Carlton's list is over-rated

[HeziBarecket]

I think our list is over-rated, as our flank players are very ordinary at best, and our skills have a way to go..

You look at the Scum and Adelaide, their lists aren't much better than ours, but their coaches utilise the players better and their skils, especially when attacking for goal are alot more effieicent.

Besides Fevola, our efficiency at goal is shithouse, and that really kills you when you play a 'confidence' side ie: a team with no real out-and-out stars like Collingwood or Adelaide. In last night's game, you get a guy like David kick a flukey goal then Didak kicks a good one, and the table turn, especially when they bottle up your running game.

Essendon can go to hell, becuase when they lose their anchors in Lloyd, Lucas and Fletcher, there will be no on field leadership and they'll become a rabble, those guys always lead Essendon to victory in one way or another..

But that gets back to our dilemma, becuase you take Judd or Fev out and our team looks ordinary.

Ratten has to get more of a contribution from our bootm 12 players, as really they are on par with Richmond or Melbourne. A shot in the fianls will do them wonder, you would hope, but their workrate and SKILLS have to be 110% over the next few weeks or they won't get their finals berth, player who need to tighten the f-up are:

PISHER
SCOTLAND
HARTLETT
BENTLEY
JOHNSON
GRIGG
HOULIHANBAG
RUSSELL
YARRAN
AUSTIN
GIBBS
CARRAZZO
and even FEV

 

[mediumsizered]

Collingwood fielded a much younger side than both Carlton/Essendon.

In last night's game,
Carlton's average age = 23 years, 3 months
Collingwood's average age = 24 years, 6 months
Carlton games per player = 64.7
Collingwood games per player = 90.9
Carlton 5 players with more than 100 games' experience
Collingwood 9 players with more than 100 games' experience.

Now go back to wherever it is you came from.

 

[PeeKay]

l believe a significant number of Carlton's fans continue to over-rate our list.
Our performance against Essendon a month ago showed some real holes, a one dimensional game plan and a number of players that clearly are not up to standard against the better sides.

In tonight's the game the following players have doubts whether they can take us to a top 4 side.

Hartlett- clearly not a senior Afl player
Johnson- at best is a fringe player
Fisher- a one dimensional player whom is no longer a forward threat to the opposition.
Austin - hopefully will improve but decision making is quite ordinary.
Bentley - not a senior Afl player
Russell - is found out against good opposition, a non creative footballer
Houihan- ordinary tonight and is very much a borderline player
Hampson- has shown some improvement but a long way to go, and we have a oversupply of ruckman and a real lack of young tall forwards.
Yarran- needs a another 12 months to make a firm judgement, however l find it laughable the people saying Rich has no scope for improvement, the reality is he is so far in front of the other young drafted players they will be spending the next three years catching up.

We clearly lack a some young forwards and this will hinder our progress if we cannot find a solution here and the reality is we are quite a distance from the better sides, sure we have some players out but the reality is there will always be some unavailable players over the course of the year, unlike some fans l see Kruezer as a ruckman and a resting deep forward, l just don't believe he is in the mould of a Riewoldt were he is very quick over the first 10 metres to fill Centre half forward.

The last point is that the constant bagging Nick Stevens has copped in the last few weeks is justified to a point, and the point l make he is a quality player, unlike some of the above, and based on his contractual situation the only option is for our club to find a way to extract the best out of him, as unlike some recent posts, l think we still seriously need him in our team which is not just based on tonight's game, we were blessed after the Essendon game to play three bottom five teams

Look forward to any comments on these points.

Well put. The principle you are putting forward that a number of our players may not be up to AFL standard. Although we may differ a little which players we are talking about, in principle I agree.

 

[Blue Bawls]

You forgot Carrazzo, Simpson, Scotland, Joseph and Betts.

Silly boy.

 

[Blue Bawls]

I think everyone should just harden the f**k up and take a loss on the chin. After every loss this year I have come on the board to have a little giggle at all the whingers on this board but now it's become ridiculous. In this thread I have seen Carlton supporters bagging their own players, A Richmond fan bagging our players, A RICHMOND SUPPORTER, A FUC*ING RICHMOND supporter... I thought I'd keep this comment to my self but go back to the hole you call a club and mourn over your pathetic team, an absolute shithouse football club and for you to be coming on other teams boards and calling them crap, you must be high on drugs or have consumed too much alcohole.

Secondly Carlton supporters bagging the crap out of their own team, you are not supporters. We are a young side and with youth comes inconsistancy, just grow up and take it on the chin.

and A Collingwood supporter bagging us .. where do I start, your team is almost as pathetic as Richmond. I guess your still upset about losing those Grandfinals, piss back off to your feral board you toothless scum!

Richmond would have beaten us last night.

 

[dumb]

over-rated now. this isn't the same team that put away the doggies by 6 goals earlier in the year. ask again next week.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Essendon can go to hell, becuase when they lose their anchors in Lloyd, Lucas and Fletcher, there will be no on field leadership and they'll become a rabble, those guys always lead Essendon to victory in one way or another..

wishful thinking board

 

[thylacine60]

Richmond would have beaten us last night.

No question.

 

[Ketchup]

Your list is not bad you just don't get enough out of your young players. I like your list and firmly believe 2-3 years and you guys will be top 4 contending for a flag. The only thing i don't like about you going forward is your coach. I read opposition boards often and theres never really a bad thread about rats, does anyone else think hes not a great coach here? Im not going to say much about he moves too late, bad game plan etc etc, as i see 5-6 games of you guys a year but yea.

 

[mac25]

Not by most level headed observers of the game that base improvement on where we came from last year and the year before not the last 3 weeks or where we sit on the ladder one week to the next. 10 percent improvement on last year (the benchmark minimum) is 11 wins. On form you would say we would get those with Roos and Melb to come. We may just jag another against one of the SA teams. That for mine puts us about where we are. 11-12 wins is where our list is right now and bottom of the 8. Next year I expect 15 wins and top 4 with the usual 4-6 changes of players. At the start of the year I thought we may leap frog a little and top 4 this year and we have been in the mix at various stages (as recently as this past week) but we are not quite top 4 yet and fair enough. Improvement will come from the current players, in the form of mental toughness, fitness, skill and determination and ability to play to our plan or the game imposed on us by an equally skilled, fit and determined opposition. It will come but it takes as long as it takes. Remember the ups and downs the cats and saints have been through getting to where they currently sit. The talk of them has been about 5 years now. Remember the night grand final they played against each other, many years ago, thats how long it has taken for them to get the game they have now.

So no our list is not overated it is rated just about where it is.

l think some Carlton fans are under the mis- conception we will become a top four side with our current list, and for two key reasons, l don't believe we will.

- Firstly our top 10 players are of a very good quality but our bottom half of our team is still quite average and needs significant improvement, so we need to find a way to find a further 2 to 4 players into our list that will improve our depth of quality.

- Secondly our forward half lacks real depth of talent, aside from Fev and some good games from Betts there is very little else in terms of real quality.
We will NOT become a top 4 side until we address this via drafting/trading.

The third point both Essendon & Collingwood both fairly young sides have made us look very ordinary in big games, and we cannot continue roll out the same old excuses, we are young and we will learn by the experience, l think the problem is deeper than this and that is our depth of talent is not there at this point and our list needs further improvement.

 

[lethalburns]

Grigg/Bower look like something to work with. I was under the impression that you had no backline.

Forward line is a slight worry. I'm not so sure about Eddie/Yarrin. You probably need to peak before Fevola retires unless you steal a gun in the draft.

It's funny. Collingwood supporters have been bagging Malthouse for being a deer stuck in headlights when we play Carlton/Hawthorn. No plan B, can't get the side up.. etc etc

Reading this thread I thought I stumbled into an old Collingwood post. I guess all supporters are the same.

 

[Revenge I Seek]

There has been a constant theme in our losses this season, the theme being the massive holes we leave in our defensive game by not correctly implementing this 'rolling zone'. It's a crap tactic to use because we don't make the opposition accountable, nor do we chase when opposition defenders and midfielders slip through the zone setup. When we're playing man-on-man footy (like we did last week against Sydney) we make our opposition accountable and stifle their defensive rebounds.

While our skills were deplorable last night, Malthouse's game plan compounded the hurt. By constantly forcing us wide to the boundary, Collingwood defenders were able to rebound up the corridor because our ****ing 'rolling zone' setup had been cleared out. People who can't see this need to watch our losses - clear as day that this is the issue. Massive gaping holes.

Kill off 'the zone', play more man on man footy. Our shoddy skills in pressure situations wont be so badly exposed. It's footy, not ****en basketball. Simple as.

 

[PrinceLugosi]

I thought Houlihan and Johnson were terrible early. Must be oh so frustrating. Perfect example Hoops' half ass attempt at tackling Davis just before that snap from the boundary.

That was the only couple of mistake he did in the game,he didn't make the tackle stick,why not say something on Judd poor delivery or one of the other stars who had a bad game. It's always easy to bag the average players then the stars that get beaten.

 

[PrinceLugosi]

I think our list is over-rated, as our flank players are very ordinary at best, and our skills have a way to go..

You look at the Scum and Adelaide, their lists aren't much better than ours, but their coaches utilise the players better and their skils, especially when attacking for goal are alot more effieicent.

Besides Fevola, our efficiency at goal is shithouse, and that really kills you when you play a 'confidence' side ie: a team with no real out-and-out stars like Collingwood or Adelaide. In last night's game, you get a guy like David kick a flukey goal then Didak kicks a good one, and the table turn, especially when they bottle up your running game.

Essendon can go to hell, becuase when they lose their anchors in Lloyd, Lucas and Fletcher, there will be no on field leadership and they'll become a rabble, those guys always lead Essendon to victory in one way or another..

But that gets back to our dilemma, becuase you take Judd or Fev out and our team looks ordinary.

Ratten has to get more of a contribution from our bootm 12 players, as really they are on par with Richmond or Melbourne. A shot in the fianls will do them wonder, you would hope, but their workrate and SKILLS have to be 110% over the next few weeks or they won't get their finals berth, player who need to tighten the f-up are:

PISHER
SCOTLAND
HARTLETT
BENTLEY
JOHNSON
GRIGG
HOULIHANBAG
RUSSELL
YARRAN
AUSTIN
GIBBS
CARRAZZO
and even FEV

Why not include

Dudd if you being smart with their names,even thou he isn't one but played poor.

 

[BlueSnake]

There has been a constant theme in our losses this season, the theme being the massive holes we leave in our defensive game by not correctly implementing this 'rolling zone'. It's a crap tactic to use because we don't make the opposition accountable, nor do we chase when opposition defenders and midfielders slip through the zone setup. When we're playing man-on-man footy (like we did last week against Sydney) we make our opposition accountable and stifle their defensive rebounds.

While our skills were deplorable last night, Malthouse's game plan compounded the hurt. By constantly forcing us wide to the boundary, Collingwood defenders were able to rebound up the corridor because our ****ing 'rolling zone' setup had been cleared out. People who can't see this need to watch our losses - clear as day that this is the issue. Massive gaping holes.

Kill off 'the zone', play more man on man footy. Our shoddy skills in pressure situations wont be so badly exposed. It's footy, not ****en basketball. Simple as.

Good post and I'm surprised I have not seen anyone else mention the same thing.

Personally, everytime we have one of "those" games, I've noticed we appear to be playing a crap version of the rolling zone, and it just doesn't seem to be working against the decent sides.

Now, I'm not to worried at this stage because we have alot of young players and they are still really just getting used to playing together on a regular basis and that "gelling" will come with time, along with the better implementation of the gameplan(but of course, all the players are gonna have to start working harder for eachother as well).

 

[Cruiser23]

There has been a constant theme in our losses this season, the theme being the massive holes we leave in our defensive game by not correctly implementing this 'rolling zone'. It's a crap tactic to use because we don't make the opposition accountable, nor do we chase when opposition defenders and midfielders slip through the zone setup. When we're playing man-on-man footy (like we did last week against Sydney) we make our opposition accountable and stifle their defensive rebounds.

While our skills were deplorable last night, Malthouse's game plan compounded the hurt. By constantly forcing us wide to the boundary, Collingwood defenders were able to rebound up the corridor because our ****ing 'rolling zone' setup had been cleared out. People who can't see this need to watch our losses - clear as day that this is the issue. Massive gaping holes.

Kill off 'the zone', play more man on man footy. Our shoddy skills in pressure situations wont be so badly exposed. It's footy, not ****en basketball. Simple as.

That is exactly what i said last night just after the game.

 

[Jabso]

I think your list is overrated, if it is rated as a list that will definately dominate the next 5 years, as some people have. I still rate it as a finals side for the next few years but nothing really beyond that, but that's not so bad as you have plenty of time to get it right. Whether it's with Ratten or not could be another question.

All your talented players are mids, except Fev. Bower and Jamison will be good key defenders as well but too many holes. Your midfield should be one of the best in the next few years if it's not already, but you can't do much without quality in other areas. Apart from Fev the only AA grade player that's not Fev or a midfielder is Waite.

That's what seperates the teams above you battling for 4th and the teams that are battling for the last 1 or 2 spots. Team balance. You can't win a game with just your midfield, your defence or your forward line.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

That's what seperates the teams above you battling for 4th and the teams that are battling for the last 1 or 2 spots. Team balance. You can't win a game with just your midfield, your defence or your forward line.

Bollocks, West Coast won a flag with 3 mids, 1 ruck, and Glass.

 

[40yearBLUE]

l think some Carlton fans are under the mis- conception we will become a top four side with our current list, and for two key reasons, l don't believe we will. Point 1. I think some Carlton fans are under the misconception we are a top 4 team every second week or depending on the result we just had complain that we are not. Not many serious thinkers had us top 4 this year. I briefly entertained the idea pre season and to be fair we have been just short of it (a win last night and this conversation is very different) and I hadnt reckoned on the Saints or Adelaide. We are travelling pretty much where most had us at the start of the year and I bow to their superior judgement, what bothers me is most of those same posters that had us finishing 7th or 8th are now moaning like ten year olds who had their playstation confiscated that we are bottom of the 8.

- Firstly our top 10 players are of a very good quality but our bottom half of our team is still quite average and needs significant improvement, so we need to find a way to find a further 2 to 4 players into our list that will improve our depth of quality. Our top 10 are as good as any going around and would slot into any side so no argument there. I agree the next 10 are not as good as they need to be for a top 4 team, see point 1, we are not a top 4 team yet, most of these next 10 have less than 50 games and need a couple of seasons to gain the experience necesary to make the grade. Some are not up to it and may never be and each year we rotate 4-6 players out so we will soon see who the club thinks wont make the cut.

- Secondly our forward half lacks real depth of talent, aside from Fev and some good games from Betts there is very little else in terms of real quality.
We will NOT become a top 4 side until we address this via drafting/trading. We have 1700 points for, some 200 clear of both Adel and Bris who are yet to play but they wont kick 200 points so we have more points for than the 2 sides directly above us, but unsurprisingly we have less points for than the sides in the top 4. Go back to point 1 and continue past this point if you now understand that we are not yet a top 4 team.

The third point both Essendon & Collingwood both fairly young sides have made us look very ordinary in big games, and we cannot continue roll out the same old excuses, we are young and we will learn by the experience, l think the problem is deeper than this and that is our depth of talent is not there at this point and our list needs further improvement.

If you have read this far you now accept we are not a top 4 side yet and are satisfied we are bottom of the 8 level. Some sides will make you look ordinary when you win just more than you lose. If you win 12 or so games then chances are you lost 10 or so. I amaze myself sometimes. And in those 10 or so losses that a bottom of the 8 side will have some are going to be blown out to 12 goals from time to time, hell the runner up last year had 1 loss for the year in the H&A and that was by 15 goals! After a heavy defeat some posters question every fibre of the organization because it is simply unacceptable. Hell I dont know how the bootstudder got out alive last night. And if he turns up Monday I suggest we get a posse together.

We are performing about exactly where most thought we would, why then at the pointy end are we getting so concerned about, A) our list, B) our foward structure, C) our game plan or D) anything else that you think might be wrong with either the club or the world in general.

 

[The Cranium]

Richmond would have beaten us last night.

Really...Thanks for that capt Obvious

 

[Lance Uppercut]

If you have read this far you now accept we are not a top 4 side yet and are satisfied we are bottom of the 8 level. Some sides will make you look ordinary when you win just more than you lose. If you win 12 or so games then chances are you lost 10 or so. I amaze myself sometimes. And in those 10 or so losses that a bottom of the 8 side will have some are going to be blown out to 12 goals from time to time, hell the runner up last year had 1 loss for the year in the H&A and that was by 15 goals! After a heavy defeat some posters question every fibre of the organization because it is simply unacceptable. Hell I dont know how the bootstudder got out alive last night. And if he turns up Monday I suggest we get a posse together.

We are performing about exactly where most thought we would, why then at the pointy end are we getting so concerned about, A) our list, B) our foward structure, C) our game plan or D) anything else that you think might be wrong with either the club or the world in general.

[/B]

Use it

 

[FRUMPY]

I dont think our list is overated at all. Most unbiased observers would have had Carlton as a 7-9 side at the start of this year. I hoped we made the eight and maybe win one final. Still hasnt changed.

It probably comes from people on this board who praise the team when we win and a player plays well, they say he is a superstar and in our top 10. THen when we lose and play bad, that same player gets bashed from pillar to post and is a dud and should never play again.

Most have to take off the blinkers and realsie we aint a top4 side and were always gonna just scrape into the eight. Looking at the rest of the draw we will beat North and Melbourne, lose against Geelong and Adelaide and comes down to how we go against port.

 

[chaser1]

Mostly agree with want you guys think. Constructive talk great. Can someone please explain to me why Bentley and Johnson where recruited and why to they continually get games they do not deserve!

Bentley clearly not AFL standard and Johnson a bit player at best. Don't underestimate the loss of Waite and Walker and the loss of form of Stevens. These 3 players and their best or near it make a huge difference to our side. I say 3-5 goal better side. We have a lot of culling to do at the end of the year if we are to progress to the next level. Fisher, Bentley, Johnson ,Hartlett,Russell and i am sure their is a few more, have to be looked at years end! Hadley has been dissapointing so far? But your telling me that he cant get a game ahead of bentley, johnson. Cmon.

Yes we are developing,but can anyone tell me what our defined game plan is? Collingwood, Hawthorn, Geelong, Essendon, Brisbane St kilda ,Adelaide have one. It may not always work but they have one? Have we, not bagging Ratts but has he developed one in 2.5 years? Or does it change week to week. Kick ins? Rolling zone? Men behind the ball? Disposal skills when under pressure? Or is it a fact that clearly some of our players are not up to the standard required to get you to the next level no matter how much practice and coaching they get both technically and Mentally?

Why do we seem to recruit players who lack the technical basics of an AFL Footballer.ie KIcking , general disposal aptitude. Armfield , Hampson, Bentley, Johnson. They are behind the 8 ball already, and have to work so hard just to get AFL standard? Add setanta to that as well.5 years and now he is just starting to show he is AFL level( He wasnt even a gaelic footballer, hurling ) Although injuries have curtailed his progression somewhat. Just some food for though guys!Marty Clarke made it in one year!

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Why do we seem to recruit players who lack the technical basics of an AFL Footballer.ie KIcking , general disposal aptitude. Armfield , Hampson, Bentley, Johnson. They are behind the 8 ball already, and have to work so hard just to get AFL standard? Add setanta to that as well.5 years and now he is just starting to show he is AFL level( He wasnt even a gaelic footballer, hurling ) Although injuries have curtailed his progression somewhat. Just some food for though guys!Marty Clarke made it in one year!

Bit hard to put Hampson (though he must need Tony Southcombes glasses after Friday night) in with that lot.

He was a product of Mark Brownings Queensland, pinch rugby/soccer players, Academy that also produced Tippett, Jesse White, Brad Moran.

 

[The Exorcist]

Mostly agree with want you guys think. Constructive talk great. Can someone please explain to me why Bentley and Johnson where recruited and why to they continually get games they do not deserve!

Bentley clearly not AFL standard and Johnson a bit player at best. Don't underestimate the loss of Waite and Walker and the loss of form of Stevens. These 3 players and their best or near it make a huge difference to our side. I say 3-5 goal better side. We have a lot of culling to do at the end of the year if we are to progress to the next level. Fisher, Bentley, Johnson ,Hartlett,Russell and i am sure their is a few more, have to be looked at years end! Hadley has been dissapointing so far? But your telling me that he cant get a game ahead of bentley, johnson. Cmon.

Yes we are developing,but can anyone tell me what our defined game plan is? Collingwood, Hawthorn, Geelong, Essendon, Brisbane St kilda ,Adelaide have one. It may not always work but they have one? Have we, not bagging Ratts but has he developed one in 2.5 years? Or does it change week to week. Kick ins? Rolling zone? Men behind the ball? Disposal skills when under pressure? Or is it a fact that clearly some of our players are not up to the standard required to get you to the next level no matter how much practice and coaching they get both technically and Mentally?

Why do we seem to recruit players who lack the technical basics of an AFL Footballer.ie KIcking , general disposal aptitude. Armfield , Hampson, Bentley, Johnson. They are behind the 8 ball already, and have to work so hard just to get AFL standard? Add setanta to that as well.5 years and now he is just starting to show he is AFL level( He wasnt even a gaelic footballer, hurling ) Although injuries have curtailed his progression somewhat. Just some food for though guys!Marty Clarke made it in one year!

Game plan is kicking to Fev.

Nuff said.

Chaser 1, this year we've had some bad losses, but some of those top teams you've referred to we've beaten, namely Brissie twice, the Bulldogs & Collingwood once. We're inconsistent but definitely on the improve (think where we were 2 years ago)

We do have a game plan, but the game plan is dependent on ability. The MC has definitely tried to find other options to goal than Fev, ie. they've tried Cloke & Fish without much success, and Carlos who was doing well until injured. Also, I think the midfield has certainly tried to kick more goals this year. Also, our back line is playing and running with a LOT more system in the passed, and we're pretty good at the stoppages. Our basic plan is possession football and then if we can move it on at all costs

And yes, they're some players on our list whose disposal is poor, ie. Army, however there's 2 things to poor disposal (1) the ability of the player and (2) confidence, which is more important. I say more important because if you had kick to kick with 99% pf ALF players they'd freak you out - I used to play at a lower level but kicked with mates who were AFL or borderline AFL, and they were brilliant. Ever notice how a team for part of the match can't find each other, then once they break away or get a run on they find each other and kick them from all angles? It's called confidence and responding to pressure. For example, our boys we're finding the target almost each time in the last quarter against Sydney, looked a million dollars, yet Friday night was completely different.

And I wouldn't be too quick in delisting heaps of players, (1) we need depth, and (2) some of these players have improved, ie. JR.