Categorising players: Ranking systems

[FieryNayta]

Ok. Something that has been intriguing me for a while is the labels we put on players. We rattle off taglines for players willy nilly (the media are very guilty of this aswell). We call players "superstars", "stars", "elite players" and so forth. Often we go overboard, or give players undue recognition. We label players as "stars" in their first season on AFL, when in reality, this is unrealistic.

This is how i would categorise players in these various categories.

Superstars - These are the best of the best. Players who have reached the extreme heights of footballing ability. They must not only be great footballers, but have such an auro about them, that they sell memberships in massive numbers on their own. At the moment in the AFL, i can only give the green light to 4 AFL players. These are Chris Judd, Jonathan Brown, Gary Ablett Jnr and Lance Franklin. Being part of premiership teams is a large part of being viewed in this light.

Stars - These are players who are pretty much at the top level in the AFL. There are not many players who are better than them, but there a perhaps a few factors holding them back from being viewed in the top bracket. Such players would be Luke Hodge, Nick Riewoldt, Matthew Richardson, Brad Johnson and Brendan Fevola

Elite - Players that are considered in the upper echelon of the AFL, but dont create a large amount of buzz. They do their job consistently and professionally all season long. Players like Kane Cornes, Cameron Bruce, Daniel Cross, Luke Power and Sam Mitchell.

Good players - The ones who are cemented in the best 22 each week. They aren't the greatest players out there, but they get the most out of themselves. I would include players like Scott Burns, Adam Simpson, Heath Scotland and Mark McVeigh.

Do people agree that this is a fair assumption? Please feel free to disagree and try to plug various players into the above categories. Some players are hard to rank as they get older and begin to to shift into different classes. Again, please feel free to disagree with my classing of players or even my interpretation of what the classes should consist of.

I'll get the ball rolling....

Please class for me...

Matthew Pavlich
Simon Black
Drew Petrie
Nick Stevens
Adam Goodes
Joel Selwood
Jarrad Waite
and Nathan Foley...

Please throw up some more names and discuss at your leisure.

 

[swiftdog]

Please class for me...

Matthew Pavlich - superstar
Simon Black - star (was superstar)
Drew Petrie - elite-good
Nick Stevens - good
Adam Goodes - superstar
Joel Selwood - elite
Jarrad Waite - good
and Nathan Foley... - elite

Please throw up some more names and discuss at your leisure.

That's my take on them

 

[raskolnikov]

Mark McVeigh is elite.
Goodes is a superstar.

 

[Andronicus]

i reckon you are fairly accurate with what you said.

interestingly every superstar you have mentioned has a premiership to their name. as would adam goodes.

my question mark would be over pavlich. i rate him as one of the best in the competition and i think that even without a flag should be with the other superstars.

 

[Swans120]

Goodes - has to be a superstar surely. 2 Brownlows, a premiership, being able to achieve household name status up here in Sydney (no mean feat let me tell you), if Goodesy played in any other team he would be considered up there with Ablett/Buddy, but cause he is a Swan not enough people give rate him appropriately (apologies if this sounds like a bit of a Swan-rant)

Pavlich - star, he is one of the best players in the comp without a doubt and when he is able to win games consistently for fremantle and not choke, and lead them at least close to a flag, i will have no problem with him being a superstar

Black - superstar, THE MOST UNDERRATED PLAYER IN THE AFL, similar to Goodesy, would be huge if he played anywhere other than Brisbane or Sydney, i guess he might fall down in the selling memberships category, but i think that he is well worth the superstar label for his consistency and his match-winning ability eventhough he isnt a flashy player in most respects (like Goodes/Ablett/Buddy etc.)

Stevens, Selwood and Foley - elite, both are very good players and i think elite is apt for both of them, but i believe Selwood and Foley are definitely capable of and almost certainly will be pushing into higher brackets in the near future

Petrie - elite, one more really good year and i'm happy to put him in the star category (also isnt helped by being at the Roos)

Waite - good, please don't jump all over me Blue-Baggers about this one, but atm i dont think he is consistent enough to be in the Mitchell/Cross etc. category, HOWEVER, i think he is almost certain to at least have pushed into the Star category within a few years

 

[Souup]

Matthew Pavlich - Superstar
Simon Black - Star
Drew Petrie - Elite (If he backs last years effort then he's in "stars")
Nick Stevens - Good
Adam Goodes - Superstar
Joel Selwood - Elite
Jarrad Waite - Good
and Nathan Foley... - Elite

 

[Foley]

I reckon another category needs to be chucked in for those players who are looking like being future stars ... dunno what you'd call the category, Rising Stars, or something. Mainly for players in their first 3 seasons? Cyril Rioli, Trent Cotchin, Rhys Palmer, Joel Selwood (that'd be an interesting one), Dale Thomas, Scott Pendlebury, etc.

I know a few of them could be considered for other categories, but just an idea.

 

[FieryNayta]

For mine, players like Goodes, Simon Black and Andrew McLeod were VERY unluncky to miss out on the Superstar tag. I believe these to have been my transitional type players, who as they are getting a little bit older, are being replaced by the next generation and are being a little overshadowed.

Goodes and Simon Black can easily take the superstar tag aswell. Wont get too much argument from me.

 

[Andronicus]

For mine, players like Goodes, Simon Black and Andrew McLeod were VERY unluncky to miss out on the Superstar tag. I believe these to have been my transitional type players, who as they are getting a little bit older, are being replaced by the next generation and are being a little overshadowed.

Goodes and Simon Black can easily take the superstar tag aswell. Wont get too much argument from me.

where would you put pav?

 

[FieryNayta]

I reckon another category needs to be chucked in for those players who are looking like being future stars ... dunno what you'd call the category, Rising Stars, or something. Mainly for players in their first 3 seasons? Cyril Rioli, Trent Cotchin, Rhys Palmer, Joel Selwood (that'd be an interesting one), Dale Thomas, Scott Pendlebury, etc.

I know a few of them could be considered for other categories, but just an idea.

Yeah, i had that idea. Because alot of these players have shown that they will be future stars, but still yet lack the consistency to be considered elite. Rhys Palmer is now Fremantles best mid fielder after his first season, but is probably too early to call him "elite" as we dont know if he will continue at the same level. Unfairly, he may just be considered a "good player" for the time being. Its kind of a grey area.

 

[__aria__]

you do not know what elite means

 

[FieryNayta]

where would you put pav?

I struggled alot with Pavlich. In ability he is probably worthy of being called a "superstar" and i rate him to be just about equal with jonathan brown. However, he hasn't won a premiership, and Fremantle have been an average side in the time that he's been there. This is perhaps not his fault, but it may be the only thing that separated him from the best of the best.

 

[FieryNayta]

you do not know what elite means

please share

 

[A Living God]

Superstar ~ top 1% (approx 6 players)
Elite ~1% - 5% (24 players)
Very Good ~ 5% - 15% (60 players)
Above Average ~ 15% - 40% (150 players)
Average ~ 40% - 60% (120 players)
Below average ~ 60% - 75% (90 players)
Not of AFL standard ~ 75% - 100% (150 players)

 

[Blind Turn]

I think if you have the runs on the board as a veteran, even if you have fallen away somewhat, you can still be considered a superstar. Lloyd would be one for mine (many will disagree). Harvey was still a superstar even though his powers were waning last year and had no premiership to show. Cousins is also a superstar no matter what the year holds for him. Fletcher is a star but for the role he plays in most essendon fans eyes he is a superstar... he just doesn't have the crowd pulling power of a Franklin. Damien Cupido was a superstar... in his own eyes.

 

[Papa Juggs]

Seems like you have a fame weighting in there. I would rank some lesser knowns as superstars on ability.

Jimmy B and Joel Corey frequently outshine G Ablett and don't get the credit.

 

[DOCKER MAN]

Matthew Pavlich: Superstar
Simon Black: Star
Drew Petrie: Elite
Nick Stevens: Elite
Adam Goodes: Star
Joel Selwood: Elite
Jarrad Waite: Average
Nathan Foley: Elite

 

[B-Bomber]

Superstar ~ top 1% (approx 6 players)
Elite ~1% - 5% (24 players)
Very Good ~ 5% - 15% (60 players)
Above Average ~ 15% - 40% (150 players)
Average ~ 40% - 60% (120 players)
Below average ~ 60% - 75% (90 players)
Not of AFL standard ~ 75% - 100% (150 players)

Wouldn't it be more like a standard bell curve? With the bulk of players having comparable ability and the extremes of superstar and superdud being the rarities?

 

[FieryNayta]

I think if you have the runs on the board as a veteran, even if you have fallen away somewhat, you can still be considered a superstar. Lloyd would be one for mine (many will disagree). Harvey was still a superstar even though his powers were waning last year and had no premiership to show. Cousins is also a superstar no matter what the year holds for him. Fletcher is a star but for the role he plays in most essendon fans eyes he is a superstar... he just doesn't have the crowd pulling power of a Franklin. Damien Cupido was a superstar... in his own eyes.

These are very valid points, and ones i did take into account when writing the OP. Again, these kind of players come under that grey area. Lloyd is definately a superstar as he has the runs on the board, and will be known as one of the best full forwards in hostory. His record speaks for itself. But when i wrote the OP, i tried to focus on how players are seen based on their current performances to keep everything on a level playing field.

In many ways, if a player is once known as a superstar, they will usually be able to carry that tag for the rest of their careers as they have proven what they can do.

I mean, Lleyton Hewitt WAS a superstar even though he's gone off the radar in recent years. But he will always been known as an Australian tennis superstar.

 

[gtrain90]

Wouldn't it be more like a standard bell curve? With the bulk of players having comparable ability and the extremes of superstar and superdud being the rarities?

someone fresh out of vce or working in stats???
not many would pull out a standard bell curve! 68-95-99.7

but i believe there are more 'duds' than super stars... as with around 85 or so drafted each year and the reality is that only about 1 in 10 is going to be around the club from drafting in 10 years..
(i will grant there are exceptions)

 

[Roos34]

Matthew Pavlich: Superstar
Simon Black: Star
Drew Petrie: Elite
Nick Stevens: Elite
Adam Goodes: Star
Joel Selwood: Elite
Jarrad Waite: Average
Nathan Foley: Elite

Superstars: Those that were mentioned in the first pos judd brown etc. Black is in top 10 in comp and has been since 2000. Boomer Harvey gets this tag, Bartel easily, Goodes yes, Kerr, Scarlett.

 

[Quinz]

This is how i would categorise players in these various categories.

Superstars - These are the best of the best. Players who have reached the extreme heights of footballing ability. They must not only be great footballers, but have such an auro about them, that they sell memberships in massive numbers on their own. At the moment in the AFL, i can only give the green light to 4 AFL players. These are Chris Judd, Jonathan Brown, Gary Ablett Jnr and Lance Franklin. Being part of premiership teams is a large part of being viewed in this light.

How many superstars can you have in the competition? It's a tough question, there are a lot of very good players, but if you're talking about the best of the best of the best, you're still going to leave some excellent players out.

I would rate Pavlich as a superstar, but does his lack of playing in a successful side hold him back? I borderline rate Cox as a superstar, but the position of ruckman doesn't seem to hold as much weight as a champion midfielder or forward. Cousins is a superstar much closer to the end of his career than the others, and hasn't played much in the last few years so he wouldn't be there either.

FWIW I wouldn't have Brown in there, but I would have Pavlich.

Simon Black I'm not sure about, same with Boomer Harvey, they are both excellent players but not in the absolute top bracket, IMO only.

And what about players like Kerr, Riewoldt, Goodes, Cooney etc.? It's tough to split the stars from the superstars in some cases.

 

[TassieSaint]

I don't see how you could possibly categorise Riewoldt a level below Brown. I would rate both Roo and Pav as better than him, but at the very least all 3 should be on the same level (superstar)

 

[jonoman89]

I wouldn't include Brown in the same category as the other 3. I think the absolute cream of the comp is: Ablett, Judd, Franklin, Scarlett and Pavlich. No other player comes close to them.

Matthew Pavlich - superstar
Simon Black - star
Drew Petrie - good
Nick Stevens - good
Adam Goodes - star
Joel Selwood - elite
Jarrad Waite - good/elite
Nathan Foley - good/elite

 

[Total_Juddshanks]

It's an interesting question- I think the most sane way of doing it is to ,kkm at seasons in isolation- my categories are-

Superstar - In the top 10 players in the competition without question, and features in arguments about the best player in the comp.

Star - A very good player, who will be arguably top 10 in the league, and would be controversial if omitted from the AA side.

Quality - A good player, automatic first 18 selection in their side, and might potentially (along with the 50-60 other quality players) be a chance to snag one of the last few AA selectionson a flank or interchange.

Regular - The AFL average player- will be selected for 15-20 games for the year in most sides, and will have both good weeks and bad weeks in fairly regular proportion.

Hack - The guy who is the first cab off the rank on selection night after a loss- basically a guy whose natural level is a league below the AFL, but will bob up for a game every so often.

-So in 2008, Ablett, Franklin, Cooney and maybe an absolute handful of others wold fit into the superstar category. There are certainly plenty of people who will switch from category to category over their career. In other words, someone like Reiwoldt would have been superstar calibre for several years, but is more star calibre at the moment.