Carlton player Liam Jones refusing vax - Update: Jones retires from AFL

[theyellowsash]

Yay, teachers!!


(I'm book-marking this page of the thread for when I ever need some positive reinforcement)

haha, come to me any day. teachers are some of if not the most underappreciated people in our society and are the most important people after the emergency services to a functioning society. you could argue theyre the most important, because theres no doctors if theres noone to teach them. its been proven time and time again that teaching and education is far more important and effective in crime rehab (especially in young people) than simply locking them up and telling them not to do it again. teaching literally changes and saves lives.

severely underpaid too.

 

[Gruffles]

haha, come to me any day. teachers are some of if not the most underappreciated people in our society and are the most important people after the emergency services to a functioning society. you could argue theyre the most important, because theres no doctors if theres noone to teach them. its been proven time and time again that teaching and education is far more important and effective in crime rehab (especially in young people) than simply locking them up and telling them not to do it again. teaching literally changes and saves lives.

severely underpaid too.

 

[HTT]

What's your definition of a gene therapy treatment?

The name sounds like DNA, must be the same thing

 

[deck]

also theres the massive hole that SA is reporting 0 people in icu, so im not sure where those figures are coming from. But even assuming theyre correct, unvaxxed are still over-represented. SA is at 86% vaccination, meaning 14% are unvaccinated, yet 21% of people in icu are unvaccinated.

The most SA has had in ICU due to covid was 10 people back in April last year. Since may last year they have had no more the 1 person in ICU at a time and only 4 or 5 people overall in ICU.

 

[bing181]

Yes I do, im simply sharing my doubts and there perspectives. What poll; she was merely giving an estimate - this lady thinks its far more:



Thanks I always wanted to be one.

Spreading these lies isn't just foolish and irresponsible, it's dangerous.

 

[madmug]

Spreading these lies isn't just foolish and irresponsible, it's dangerous.

Interesting that a brief look at various research reports show vaccine caused Myocarditis events are quite rare, up to 10.69/100000 in 16-29yo in one report. Less in others. Such events are reported as being mild to moderate. Most are temporary.

Indeed one study says you are 4x more likely to get Myocarditis from an actual Covid19 infection if you are unvaccinated, than from the vaccine!!!

Anyway,

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Yes I do, im simply sharing my doubts and there perspectives. What poll; she was merely giving an estimate - this lady thinks its far more:



Thanks I always wanted to be one.

Well that is completely inaccurate!

Most covid cases in ICU were unvaccinated, because hardly anyone in SA was vaccinated when most cases occurred.

Why bother posting pure BS!

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

The 'argument' is that the 30 out of 38 in ICU are because of vaccinations.

Well that is incorrect too!

Made up BS!

 

[SBYM]

FMD...some of you campaigners are carrying on like pork chops.

It's embarrassing. I feel embarrassed for you and for anyone you know.

 

[Forward Press]

haha, come to me any day. teachers are some of if not the most underappreciated people in our society and are the most important people after the emergency services to a functioning society. you could argue theyre the most important, because theres no doctors if theres noone to teach them. its been proven time and time again that teaching and education is far more important and effective in crime rehab (especially in young people) than simply locking them up and telling them not to do it again. teaching literally changes and saves lives.

severely underpaid too.

Is now the time to say I'm a teacher?

 

[kingswood71]

That paper has been posted and discussed a few times already in here so I really don't have the energy to dive back into that. In any case, 25% is less than 38%. In 1 million people that represents a difference of 130,000 people. There's also been a study posted (earlier in this thread) that shows that viral loads tend to drop faster in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individuals, which would point to a shorter infectious period in those people.

I read it ....And the supp appendix.
They say in their limitations: "First, we recruited onlycontacts of symptomatic index cases as our study recruitment is derived from routine contact-tracing notifications. Second, index cases were defined as the first household member to have a PCR-positive swab, but we cannot exclude the possibility that another household member might already have been infected and transmitted to the index case". That is an important limitation given the majority of all cases were mild or asymptomatic. If the index cases wasnt actually the index case, it changes the study.
A limitation they didnt mention but i can think of that is relevant, is what determines what a household contact is for the purpose of the study....There would be a difference between someone staying at home 24/7 with the index case as opposed to someone been at work all day, coming home and going to a different bedroom 4 hours later.
Interestingly they conclude "Increasing population immunity via booster programmes and vaccination of teenagers will help to increase the currently limited effect of vaccination on transmission".

 

[Jibroni]

Spreading these lies isn't just foolish and irresponsible, it's dangerous.

I didnt say she was speaking truth.

 

[Gruffles]

I didnt say she was speaking truth.

Then why give it airtime?

 

[Gruffles]

Is now the time to say I'm a teacher?

Get in on the love fest while you can!!

 

[Jibroni]

Then why give it airtime?

As the other poster was challenging my view on the amount of doctor/nurse resignations, we should know what the official numbers are and accurately. I have yet to see this reported hence my estimation.

Similarly if many (or few teachers) were to resign as a result of this mandate it should be known and what their concerns are. Particularly as I have yet to see any evidence or reporting of the effects/transfer of Delta on/from children at school.

 

[kingswood71]

As the other poster was challenging my view on the amount of doctor/nurse resignations, we should know what the official numbers are and accurately. I have yet to see this reported hence my estimation.

Similarly if many (or few teachers) were to resign as a result of this mandate it should be known and what their concerns are. Particularly as I have yet to see any evidence or reporting of the effects/transfer of Delta on/from children at school.

COVID-19 Delta variant in schools and early childhood education and care services in NSW, Australia: 16 June to 31 July 2021

Most children diagnosed with COVID-19 during the current outbreak, including those who caught the infection in educational settings, experienced mild or no symptoms, with only 2% requiring hospitalisation, the latest report from the National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance...

ncirs.org.au

 

[Gruffles]

As the other poster was challenging my view on the amount of doctor/nurse resignations, we should know what the official numbers are and accurately. I have yet to see this reported hence my estimation.

But does giving airtime to people making unsubstantiated claims add any value to the discussion? I mean, I could film myself saying '0 teachers that I know have refused getting a vaccination' in a dramatic and emotional tone and post it on telegram. I wouldn't be lying as I don't know any teachers who have left work, meaning they'd have refused the vaccine.

How do you think those that share an anti-covid vaccine view would take my video?

Similarly if many (or few teachers) were to resign as a result of this mandate it should be known and what their concerns are. Particularly as I have yet to see any evidence or reporting of the effects/transfer of Delta on/from children at school.

Can I ask why the focus seems to always only be on transmission? What about the idea of reducing the chances of teachers getting severe symptoms from a possible infection and not being able to teach, impacting the students learning?

Also the mandate has been in place for some time in Victoria and I honestly know of 0 teachers who have left the industry. I'm certain there would be for whatever reason, but the numbers would be few rather than many.

 

[BlueE]

Here is the full paragraph for those that are short of time or not inclined to click on a link:
Currently, mRNA is considered a gene therapy product by the FDA. Unlike certain gene therapies that irreversibly alter cell DNA and could act as a source of side effects, mRNA-based medicines are designed to not irreversibly change cell DNA; however, side effects observed in gene therapy could negatively impact the perception of mRNA medicines despite the differences in mechanism. In addition, because no product in which mRNA is the primary active ingredient has been approved, the regulatory pathway for approval is uncertain. The number and design of the clinical trials and preclinical studies required for the approval of these types of medicines have not been established, may be different from those required for gene therapy products, or may require safety testing like gene therapy products. Moreover, the length of time necessary to complete clinical trials and to submit an application for marketing approval for a final decision by a regulatory authority varies significantly from one pharmaceutical product to the next, and may be difficult to predict.

Just as an addition, both documents also contain the following statement as one of the challenges they may face:
safety or efficacy concerns regarding our product candidates may result from any concerns arising from nonclinical or clinical testing of other therapies targeting a similar disease state or other therapies, such as gene therapy, that are perceived as similar to ours

For those playing at home, I encourage you to read these and make your own interpretation of what is being said here rather than basing your understanding on one sentence.

And the point you were arguing that the German head of Bayer said wasn't saying the RNA vaccines were gene therapy, because someone with English as their second language said "for" instead of "of", was wrong. He further clarified that if people knew that mRNA vaccines were gene therapy most wouldn't accept the vaccine.

In their own written words both Pfizer and Moderna admit their mRNA products are gene therapy, and considered to be so by the FDA.

Do we have disagreement on what gene therapy is?

As you've pointed out above, they also make clear there has been no approval for mRNA medicines before and they accurately predict their preclinical and clinical trials may be approved on different criteria that has been established for gene therapy products, which means many requirements like reproductive toxicity, ADE studies were not completed.

Both Pfizer and Moderna's own documents make it clear "No mRNA drug has been approved in this new potential class of medicines, and may never be approved as a result of efforts by others or us. mRNA drug development has substantial clinical development and regulatory risks due to the novel and unprecedented nature of this new class of medicines."

Regulatory requirements governing gene and cell therapy products have evolved and may continue to change in the future, and the implications for mRNA-based therapies are unknown.

Even if we obtain regulatory approval for an investigational medicine, including mRNA-1273 (Moderna), our products will remain subject to regulatory scrutiny. For example, the holder of an approved BLA is obligated to monitor and report adverse events and any failure of a product to meet the specifications in the BLA.

 

[RJKTiger]

Empathy. Its a forgotten virtue.

I am double vaxxed, but not really interested in the political side of it which has helped divide a divided community even more than ever before. I support vaccines as a general rule - however I think people should have a right to make choices about their own bodies based on personal belief systems, religions etc.

I am just sad for the guy. It would have been a terribly hard decision to make, effectively giving up your dream job, passing up at least a $1,000,000 in salary - but also to publicly have to announce to everyone the reason why, knowing your going to be ridiculed, abused etc.There are no winners here.

He has made a choice and it would have been the hardest one he has ever made in his life. The outcome is not a win for him at all, no need to be assholes about it - just respect the decision and move on. Best of luck to him

 

[BlueE]

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise giving someone credit for admitting that they'd been lazy (your own words) in their wording, which could pretty easily lead to misrepresenting what had actually happened was some kind of superiority or point scoring play. It's OK to admit that you made a mistake and it's OK for me to give you credit for that.

You described their licensing agreement as a "magnanimous gesture" of giving away their formula. They entered a licensing agreement... that's very different to giving it away. But it's OK. We've established that now. I won't give you kudos for it seeing as you don't seem to like kudos.

Aurobindo and MSN are continuing to conduct studies of molnupiravir in patients with mild COVID-19 who have not been hospitalized, according to trial documents and the website of the Indian drug regulator's internal expert committee. (taken from your own quoted Reuters article). Why would they continue the trial on mild covid cases if they were so concerned about safety. The trial on moderate cases ceased because it just wasn't working very well.

Just on this point, and once again taken from the Reuters article:
Merck spokesperson Melissa Moody said Merck and the Indian companies had defined “moderate” disease differently.
Merck's trials are based on U.S. Food and Drug Administration definitions, which for moderate COVID-19 describe blood oxygen levels as no lower than 93%. It defines blood oxygen levels for severe COVID-19 as 93% or lower.
The trials in India define moderate COVID-19 blood oxygen levels as 90% to 93%, according to the trial documents for the two companies.

So there is an explanation as to why Merck and the Indian company had different outcomes.

In any case, this conversation is going nowhere fast and I'm sure others in the thread are getting sick of it. It will be clear to anyone reading this conversation that your conclusions are all based on your own speculation rather than anything else. People can choose to accept your speculation if they like, or people can choose to take what has been reported on face value. I choose the latter.

You've picked a strange soapbox to stand on, and I'm not here for big noteing or kudos. The same endpoint was India got to manufacturer a new, supposedly effective drug from Merck! I was being sarcastic with the "magnanimous gesture" becasue Merck's red pill seems to be a lemon, at best ineffective for moderate and hospitilsated patients and at worst having safety concerns, so paying for that without Merck disclosing or disguising results, makes it worse.

I am aware of their argument about how "moderate" disease is defined, but is convenient way for Merck disguise efficacy, when other countries would not accept that definition. Merck already said their product was only around 50% effective, so if it is only that for mild patients as a low dose that doesn't cause safety concerns questions would have to be asked about the risk and the reward of using it.

Merck dropped out of vaccine trial early, but if Pfizer and Moderna wanted to help third world countries manufacture cheap mRNA vaccines for distribution to their population they would have allowed those competent developers in poor countries access to their product, but they didn't. AZ did with India, as they did to Australia.

Everyone is speculating, including you, unless there are original documents to regulatory authorities, published, peer reviewed long-term randomised double blinded placebo-controlled clinical trials. This is applicable to Australia since we seem to have bought bucket loads of Merck's red pill, and have to rely on overseas trials for safety and effectiveness!

 

[BlueE]

"Among the 344 unapproved agents, the clinical development for 195 (57%) failed for lack of efficacy"
"In this study of investigational drugs entering late-stage clinical development between 1998 and 2008 with follow-up through 2015, we found about half of the experimental medicines failed during or after pivotal clinical trials. Most of these development failures were attributable to inadequate evidence of efficacy"

Publication of Drug Failures in Late-Stage Clinical Development

This study assesses factors associated with regulatory approval or reasons for failure of investigational therapeutics in phase 3 or pivotal trials and rates of publication of trial results.

jamanetwork.com

I was asking abut COVID trials, but I can't see any trials stopped for not being statically "significantly effective" unless they were commercially unable to be produced.

Conclusions and Relevance Roughly half of investigational drugs entering late-stage clinical development fail during or after pivotal clinical trials, primarily because of concerns about safety, efficacy, or both. Results for the majority of studies of investigational drugs that fail are not published in peer-reviewed journals.

 

[JackOutback]

Empathy. Its a forgotten virtue.

I am double vaxxed, but not really interested in the political side of it which has helped divide a divided community even more than ever before. I support vaccines as a general rule - however I think people should have a right to make choices about their own bodies based on personal belief systems, religions etc.

I am just sad for the guy. It would have been a terribly hard decision to make, effectively giving up your dream job, passing up at least a $1,000,000 in salary - but also to publicly have to announce to everyone the reason why, knowing your going to be ridiculed, abused etc.There are no winners here.

He has made a choice and it would have been the hardest one he has ever made in his life. The outcome is not a win for him at all, no need to be assholes about it - just respect the decision and move on. Best of luck to him

Not all opinions are equal and not all opinions are worthy of respect. This decision is born out of ignorance and an arrogance that his ‘research’ is superior that of this nation’s medical experts. It’s not worth respect; pity, perhaps. Yes, it’s a shame that his decision is known by significantly more people than a cop that walks off the job for the same reason, but at the same time, no one is going to remember or care in a couple of weeks. If I were him, I’d be more concerned by the large number of friends, family and teammates who also likely think he’s a bit of a dill.

 

[bing181]

however I think people should have a right to make choices about their own bodies based on personal belief systems

If everyone in Australia took that approach and decided not to get vaccinated and to ignore public health guidelines, the public health system would collapse and we'd have refrigerated trucks parked outside hospitals.

It's a personal choice with public consequences, thus the regulations and mandates, as in all instances where there is a risk to the wider public. In his case, it's doubly irresponsible because he's a public figure, and the publicity this generates only fuels anti-vax conspiracies, and all the consequences that flow on from that. I don't live in Australia, but even where I am people are using this as fuel for their anti-vax fire.

 

[Roby]

And the point you were arguing that the German head of Bayer said wasn't saying the RNA vaccines were gene therapy, because someone with English as their second language said "for" instead of "of", was wrong. He further clarified that if people knew that mRNA vaccines were gene therapy most wouldn't accept the vaccine.

In their own written words both Pfizer and Moderna admit their mRNA products are gene therapy, and considered to be so by the FDA.

Do we have disagreement on what gene therapy is?

As you've pointed out above, they also make clear there has been no approval for mRNA medicines before and they accurately predict their preclinical and clinical trials may be approved on different criteria that has been established for gene therapy products, which means many requirements like reproductive toxicity, ADE studies were not completed.

Both Pfizer and Moderna's own documents make it clear "No mRNA drug has been approved in this new potential class of medicines, and may never be approved as a result of efforts by others or us. mRNA drug development has substantial clinical development and regulatory risks due to the novel and unprecedented nature of this new class of medicines."

Regulatory requirements governing gene and cell therapy products have evolved and may continue to change in the future, and the implications for mRNA-based therapies are unknown.

Even if we obtain regulatory approval for an investigational medicine, including mRNA-1273 (Moderna), our products will remain subject to regulatory scrutiny. For example, the holder of an approved BLA is obligated to monitor and report adverse events and any failure of a product to meet the specifications in the BLA.

It's not gene therapy give it up.

 

[Gruffles]

Everyone is speculating!

Excellent! Thanks for agreeing with me.

The initial point was regarding you stating that the trial stopped for safety reasons. I'm glad we've now established that statement was speculation, and not factual in any way. It really seems like this didn't need to drag on so long.

Now we can put this line of conversation to rest. Phew!