Discussion Carlton v England, 1888

[The_Wookie]

I was doing some research for another project when I happened across the Argus report of a game between England and Carlton dated June 18th, 1888. The report is fascinating for a number of reasons so I thought Id go through it.

The Match report tells us this was the debut of the Englishmen under Australian rules - the Rules is not capitalised - and that the largest crowd of the season was at the venue, estimated at 26,000. It makes no mention of how many got in for free. The writer for the Argus wrote:

"the Englishmen who stood out of the match declared that they had never seen so great a gathering at a match in England"

England won the toss, and the Argus reports that the game started with a kick-off. Not something typically seen in Australian Football for many a year. Behinds were scored, and the writer says that the English were having a very good go, and trying not to fall back into rugby rules. Evidently the marking and passing of the Carlton team was somewhat confusing to the English players.

"The visitors were most puzzled by the marking of the Carlton men, and the style in which they played to each other, for the colonials not being very closely watched were able to give a very pretty exposition of those two most attractive points in the Australian game"

​

The Article makes note of place kicks - again not seen for some time in Australian football, as well as drop kicks and long kicks. The author noted that the English "at present they lack perfection in drop kicking, and made no attempt at marking from long kicks".

​

The game evidently included tries, again not something seen in Australian football as we know it. ("Nolan, who got a try for the Englishmen was not equally fortunate.."). But whether this was a concession to the English or part of the general rules is not mentioned. The article makes no note of Carlton scoring a try (nor do any of the other summaries of the days footy), but does note that the umpire let several minor rule infractions go. The Argus also mentions rugby players might be more inclined to go for the "touch down". (In Rugby the impulse would have been to carry the ball over the goal line for the "touch down,"..)

​

The scores at the end of the match were Carlton 14.17 d England 3.8. Which isnt too bad considering Carlton led at half time 7.7 to 0.1.

​

The English evidently took to the game after just two scratch matches, but to the reporter many of its team ("at least half the team..") seemed eminently suited to the Australian game. The article notes that he wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the tour the English could match it with the best.

​

The team was scheduled to play Castlemaine and Sandhurst before meeting "a formidable twenty" from South Melbourne. Apparently the England team had been to New Zealand before arriving and had not had the best of times. ("..and in this respect also the Englishmen, after their experiences in some of the New Zealand towns, will be in a position to make comparisons not unfavourable to our game and those who play it"..)

​

For those playing at home: The article is notable for constantly referring to the game as Australian, never in the article does it mention Victoria or Melbourne as a source of the game. The article clearly differentiates between the Australian code and Rugby.

​

The article in the Argus is available at http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/6133442 and reprinted in its entirety at australianfootball.com.

 

[Shatterpoint]

That is very interesting, good find.

 

[Jarlcorbz]

I hope one day we can all see a re-match!

 

[fabulousphil]

I was doing some research for another project when I happened across the Argus report of a game between England and Carlton dated June 18th, 1888. The report is fascinating for a number of reasons so I thought Id go through it.

The Match report tells us this was the debut of the Englishmen under Australian rules - the Rules is not capitalised - and that the largest crowd of the season was at the venue, estimated at 26,000. It makes no mention of how many got in for free. The writer for the Argus wrote:



England won the toss, and the Argus reports that the game started with a kick-off. Not something typically seen in Australian Football for many a year. Behinds were scored, and the writer says that the English were having a very good go, and trying not to fall back into rugby rules. Evidently the marking and passing of the Carlton team was somewhat confusing to the English players.

​

The Article makes note of place kicks - again not seen for some time in Australian football, as well as drop kicks and long kicks. The author noted that the English "at present they lack perfection in drop kicking, and made no attempt at marking from long kicks".

​

The game evidently included tries, again not something seen in Australian football as we know it. ("Nolan, who got a try for the Englishmen was not equally fortunate.."). But whether this was a concession to the English or part of the general rules is not mentioned. The article makes no note of Carlton scoring a try (nor do any of the other summaries of the days footy), but does note that the umpire let several minor rule infractions go. The Argus also mentions rugby players might be more inclined to go for the "touch down". (In Rugby the impulse would have been to carry the ball over the goal line for the "touch down,"..)

​

The scores at the end of the match were Carlton 14.17 d England 3.8. Which isnt too bad considering Carlton led at half time 7.7 to 0.1.

​

The English evidently took to the game after just two scratch matches, but to the reporter many of its team ("at least half the team..") seemed eminently suited to the Australian game. The article notes that he wouldn't be surprised if by the end of the tour the English could match it with the best.

​

The team was scheduled to play Castlemaine and Sandhurst before meeting "a formidable twenty" from South Melbourne. Apparently the England team had been to New Zealand before arriving and had not had the best of times. ("..and in this respect also the Englishmen, after their experiences in some of the New Zealand towns, will be in a position to make comparisons not unfavourable to our game and those who play it"..)

​

For those playing at home: The article is notable for constantly referring to the game as Australian, never in the article does it mention Victoria or Melbourne as a source of the game. The article clearly differentiates between the Australian code and Rugby.

​

The article in the Argus is available at http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/6133442 and reprinted in its entirety at australianfootball.com.

Good find Wookie,

Probably sounds like splitting hairs, but i don't think England scored any tries in the way we understand them these days, from a rugby perspective.

The full sentence reads "Nolan, who got a try for the Englishmen was not equally fortunate, and only added to the behinds.

I would say that Nolan took a mark, got a free kick, or had a shot ( try) at goal in play and missed the big sticks only getting a behind.

It is possible that the style of writing in 1888 meant try, was actually a shot at goal.

The article appears to make a distinction between a try and touchdowns, i have no doubt that the Englismen were inclined to go for touchdowns, as that was the nature of Rugby.

In fact i thought that the word touchdown was distinctly American, used for American football, but obviously they took it from rugby as well, somewhere down the line, sort of ironic for American football, because they don't actually touch it down, but perhpas in days gone by, it was part of the rules.

 

[fabulousphil]

"Nolan, who got a try for the Englishmen was not equally fortunate, and only added to the behinds.


http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8611809?searchTerm=got a try at goal vfa&searchLimits=
The try was a bit short, but Smith remedied this by scoring Melbourne's fourth goal


http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8551555?searchTerm=got a try at goal vfa&searchLimits=
Morrisonn had an unsuccessful try, and a lot of loose play was followed by a behind.


http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8545852?searchTerm=got a try at goal vfa&searchLimits=
W. Hughes next got a try at very long range, but was equal to the occasion and scored a spledid long range goal.

 

[The_Wookie]

nice follow up phil.

 

[Mero]

Carlton also played Waratahs NSW in Rugby on the Saturday and then Victorian Rules on Monday July 1, 1878.
The Rugby game ended NSW 1 try, 1 goal to Carlton 1 try, 1 (disputed) goal.
The dispute apparently ended the game.
In the footy on Monday, Carlton won 2-14 to NSW 1-2

http://digital.slv.vic.gov.au/view/...VIEW_MAIN&frameId=1&usePid1=true&usePid2=true
Match Report is on page 70

 

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

That Carlton match was part of a tour by the Great Britain rugby team that could only be described as epic. They spent 6 weeks in NZ (9 matches) before arriving in Sydney for the Australian leg of the tour which started with a rugby match against NSW on June 2 and wrapped up a full three months later in Newcastle.

They visited Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Brisbane with numerous stops along the way at regional centres like Ballarat, Bendigo, Horsham, Bathurst and Newcastle - playing a total of 33 matches (19 of which were under Australian Rules).

Top level clubs played against were:
VIC - Carlton, Essendon, Fitzroy, Port Melbourne, South Melbourne (matches against Geelong and NM were also planned but fell through)
SA - Adelaide, Norwood, Port Adelaide, South Adelaide

Port Adelaide were the only top grade team to lose to the Brits (8.8 to 7.8). The rugby boys also managed to defeat Bendigo, Ballarat and Horsham at Aussie Rules and drew with Castlemaine and Sandhurst.

Tragically, their captain drowned at West Maitland on Aug.15 so the match against Newcastle scheduled for the next day was postponed. The team departed for Queensland (3 more matches) and returned to Newcastle to finally wrap up the tour.