Celtic in the Premiership?

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Diego Forlan
Why are Welsh sides not adequate justification? Does it have something to do with the fact they're crap and not in the EPL? Because that would be poor and illogical reasoning Dan, even for you.

You might remember that UEFA rejected a proposal from the FA of Wales to allow Cardiff City, Swansea City and Wrexham, the possibility of a route back into Europe via the Welsh FA Cup, because they elected to remain in England.

Given their relative standings in England (as minnows) and the fact they opted to continue in the English League rather than join the League of Wales when it was established in the 1990s, they could argue they'd be better off in Wales, where they could make a tilt for European Football, instead of wallowing around divisions 1, 2, and 3, anyway.

The whole question of Rangers and Celtic playing in England raises far greater issues than that raised by the Welsh clubs. It's comparing trees to blades of grass.

 

[Dan26]

There is also the issue that Wales has only had a proper league for a decade. Totally different situation to Scotland.

Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham could have the chance to play in the qualifying rounds of the Champions League and UEFA Cup if they were Welsh based. Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are Wales' strongest clubs, but it's clubs like Barry Town who are responsible for Wales' presence in Europe.

But I suppose,if they moved back to Wales, their complete financial structure would probably collapse, and they would have to sell their players, so given they've been in the English League for an eternity, it would be a bit much to ask them to move back.

Celtic have been in Scotland for their entire history, so it's a totally different situation.

 

[clucas91]

I think Celtic and Rangers deserve their shot in England if the Scottish league continues to collapse around itself, the SPL is a pointless affair with only Celtic and Rangers obviously winning the big TV rights etc.

Maybe Celtic and Rangers could join the Welsh League?

 

[Diego Forlan]

How about we put Liverpool in the Irish League and Newcastle in the Northern Irish league? At least then both of them can win the league and qualify for Europe. After all it appears they won't be winning one in the years ahead.

 

[Diego Forlan]

Originally posted by Dan26
You might remember that UEFA rejected a proposal from the FA of Wales to allow Cardiff City, Swansea City and Wrexham, the possibility of a route back into Europe via the Welsh FA Cup, because they elected to remain in England.

Given their relative standings in England (as minnows) and the fact they opted to continue in the English League rather than join the League of Wales when it was established in the 1990s, they could argue they'd be better off in Wales, where they could make a tilt for European Football, instead of wallowing around divisions 1, 2, and 3, anyway.

The whole question of Rangers and Celtic playing in England raises far greater issues than that raised by the Welsh clubs. It's comparing trees to blades of grass.

Which web site did you lift this information from?

But then again, what difference does it make, the precedence has already been set to allow non-English based clubs into that league, so allowing Rangers or Celtic in isn't anything groundbreaking here.

 

[Diego Forlan]

Originally posted by Dan26
There is also the issue that Wales has only had a proper league for a decade. Totally different situation to Scotland.

Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham could have the chance to play in the qualifying rounds of the Champions League and UEFA Cup if they were Welsh based. Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are Wales' strongest clubs, but it's clubs like Barry Town who are responsible for Wales' presence in Europe.

But I suppose,if they moved back to Wales, their complete financial structure would probably collapse, and they would have to sell their players, so given they've been in the English League for an eternity, it would be a bit much to ask them to move back.

Celtic have been in Scotland for their entire history, so it's a totally different situation.

So what do you call the league system previous to this? A farce?

It's not like Barry Town have only been in existence since the formation of the League of Wales either. So they've all been playing elsewhere before that. As for Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea, well I'm pretty certain all three were never in English leagues from day dot. So they came from somewhere and have been in another league previous, much like Celtic and Rangers - so that 'point' just got belted over long off for six.

Also, given that Swansea were during the early eighties in the old English Division 1, and never fell out of the top 6 in one season, you can't say these sides were always 'minnows'. Your 'these sides are sh1t therefore it doesn't count' theory is a joke. You're going to have to come up with something far better in order to justify yourself Danny. What if *gasp* Celtic or Rangers got relegated? Would you call for their return to the SPL? Would you then call them 'minnows' or a 'shadow of their former selves' ?

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Diego Forlan


But then again, what difference does it make, the precedence has already been set to allow non-English based clubs into that league, so allowing Rangers or Celtic in isn't anything groundbreaking here.

The precednet hasn't been set in the same sense. It's different.

For starters the League Of Wales was set up in 1992. This meant that, for the first time a proper National League, recognised by UEFA, had been set up in Wales. Before this, there was no point for a big Welsh club like Cardiff to go abck to Wales. There was nowhere for them to go, Diego! Not at that level of professionalism anyway!

Celtic and Rangers have been in a successful, famous, domestic league for decades. It's not as if the Scottish League has no talent either. It has supplied the European Cup winner before, and Celtic may yet win the UEFA Cup this season.

In my opinion, if the three Welsh Clubs went back to the Welsh league (and they were invited, but refused the offer) they would have more of a chance of European Football. The only way the three Welsh clubs could previously get into Europe was by winning the Welsh Cup. Now, they can't do that. They have to finish high in the premiers league (they have no chance) or win the English FA or League Cups. Celtic and Rangers would be forfeiting virtually guaranteed European games every season by coming to England, and like I said there is no reason to. They have been in their own legaue for decades, and it's not like the Wales situation where there was no professional set-up until 1992.

If you think Celtic should be playing in England Diego, then you need to look for a lot more reasons than just, "Wales clubs are in the English League." That's not good enough a reason.

Yet you still don't give an opinion. It's always personal. DO you think they should be in England. If so why??

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Diego Forlan
As for Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea, well I'm pretty certain all three were never in English leagues from day dot.

I'm quite sure they have bene actually, but I stand to be corrected. If they have been in a league other than the English one it would have been in the early 1900's.

Originally posted by Diego Forlan
... much like Celtic and Rangers - so that 'point' just got belted over long off for six.

Gee your argumentative skills are like that of a lawyer. Like I said earlier there was no professional set-up in Wales prior to 1992-ish, so it's not like a big Welsh club had anywhere to go. They had the option of going back to Wales to play in the LOW, refused it and will probably now wallow around in the lower divisions of England forever.

Originally posted by Diego Forlan


Also, given that Swansea were during the early eighties in the old English Division 1, and never fell out of the top 6 in one season, you can't say these sides were always 'minnows'. Your 'these sides are sh1t therefore it doesn't count' theory is a joke. You're going to have to come up with something far better in order to justify yourself Danny. What if *gasp* Celtic or Rangers got relegated? Would you call for their return to the SPL? Would you then call them 'minnows' or a 'shadow of their former selves' ?

It's hard to imagine big clubs with as much money as Celtic and Rangers struggling to any large extent but if they do struggle it's really irrelevant to the point. The point is they are Scottish clubs, and they should play in the Scottish League. English clubs should play in the English League. If Wales had a professional set-up prior to the early 1990's the three Welsh clubs would have no doubt been in that Legaue.

Why do you want Scottish clubs in the English League anyway? Do you support them or something?

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Shinboners
So, let me get this straight.

Celtic joining the EPL would set a bad precedent, and you mentioned German sides joining the French League or a Dutch team joining the Spanish League.

And now you're asking what relevance a Welsh team playing in England got to do with Celtic joining the EPL?

I thought your point was about precedents and farce. The only precedent here is your ability to shoot yourself in the foot with your farcical knowledge about soccer.

Missed this little gem! The only thing farcical is your ability to be totally unaware of the massive differences between the Welsh situation and the Scottish situation. Why you would even bother comparing the two is totally beyond comprehension.

Gee, I'm sure Cardiff and Swansea would have taken to the idea of going back to play amongst amateurs and semi-professionals prior to 1990.

In a sense they are clubs without a home. You cannot say the same thing aboutt Rangers and Celtic.

 

[moomba]

Dan26 must have also forgotten about the Kingzzzzzzzzzzzz in the NSL, Canadian sides in MLB, NBA, MHL when he was talking about precedents.

Moomba

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Dan26
Missed this little gem! The only thing farcical is your ability to be totally unaware of the massive differences between the Welsh situation and the Scottish situation. Why you would even bother comparing the two is totally beyond comprehension.

Gee, I'm sure Cardiff and Swansea would have taken to the idea of going back to play amongst amateurs and semi-professionals prior to 1990.

In a sense they are clubs without a home. You cannot say the same thing aboutt Rangers and Celtic.

The whole basis of your argument is that things are okay if it's a small club in a small league (Wales), but it's not okay if it's a big club in a bigger league (Scotland).

But the principle is the same - clubs playing in another nation's league. If it has worked for the Welsh teams (and it must have since they want to stay in the English leagues rather than move to the Welsh League), then there's no reason why it can't work for the Scottish Leagues. Sure, they may get to the stage of playing in England by different routes, but what's important is the end effect, and in respect to the clubs, if it didn't hurt the Welsh teams, then it certainly couldn't hurt the much larger Scottish clubs.

You said that it would be a bad precendent, but you were proven wrong when I pointed out that Welsh sides were already playing in England.

You've said it was farcical, because...well, just because....and well, I have to admit it's pretty hard to argue against a point without any substance.

 

[Diego Forlan]

Originally posted by Dan26
The precednet hasn't been set in the same sense. It's different.

For starters the League Of Wales was set up in 1992. This meant that, for the first time a proper National League, recognised by UEFA, had been set up in Wales. Before this, there was no point for a big Welsh club like Cardiff to go abck to Wales. There was nowhere for them to go, Diego! Not at that level of professionalism anyway!

Celtic and Rangers have been in a successful, famous, domestic league for decades. It's not as if the Scottish League has no talent either. It has supplied the European Cup winner before, and Celtic may yet win the UEFA Cup this season.

In my opinion, if the three Welsh Clubs went back to the Welsh league (and they were invited, but refused the offer) they would have more of a chance of European Football. The only way the three Welsh clubs could previously get into Europe was by winning the Welsh Cup. Now, they can't do that. They have to finish high in the premiers league (they have no chance) or win the English FA or League Cups. Celtic and Rangers would be forfeiting virtually guaranteed European games every season by coming to England, and like I said there is no reason to. They have been in their own legaue for decades, and it's not like the Wales situation where there was no professional set-up until 1992.

If you think Celtic should be playing in England Diego, then you need to look for a lot more reasons than just, "Wales clubs are in the English League." That's not good enough a reason.

Yet you still don't give an opinion. It's always personal. DO you think they should be in England. If so why??

It's either a precedent or it isn't - make up your mind, you can't have a bit each way.

You don't provide any actual reasoning, just melacholy dribble about not having a 'professional' set-up before 1992.

Or is your argument now based on the amount of European trophies won by Scottish teams? Whatever your 'point' actually is, your fast running out of straws to clutch, which isn't surprising.

 

[Pessimistic]

Originally posted by Dan26
I also think, Shinboners the presence of a Scottish team is a bit different to the Welsh teams. Scotland and England are the oldest rivals, and there is a bit more of a difference between the countries, than between England and Wales.

Be a good idea to ask a Brit what they think, but I'd suggest the emotion, and passion that would be generated by having a Scottish team in their Legaue would be a hugely different.

The sound of hairs being split.....

 

[Slax]

Originally posted by Deigo Forlan

As for Cardiff, Wrexham and Swansea, well I'm pretty certain all three were never in English leagues from day dot.

I think you might find yourself wrong here. Cardiff won the FA Cup back in 1926. The have been invovled in the FA since before Manchester United existed. The three clubs have been involved since the begining. This occurred for the same reason as there being a Welsh county side. The original FA was set up on the same structure as the English and Wales Cricket Board. It's just the Welsh never played football much. So no precedent really existed. FIFA and EUFA did not exist or had even been thought of then anyway.

Originally posted by moomba

Dan26 must have also forgotten about the Kingzzzzzzzzzzzz in the NSL, Canadian sides in MLB, NBA, MHL when he was talking about precedents.

Kingzzzzzzzz I'll give you but as for the other crap sports who cares about the NBA, NHL or baseball, this is a football(soccer) board.

 

[Slax]

The Scottish League has now moved into 9th position on the UEFA coefficent table above Turkey. This gives them automatic entry in the Champions league for 2004/05 with the runner-up entering the qualifying stages at round 3(final stage). So why move if you're gauranteed to be playing at least the final qualifying match for the Champions League if not in the tournament itself.

 

[moomba]

Originally posted by Slax
Kingzzzzzzzz I'll give you but as for the other crap sports who cares about the NBA, NHL or baseball, this is a football(soccer) board.

I'm sure you will get over it

Moomba

 

[robbieando]

Originally posted by Slax
So why move if you're gauranteed to be playing at least the final qualifying match for the Champions League if not in the tournament itself.

Easy, money and the chance to play against quality opposition more offen. The TV deal in Scotland only bring both Celtic and Rangers about 2 million pound each, in England its at least 10 times that. Add to the fact Ranger have long term debts of 52 million pounds and are cutting costs, while Celtic don't have the money to give O'Neill to buy the players he want (Plus I think they have some sort of short term debts to pay off soon).

Overall the Old Firm are losing money like never before and the offer of a gauranteed Champions League isn't enough to keep us in the hunt of European success in the long term. The risk of losing early on the European comps put both clubs at risk, but a move to England would mean 10 times the TV money, plus we can charge sponsors more because of the better standard of the league we are playing in plus in turn justify raising ticket prices.

England and no Champions League offers us more money than Scotland and the Champions League, and thats the all because of the sorry state of Scottish football at the moment.

 

[Diego Forlan]

Originally posted by robbieando
Easy, money and the chance to play against quality opposition more offen. The TV deal in Scotland only bring both Celtic and Rangers about 2 million pound each, in England its at least 10 times that. Add to the fact Ranger have long term debts of 52 million pounds and are cutting costs, while Celtic don't have the money to give O'Neill to buy the players he want (Plus I think they have some sort of short term debts to pay off soon).

Overall the Old Firm are losing money like never before and the offer of a gauranteed Champions League isn't enough to keep us in the hunt of European success in the long term. The risk of losing early on the European comps put both clubs at risk, but a move to England would mean 10 times the TV money, plus we can charge sponsors more because of the better standard of the league we are playing in plus in turn justify raising ticket prices.

England and no Champions League offers us more money than Scotland and the Champions League, and thats the all because of the sorry state of Scottish football at the moment.

Further to this, playing gun sides like Motherwell and Partick Thistle each week doesn't help Rangers or Celtic succeed in Europe. Quite clealry the calibre of teams in the EPL is far greater and would serve as better 'preparation' for Europe.

Don't forget the pulling power of the EPL means both clubs would be able to attract better players. Sure they have some great internationals now but theres still plenty who wouldn't play in Scotland. I think many of those would play in England though.

We must remember that this concept is completely unheard of, it might create a dangerous precedent

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by moomba
Dan26 must have also forgotten about the Kingzzzzzzzzzzzz in the NSL, Canadian sides in MLB, NBA, MHL when he was talking about precedents.

Moomba

The NBA and MLB situations are totally different. Any team from any country could theoretically enter those leagues. The Soccer sitaution is different. Each country has their own unique league. There is not one major competition (like the NBA or MLB.) There are many leagues, each representing that particular country. The Spanish League has Spanish clubs the French Legaue has French clubs etc. Allowing Rangers and Celtic into the EPL makes no sense.

I take it from your response you want them in then?

 

[robbieando]

Dan, you forget the fact that Scotland and England are the same country - The UNITED KINGDOM, thus any precidant set by this move would not effect the rest of the world like you seem to think it would.

Dan, 2 leagues have teams from different countries in them - the NSL and the English Leagues both with FIFA's blessing. The only thing stopping the move at the moment is the English FA who are luke warm on the idea and UEFA.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Shinboners
The whole basis of your argument is that things are okay if it's a small club in a small league (Wales), but it's not okay if it's a big club in a bigger league (Scotland).

That's not the basis of my argument at all. Stop making things up. The basis of my argument is that the Welsh clubs were in the English League before a professional set-up in Wales existed. What were they supposed to do prior to 1992? Go back and play amongst amateurs? Scotland have had a Legaue for over 100 years. It is not the same situation as Wales.

Originally posted by Shinboners
But the principle is the same - clubs playing in another nation's league.

That's a very simple way of looking at it. The simple way suits your argument, but unfortuantely it's not that simple.

Originally posted by Shinboners
If it has worked for the Welsh teams.

Gee, more mind-blowing detailed arguments! Of course it's worked for the bloody Welsh teams! They didn't have a professional legaue to go to before 1992. They had no choice.

Originally posted by Shinboners
....and it must have worked since they want to stay in the English leagues rather than move to the Welsh League...

Of course they want to stay in the Englsih legaue. Gee, you're a genius. A move to the Welsh league would ruin them financially. They would have to sell a large percentage of their players. The English League is a better League, even at a lower division level. The fact it's a better League doesn't mean it gives the right for every club to just come across for their own personal benefit.

Originally posted by Shinboners
...then there's no reason why it can't work for the Scottish Leagues.

No one is suggesting it won't work if it happened.. I'm sure both clubs would be successful and make a lot of money. The suggestion is that Rangers and Celic belong in the Scottish League. Not the English one.

Originally posted by Shinboners
You said that it would be a bad precendent, but you were proven wrong when I pointed out that Welsh sides were already playing in England.

Oh you pointed it out did you? Want a medal? Gee, without you I wouldn't have known. I already know the Welsh clubs operate in the English system, but as I have pointed out the situaion is not the same as the Scottish situation.

The only way you are comparing the two, is by making the most general vague comaprisons to deliberatley suit you, by saying, "Welsh clubs play in England, so why not Scottish?" Hilariously, that seems to be your entire argument.

Never mind the fact that Scotland has had a League set-up for 100 years and Wales hasn't. Nevermind that by forcing Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham back to Wales befoe 1992, would have meant putting them back amongst amateur and semi-professional clubs, even though one of them was an FA Cup winner! Nevermind that forcing them into a different Legaue would ruin them financially, whilst Celtic and Rangers are already in a League in the first place and don't have to contend with a move.

 

[moomba]

Originally posted by Dan26
The NBA and MLB situations are totally different. Any team from any country could theoretically enter those leagues. The Soccer sitaution is different. Each country has their own unique league. There is not one major competition (like the NBA or MLB.) There are many leagues, each representing that particular country. The Spanish League has Spanish clubs the French Legaue has French clubs etc. Allowing Rangers and Celtic into the EPL makes no sense.

NHL? NSL?

I take it from your response you want them in then?

You can take from my response that if it doesn't go ahead, it won't be for fear of setting a precedent.

Moomba

 

[Shinboners]

Originally posted by Dan26
That's not the basis of my argument at all. Stop making things up. The basis of my argument is that the Welsh clubs were in the English League before a professional set-up in Wales existed. What were they supposed to do prior to 1992? Go back and play amongst amateurs? Scotland have had a Legaue for over 100 years. It is not the same situation as Wales.

So, it was just a matter of convenience for the Welsh clubs to play in the English Leagues. An accident of history. Did you know that Scottish clubs used to play in the English FA Cup? Sure, it might be a Cup and not the League, but the precedent has been set there.

You posted earlier that it would be embarassing for a club from one country to win a League for another country, but it didn't seem to bother people then that a Scottish club could win the English FA Cup just like it doesn't seem to bother people now that a Welsh club could win a League title or FA Cup, either now or in the future (well, in the future since now seems somewhat
unlikely).

That's a very simple way of looking at it. The simple way suits your argument, but unfortuantely it's not that simple.

Ah, I see. Someone who needed something as simple as the away goals rule explained to them (No Dan, the away goals really don't count for double), now understands the intricacies of why people would like to see Celtic and Rangers in the Premiership.

By the way, I notice that you haven't replied to Robbieandro's comments on this issue.

Gee, more mind-blowing detailed arguments! Of course it's worked for the bloody Welsh teams! They didn't have a professional legaue to go to before 1992. They had no choice.

Of course they want to stay in the Englsih legaue. Gee, you're a genius. A move to the Welsh league would ruin them financially. They would have to sell a large percentage of their players. The English League is a better League, even at a lower division level. The fact it's a better League doesn't mean it gives the right for every club to just come across for their own personal benefit.

Ah, I see the Welsh Leagues have suddenly become relevant again when they suit your argument.

The Welsh sides obviously see a benefit of being a part of the English Leagues rather than the Welsh League, but that benefit was an accident of history. But why deny the Scottish giants the same benefits? It seems to me that not only would Rangers and Celtic benefit, but every other team in the English Premiership would benefit too from larger crowds and greater interest. Hey, the TV companies might get sucked into spending more money on the rights as well.

No one is suggesting it won't work if it happened.. I'm sure both clubs would be successful and make a lot of money. The suggestion is that Rangers and Celic belong in the Scottish League. Not the English one.

Well, that's your view. I'd be happy to see them in the Premiership.

Oh you pointed it out did you? Want a medal? Gee, without you I wouldn't have known. I already know the Welsh clubs operate in the English system, but as I have pointed out the situaion is not the same as the Scottish situation.

Could've sworn that in your first post, you had no idea (or maybe it was just your repuation). Gee, and slipping in a quote about Leeds to show you knew that Welsh clubs played in England - wow, that's conclusive evidence.

The only way you are comparing the two, is by making the most general vague comaprisons to deliberatley suit you, by saying, "Welsh clubs play in England, so why not Scottish?" Hilariously, that seems to be your entire argument.

You were the one talking about precedents. I merely showed that you were unaware that the precedent had been set and, as Pessimistic pointed out, you've had to resort to splitting hairs to save yourself.

Never mind the fact that Scotland has had a League set-up for 100 years and Wales hasn't. Nevermind that by forcing Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham back to Wales befoe 1992, would have meant putting them back amongst amateur and semi-professional clubs, even though one of them was an FA Cup winner! Nevermind that forcing them into a different Legaue would ruin them financially, whilst Celtic and Rangers are already in a League in the first place and don't have to contend with a move.

Gee, repeating your argument for the umpteeth time doesn't make it any more convincing than the first time.

 

[Shinboners]

By the way, can we get back to the original purpose of this thread?

After their UEFA Cup results, how do you think Celtic would go in the Premiership?

I reckon they'd go okay after their results against Blackburn and Liverpool.

Discuss.

 

[Diego Forlan]

Originally posted by Shinboners
Ah, I see. Someone who needed something as simple as the away goals rule explained to them (No Dan, the away goals really don't count for double),

Please say it ain't so...