted and traded for in that era but most of the important stuff we got right which is all you can hope for.
In charge of recruiting, not sure, Geoff Walsh ?

1991
Trade Ron De Iulio
Trade Earl Spalding
Trade Greg Williams

National Draft 18 Matthew Hogg

Mid-Season Draft 10 Brent Heaver

1992
National Draft 13 Andrew McKay
National Draft 43 Adrian Whitehead

Mid-Season Draft 6 Tony Lynn

1993
Trade Barry Mitchell

National Draft 18 Simon Beaumont

Pre-Season Draft 19 Dean Rice
Pre-Season Draft 32 Brad Pearce

1994

National Draft 15 Scott Camporeale

National Draft 79 Aaron Hamill

Pre-Season Draft 13 Matt Clape
Pre-Season Draft 27 Glenn Manton

Yeah, it was Geoff Walsh.

 

[Blue and Blue]

To think I was a Malthouse backer and even defended him early in the piece

I see it as we backed the club not Malthouse. As one does as a supporter. Malthouse was irelevant and it could have been anyone. At the same time it was Malthouse that exposed the flaws but then decided the job was too hard and did all he could to get sacked.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I see it as we backed the club not Malthouse. As one does as a supporter. Malthouse was irelevant and it could have been anyone. At the same time it was Malthouse that exposed the flaws but then decided the job was too hard and did all he could to get sacked.

I was most unhappy when we sacked Ratts for Malthouse but decided I had no choice but to back the club.

All teams have flaws so you recruit to eliminate them or develop a game plan to maximise your strengths. Malthouse created many of the flaws or at least exacerbated them unwittingly.

He realised he had stuffed it at the end of 2014 and set about trying to get an extension to start again. With no extension forthcoming, we had a bet each way in the draft/trade period that year.

Really, Mick did a Pagan. Let's try to implement what worked for me at North/Collingwood. You have to be a little more flexible than that.

 

[Blue and Blue]

I was most unhappy when we sacked Ratts for Malthouse but decided I had no choice but to back the club.

All teams have flaws so you recruit to eliminate them or develop a game plan to maximise your strengths. Malthouse created many of the flaws or at least exacerbated them unwittingly.

He realised he had stuffed it at the end of 2014 and set about trying to get an extension to start again. With no extension forthcoming, we had a bet each way in the draft/trade period that year.

Really, Mick did a Pagan. Let's try to implement what worked for me at North/Collingwood. You have to be a little more flexible than that.

Mostly I agree but I think Malthouse inherited as many problems as he created. We were never going to get to a flag with Ratten as far as I was concerned as much I loved him as a player. We were a soft apologetic team. All that deadwood had to go and SOS has almost done that.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

I see it as we backed the club not Malthouse. As one does as a supporter. Malthouse was irelevant and it could have been anyone. At the same time it was Malthouse that exposed the flaws but then decided the job was too hard and did all he could to get sacked.

Agree to some extent but I believed he was the man.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

That's largely what I wanted to point out; Our best players are 24 or under and all being well, have plenty of years to play together, whilst we're still going to the draft and taking in the right types by way of trade/FA.

This year is crucial for what may follow. Should we:

1. Reel in one or two key players by way of trade
2. Have a honest netting via the draft.
3. Take on one or so FA's
4. Have a fairer injury strike rate.

Get some good results on those fronts and it's not unreasonable we may have ourselves a fair year, next year.
It's crucial we do and not finish too low, making us somewhat unappealing. Next 12 months may yet be the most critical for this rebuild.

It's an important year no doubt but we have to remember as supporters that the rebuild is still under way and there won't be a magic wand waved and we're ready to challenge. We have to be patient! 6 wins will go along way to proving we are on the right path.

 

[mediumsizered]

I've been contemplating over this last week what our level of experience will look like at the start of the 2021 season. If, as a random figure, you add another 35 games over the next 2 seasons to the better players on our list, it looks something like this:
Byrne: 57 games
Cripps: 116
Charlie: 82
Docherty: 127
Dow: 55
Fisher: 69
Kennedy: 66
Marchbank: 70
McKay: 50
LOB: 53
SPS: 77
Plowman: 108
JSOS: 78
Weiters: 91
Williamson: 50

Still a bit light on in the 100+ game region, but overall I think this is the best experience/talent demographic we will have had for a long time. Probably dating back to the late '70s/early '80s.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I've been contemplating over this last week what our level of experience will look like at the start of the 2021 season. If, as a random figure, you add another 35 games over the next 2 seasons to the better players on our list, it looks something like this:
Byrne: 57 games
Cripps: 116
Charlie: 82
Docherty: 127
Dow: 55
Fisher: 69
Kennedy: 66
Marchbank: 70
McKay: 50
LOB: 53
SPS: 77
Plowman: 108
JSOS: 78
Weiters: 91
Williamson: 50

Still a bit light on in the 100+ game region, but overall I think this is the best experience/talent demographic we will have had for a long time. Probably dating back to the late '70s/early '80s.

We will add a few more experienced players over the next couple of years.

Look at the plethora of Hawks between 50 and 100 games in the 2008 GF. Look at the experience level of Clarkson as a coach.

 

[mediumsizered]

Certainly some similarities there. This sort of confirms that the 2008 premiership came sooner than they would have expected & why they were able to stay competitive for so long (a few handy trades/FAs didn't hurt matters either).

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

It's funny looking at that team. Their next flag came just five years later and only had 9 of the same players in the side and the last of the three peat only has 6.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Aaron Hamill at the end of 2000 was the first I recall. Man, were we dirty on him.

Wanted more money.
Had a number of players ahead of him though ... Kouta, SOS, Ratten, Matty Allen, Fraser Brown, Whitnall, Sexton, Camporeale, Lappin ...

FWIW, the rot started with Greg Williams and Kernahan playing the one-season-too-many.

 

[Azzurro]

We will add a few more experienced players over the next couple of years.

Look at the plethora of Hawks between 50 and 100 games in the 2008 GF. Look at the experience level of Clarkson as a coach.

View attachment 556152

Great point ODN...

Amazing when I think back to 2008, and we recall how dominant Franklin and Roughead were for them. At the time I couldn’t believe such young kids could have such an impact - looking back, they were nearly 22! Makes Charlie and Harry look all the more dangerous when I think about it like that, given that they are playing mostly men with boys younger than them as the supporting cast.

Even though I am very realistic about where we are, that is still some welcome perspective. It would be nice if other supporters could absorb this bit of info just as well...

 

[Gethelred]

I would wager a bet there would be a lot more posters than just us cobber. It feels good to own up to one's mistakes.

same here mate. drank the mick kool aid as badly as anybody.

shouldve been clear when we lost eddie jeffy etc for peanuts

I wasn't on here back then, but I was absolutely willing to commit to Malthouse's style and method. I had misgivings, but then I've got those about Bolts, too. I thought he'd work to rebuild our lineup, because I knew we couldn't play the way he wanted us to play; I thought it wouldn't work. Either he'd find for us the right cattle, or he'd build us up to find the right cattle. Turns out, I didn't know s**t.

Don't worry too much. Everyone's wrong, more often than they're not, and I'll admit I was too when it comes to Mick Malthouse, a person unwilling to admit that he's done. The Collingwood crew - Didak, Pendlebury, Swan, Davis, O'Brien, Shaw (both of them), Ball, Jolly; these blokes committed 100% to him, to his plan and his style of play. He never got that from us.

Was the worst possible decision we could make. Discarded a coach the boys loved, for a coach that was his anathema.

Not much use lamenting Ratten for Malthouse, though, beyond ensuring that we learn the lessons that they two teach to us. Refuse, with the force of the heavens, quick fixes and easy solutions; ignore the quick approaches and the reactive response. Wait and watch and condemn us to ensure that we are following the right path, and * those who fail to watch and realise that (even if we fail) a genuine full rebuild is the only route to success in the modern era.

 

[Juddernaut08]

I wasn't on here back then, but I was absolutely willing to commit to Malthouse's style and method. I had misgivings, but then I've got those about Bolts, too. I thought he'd work to rebuild our lineup, because I knew we couldn't play the way he wanted us to play; I thought it wouldn't work. Either he'd find for us the right cattle, or he'd build us up to find the right cattle. Turns out, I didn't know s**t.

Don't worry too much. Everyone's wrong, more often than they're not, and I'll admit I was too when it comes to Mick Malthouse, a person unwilling to admit that he's done. The Collingwood crew - Didak, Pendlebury, Swan, Davis, O'Brien, Shaw (both of them), Ball, Jolly; these blokes committed 100% to him, to his plan and his style of play. He never got that from us.

Was the worst possible decision we could make. Discarded a coach the boys loved, for a coach that was his anathema.

Not much use lamenting Ratten for Malthouse, though, beyond ensuring that we learn the lessons that they two teach to us. Refuse, with the force of the heavens, quick fixes and easy solutions; ignore the quick approaches and the reactive response. Wait and watch and condemn us to ensure that we are following the right path, and **** those who fail to watch and realise that (even if we fail) a genuine full rebuild is the only route to success in the modern era.

Love the post, true and passionate reflection...but I think you mean antithesis, not anathema

 

[Gethelred]

Love the post, true and passionate reflection...but I think you mean antithesis, not anathema

Half a bottle of scotch in, I think you'll forgive me.

 

[thylacine60]

sheez, pedantic pedantry is pedantic.............

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

Half a bottle of scotch in, I think you'll forgive me.

Nice work G. Monday is as good a day as any for half a bottle! Love your posts always passionate and honest. Respect.

 

[thylacine60]

cheers, batty......

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

Look your posts are good too, now sit still and I'll give you a pat..