Carlton player Liam Jones refusing vax - Update: Jones retires from AFL

[The Cryptkeeper]

4 October, 2021

A new study from the University of California, Davis, Genome Center, UC San Francisco and the Chan Zuckerberg Biohub shows no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive for the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2. It also found no significant difference between infected people with or without symptoms.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

Links only the very few studies/articles/comments that collaborate his conspiracy theory. Check.
Disregards the literally tens of thousands of same that disprove his nonsense. Check.

 

[Gruffles]

haha my writing and grammar skills are actually one of my strengths, when i can be bothered

I'll add that to the list of student reasons why "I didn't do as well as I would normally have done".

 

[Jibroni]

Not personal at all. I'm fine with education being one of the industries mandated to get vaccinated. I see it slightly differently in terms of why healthcare workers should be vaccinated as part of their role in treating vulnerable patients.

From my perspective, having children attending school rather than staying home is integral to keeping the state operating as close to "open" as possible. Keeping teachers as protected as possible from covid infection or serious illness is integral in keeping schools open. Coupled with that is the serious limitations in large scale remote learning (teaching Science without being able to do any practical experiments was just horrendous), and doing this for an extended period of time would have significant impact on a student's overall understanding.

So, essentially, vaccinating teachers allows schools to remain open, which supports the best learning environment for the students and the State's ability to get closer to opening up, as parents do not need to supervise their children all day and can concentrate on their employment.

I see the value and importance in mandating vaccination of teachers, I don't really see the value and importance in mandating vaccination of retail staff. Outside of the industries I think are important to mandate, I think we'd reach our vaccine targets without mandating other industries.

EDIT - just to add here, I was vaccinated when it was recommended that teachers be vaccinated (meaning we then had access to it), which was before they made it a mandate. To add to this, I was actually surprised that it took them that long to recommend it and then even longer to mandate it because I saw schools reopening as a high priority in moving forward.

Thanks for the reply and I agree that other industries should not be mandating this; and for the record I work in the Federal Government. The idea of schools being in lockdown (particularly so close to end of year) would be a disaster for families and the community. I have never been anti vax (have received one dose) just anti-mandation. I have looked into a recent UK study and effect of the current Vaccines on the Delta strain between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated peoples:

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study - The Lancet Infectious Diseases


In short it summarises that 25% (95% for 18–33) of fully vaccinated individuals and with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals can still contract the Delta Variant. It has no data in relating to transmission between the two but I imagine the more we discover this data will be revealed.

 

[Sainter1873]

Thanks for the reply and I agree that other industries should not be mandating this; and for the record I work in the Federal Government. The idea of schools being in lockdown (particularly so close to end of year) would be a disaster for families and the community. I have never been anti vax (have received one dose) just anti-mandation. I have looked into a recent UK study and effect of the current Vaccines on the Delta strain between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated peoples:

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study - The Lancet Infectious Diseases


In short it summarises that 25% (95% for 18–33) of fully vaccinated individuals and with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals can still contract the Delta Variant. It has no data in relating to transmission between the two but I imagine the more we discover this data will be revealed.

These figures are for household contacts. Regardless, I’m not sure what your point is here. Fully-vaccinated people are still susceptible to breakthrough infections. Vaccines just reduce the likelihood of them.

 

[Jibroni]

You seem to personally know quite a few anti-vax people, whether it be your cousin in the SA Health system who has conducted a rigorous scientific poll of all SA Health workers and their opinions on vaccine mandates or your German neighbour who no doubt has conducted a similar poll of attitudes in the education sector. You should be a journalist with all those great sources.

Yes I do, im simply sharing my doubts and there perspectives. What poll; she was merely giving an estimate - this lady thinks its far more:



Thanks I always wanted to be one.

 

[theyellowsash]

I'll add that to the list of student reasons why "I didn't do as well as I would normally have done".

haha i'm surprised you haven't heard 'i couldnt be bothered' before. i went to school with plenty of people who would have said that, i probably did myself

 

[Forward Press]

Yes I do, im simply sharing my doubts and there perspectives. What poll; she was merely giving an estimate - this lady thinks its far more:



Thanks I always wanted to be one.

You cannot seriously believe this, surely. It's a massive failure in critical thinking from the 'Concerned Citizen', hopefully you didn't go down that rabbithole of misinformation and lack of basic logic.

 

[Chief]

What poll; she was merely giving an estimate - this lady thinks its far more:

South Australia doesn't have any Covid cases in ICU according to the SA Health web site.


Patients in hospital 0
Patients in ICU 0

COVID-19 dashboard | SA Health

Statistical information and maps about the occurrence of cases of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in South Australia

www.sahealth.sa.gov.au

 

[theyellowsash]

Yes I do, im simply sharing my doubts and there perspectives. What poll; she was merely giving an estimate - this lady thinks its far more:



Thanks I always wanted to be one.

you can pretty much discount that based on the extremist language alone. most hospitalisations are 'vaccine injured', myocarditis 'raging' amongst vaccinated, massive government coverup. thats not the language of someone coming in with an unbiased agenda.

also theres the massive hole that SA is reporting 0 people in icu, so im not sure where those figures are coming from. But even assuming theyre correct, unvaxxed are still over-represented. SA is at 86% vaccination, meaning 14% are unvaccinated, yet 21% of people in icu are unvaccinated.

that also ignores the fact that if we were at 100% vaccination and a single person goes to icu with covid, then 100% of people in icu are vaccinated. thats not an argument that the vaccine isnt working.

 

[Gruffles]

Thanks for the reply and I agree that other industries should not be mandating this; and for the record I work in the Federal Government. The idea of schools being in lockdown (particularly so close to end of year) would be a disaster for families and the community. I have never been anti vax (have received one dose) just anti-mandation. I have looked into a recent UK study and effect of the current Vaccines on the Delta strain between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated peoples:

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study - The Lancet Infectious Diseases


In short it summarises that 25% (95% for 18–33) of fully vaccinated individuals and with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals can still contract the Delta Variant. It has no data in relating to transmission between the two but I imagine the more we discover this data will be revealed.

That paper has been posted and discussed a few times already in here so I really don't have the energy to dive back into that. In any case, 25% is less than 38%. In 1 million people that represents a difference of 130,000 people. There's also been a study posted (earlier in this thread) that shows that viral loads tend to drop faster in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individuals, which would point to a shorter infectious period in those people.

 

[Forward Press]

you can pretty much discount that based on the extremist language alone. most hospitalisations are 'vaccine injured', myocarditis 'raging' amongst vaccinated, massive government coverup. thats not the language of someone coming in with an unbiased agenda.

also theres the massive hole that SA is reporting 0 people in icu, so im not sure where those figures are coming from. But even assuming theyre correct, unvaxxed are still over-represented. SA is at 86% vaccination, meaning 14% are unvaccinated, yet 21% of people in icu are unvaccinated.

that also ignores the fact that if we were at 100% vaccination and a single person goes to icu with covid, then 100% of people in icu are vaccinated. thats not an argument that the vaccine isnt working.

The 'argument' is that the 30 out of 38 in ICU are because of vaccinations.

 

[MisterMarcus]

South Australia doesn't have any Covid cases in ICU according to the SA Health web site.


Patients in hospital 0
Patients in ICU 0

COVID-19 dashboard | SA Health

Statistical information and maps about the occurrence of cases of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in South Australia

www.sahealth.sa.gov.au

"The coverup goes deeper than we thought!!! "

 

[theyellowsash]

Thanks for the reply and I agree that other industries should not be mandating this; and for the record I work in the Federal Government. The idea of schools being in lockdown (particularly so close to end of year) would be a disaster for families and the community. I have never been anti vax (have received one dose) just anti-mandation. I have looked into a recent UK study and effect of the current Vaccines on the Delta strain between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated peoples:

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study - The Lancet Infectious Diseases


In short it summarises that 25% (95% for 18–33) of fully vaccinated individuals and with 38% (24–53) in unvaccinated individuals can still contract the Delta Variant. It has no data in relating to transmission between the two but I imagine the more we discover this data will be revealed.

That paper has been posted and discussed a few times already in here so I really don't have the energy to dive back into that. In any case, 25% is less than 38%. In 1 million people that represents a difference of 130,000 people. There's also been a study posted (earlier in this thread) that shows that viral loads tend to drop faster in vaccinated individuals compared to unvaccinated individuals, which would point to a shorter infectious period in those people.

the paper also qualifies that this was a sample of household contact only, where people will still be in close contact during the significantly shorter viral load peak time, thus somewhat negating the effect on reducing the peak viral load duration which would be much more effective at reducing fleeting transmission in public settings. it's also stated that vaccine status is mixed generally, which they admit could skew the data.

what this study does show is that even in the absolute worst case scenario of mixed vaccination and densely living families, the claim that the vaccination does not reduce transmission is undeniably false, and you could legitimately state that anyone who is claiming so at this point is deliberately lying. In fact, in these bad conditions it still resulted in a 34% reduction in transmission, a pretty damn good result if you ask me. Across the entire population, that could very well be enough to get the infection rate below 1 meaning the virus slowly disappears, only causing the odd small and localised outbreak here and there, and bang theres your herd immunity working.

 

[madmug]

We're still in the exit-phase of this pandemic. We don't really know yet what the pressures on the health system will be like over the next 6 - 12 months.


Some more awareness of staying home when unwell and such might come from this, which isn't the worst outcome.

The problem with 'stay home' is some people don't have well paid jobs with sick leave & other entitlements. Its work or don't pay the rent/buy food etc.

The only answer is payment to cover covid +ve people who have no entitlements.

Better still, less people used by greedy companies under a Federal Government who don't care about the realities of many people's existence. That would help.

 

[theyellowsash]

The problem with 'stay home' is some people don't have well paid jobs with sick leave & other entitlements. Its work or don't pay the rent/buy food etc.

The only answer is payment to cover covid +ve people who have no entitlements.

Better still, less people used by greedy companies under a Federal Government who don't care about the realities of many people's existence. That would help.

sick and annual leave should be part of casual/short term contracts. its a joke that its not. it makes some vague sense for things like hospitality (though still noone should be forced to give up a day of their wage because they are sick, or work sick). but nowadays full time office staff are being put on casual contracts (trust me, i know), and single individual office workers have no power to stand up against local, national or even international businesses to demand a proper full time contract.

the only people peddling casual/contractor work arrangements are the george colambarus types who just want to take advantage of their workers.

 

[10571z]

you can pretty much discount that based on the extremist language alone. most hospitalisations are 'vaccine injured', myocarditis 'raging' amongst vaccinated, massive government coverup. thats not the language of someone coming in with an unbiased agenda.

also theres the massive hole that SA is reporting 0 people in icu, so im not sure where those figures are coming from. But even assuming theyre correct, unvaxxed are still over-represented. SA is at 86% vaccination, meaning 14% are unvaccinated, yet 21% of people in icu are unvaccinated.

that also ignores the fact that if we were at 100% vaccination and a single person goes to icu with covid, then 100% of people in icu are vaccinated. thats not an argument that the vaccine isnt working.

Its very strange. I know literally 200 people who have been vaccinated through sport and work and not one had a terribly bad reaction. On the other hand every anti vaxers social circles are dropping dead and having heart issues in hospitals.

 

[JackOutback]

Not to be personal but may I ask what your view is on the mandation of teachers requiring vaccination? My neighbour is a German teacher who does not want to be vaccinated and is taking legal action as it was announced yesterday in Adelaide that all teachers require vaccination.

I have said previously that I am against people being coerced into a COVID vaccination against their will and deserve the freedom to choose their own medical treatment/way of life.

But it's not just about them, is it? Children have been increasingly susceptible to the Delta variant of COVID, no one knows what the long-term side effects of COVID will be in young children, not all children can access the vaccine. A mandate for teachers is a simple question; if they don't want to be vaccinated, fine, but they no longer get to stand in front of 30 children and put them at risk. That's just selfish.

 

[deck]

South Australia doesn't have any Covid cases in ICU according to the SA Health web site.


Patients in hospital 0
Patients in ICU 0

COVID-19 dashboard | SA Health

Statistical information and maps about the occurrence of cases of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in South Australia

www.sahealth.sa.gov.au

They have only had 920 cases in the whole state since the pandemic started.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[Toump Ass]

A mandate for teachers is a simple question; if they don't want to be vaccinated, fine, but they no longer get to stand in front of 30 children and put them at risk. That's just selfish.

Totally agree.

And FWIW, a full-time secondary school teacher could see up to 300 students during a week.

 

[Forward Press]

Totally agree.

And FWIW, a full-time secondary school teacher could see up to 300 students during a week.

They also don't just clock in at a classroom at the start of the day and then have their lunch there and leave from there at hometime.

Schools will typically have 1 adult (teacher, support staff, administration etc) for every 10 students or so and they all interact with each other outside of the classroom. Teachers and school staff should definitely be classified as frontline.

 

[theyellowsash]

They also don't just clock in at a classroom at the start of the day and then have their lunch there and leave from there at hometime.

Schools will typically have 1 adult (teacher, support staff, administration etc) for every 10 students or so and they all interact with each other.

Yeah that whole 'you only work till 3 and get extra holidays' stuff is total bullshit spoken by people whove never met a teacher

 

[Sainter1873]

you can pretty much discount that based on the extremist language alone. most hospitalisations are 'vaccine injured', myocarditis 'raging' amongst vaccinated, massive government coverup. thats not the language of someone coming in with an unbiased agenda.

also theres the massive hole that SA is reporting 0 people in icu, so im not sure where those figures are coming from. But even assuming theyre correct, unvaxxed are still over-represented. SA is at 86% vaccination, meaning 14% are unvaccinated, yet 21% of people in icu are unvaccinated.

that also ignores the fact that if we were at 100% vaccination and a single person goes to icu with covid, then 100% of people in icu are vaccinated. thats not an argument that the vaccine isnt working.

What I love is that Jibroni can quote from a study published in the Lancet and then in the next post quote from Concerned Citizens Australia.

 

[Foxman98]

What I love is that Jibroni can quote from a study published in the Lancet and then in the next post quote from Concerned Citizens Australia.

And then pretend they are both equally valid

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Its very strange. I know literally 200 people who have been vaccinated through sport and work and not one had a terribly bad reaction. On the other hand every anti vaxers social circles are dropping dead and having heart issues in hospitals.

Amazing isn't it?

Truly astonishing.

 

[Gruffles]

Yay, teachers!!


(I'm book-marking this page of the thread for when I ever need some positive reinforcement)