Changes v St Kilda

[JimmyBeerCans]

If we can get one, great, but we'll be getting one rated as highly as Schulz was when he came home ie not highly, worth about a Mitch Farmer.

For every Schulz in this scenario, there's 10 useless players who never get on the park.

Harvey has kicked 3 before half time

#PlayHarvey

 

[b0ydman]

Care factor pretty low this year, obvious reasons

I just saw Sam Gray is in the team. Oh dear

Ken, like your game day tactics, you've run out of ideas

Very sad that Moore, Young, S Gray, Butcher, Kane Mitchell, all look like spuds.

Aside from getting lucky with Wingard and Wines, we haven't developed much have we.

Polec is not about PAFC development, neither is Ebert, who has been terrible, just abominably horrendous this season

Even Pittard is still spud # 1

How the heck did we do it last year?

Something has changed- coaching, support coaches, tactics. But to see the team go backwards like we have, and see the players simply not develop, has been heartbreaking

I really wonder what Impey and Neade have in them. Granted im happy to give them a few years like Colhoun

But Sam Gray is 23. He has no upside. He, like his plod friend Kane Mitchell, Sandover medallist, simply aren't up to AFL standard. Seriously Ken, I mean, really? Aside from that one charity giggle game vs Brisbane last year, where even the 600lb fat man would have kicked 3 goals, he's been abominable (no, hang on, 3 acceptable passages of play in a game 6 or so weeks ago IIRC)

While we are hoping to make the finals, by other teams falling over, to put Sam Gray in the team is simply astonishing. Its like how on earth the team and coach allowed Kane Mitchell to be on the oval, in the centre- where he was there to be the link receive kick person- when we had the free kick on the back right wing, i will never know

Ken and the players should be ashamed, because Kane did, what Kane does, which is **** it up

So to name and play Sam Gray is just wasting your, my and his time, as well as the time of another player we should be playing

But then we still play Mothership McSpud Monfries, so I guess anything is possible.

Lord I hope they cull deep this season. We have some serious dead wood on our list

Boak, Wines, Ebert, Polec, Wingard, Hartlett, Trengrove, Gray. Build around them

Add some good players around them and we can be a very good team. We have those players for many years to come

But selecting Sam Gray just says to me Ken has run out of ideas, as we see on game day, where deep in the 4th the players say "**** it, lets just go hard and throw Kens plan out the window"...but by then its too late

I simply cannot for the life of me see why we aren't getting games into some others on our list

Question: Over the last 10 years, does Port have the least Rising Star nominations of all clubs?

Edit: Did I just read that Mofries got dropped? Okay. That is a good sign. Maybe Gray will beat his opponent in a 1 on 1 for us. That will be something Mongfries hasn't done in s long time

 

[b0ydman]

Damned if im going to start bagging players in a port shirt who give their all, get sent back to the 2s and continue to give their all. It's been a poor season all round but cmon - get behind them.

Professional footballers. they are accountable

and If they have a hashtag and tweet, well, they're open season

 

[El_Scorcho]

Harvey has kicked 3 before half time

#PlayHarvey

Absolutely. I can handle Butcher being delisted, but I can't handle us repeating the mistakes we made with Harvey and the others.

 

[b0ydman]

Supporters not going to a game because someone they don't like in the team is playing? We have Some very strange supporters.

Not the player, but about the player

its reflective of how Ken is fiddling with the team.

so do we empty out the forward line, push Schultz to D50 again, run and slingshot, no one home, Sam tries to do a Mitchell or Monfries and kick beyond their limit from 40, fisted through for a point?

its not Sam per se, its that Sam Gray is the best Ken can come up with. which says we will in most likelihood see more of the same tomorrow, as we've seen all year

 

[bomberclifford]

If we can get one, great, but we'll be getting one rated as highly as Schulz was when he came home ie not highly, worth about a Mitch Farmer.

For every Schulz in this scenario, there's 10 useless players who never get on the park.

The point I was trying to make (admittedly, quite obtusely) is that Schulz was as maligned as Butcher is when he made the shift to Port. Highly rated as a young prospect, had an incumbent forward that ******ed his development, was on the outer of his initial club before deciding to move.

#playbutch #neverberichmond

 

[b0ydman]

I used to live down the street from Sams fathers business in fulham gardens. Where he relocated from the mid north. I had a chat with him and he was a top country bloke. I reckon this is a feel good story which has another chapter or two. Sam has the tools to make a good Afl player and i hope for his sake he makes it. I can still remember his debut when he kicked three nice goals. Good luck this weekend Sam and the boys.

Sorry Mrs Gray, but he doesn't

He's 23. Unless he is 6 foot 6, he won't grow taller, won't be faster, won't react quicker.

Just won't happen.

He's like Butcher. Probably a great bloke and lovely family.

But neither are AFL standard

 

[El_Scorcho]

The point I was trying to make (admittedly, quite obtusely) was that Schulz was as maligned as Butcher was when he made the shift to Port. Highly rated as a young prospect, had an incumbent forward that ******ed his development, was on the outer of his initial club before deciding to move.

#playbutch #neverberichmond

Yeah that's my bad, I read it wrong.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Absolutely. I can handle Butcher being delisted, but I can't handle us repeating the mistakes we made with Harvey and the others.

We'll be fed the "he's not ready" crap though I fear, we want to blood a big kid that can park himself in the forward line not another bloke running 150 metres up the field chasing the play... having said that his mobility is not as bad as some make it out to be.

#PlayHarvey

 

[El_Scorcho]

We'll be fed the "he's not ready" crap though I fear, we want to blood a big kid that can park himself in the forward line not another bloke running 150 metres up the field chasing the play... having said that his mobility is not as bad as some make it out to be.

#PlayHarvey

Agree. By the way some people talk about him, he's a mid 80s lumbering Ruckman type.

He's mobile enough to be a Ben Brown type old fashioned big bodied marking forward. Strong hands as well. Exactly what we need.

 

[b0ydman]

We don't need anyone anywhere at the moment. The season is finished.

What we do need to do is make sure we're best placed to make this a down season in an otherwise upward trend, instead of seeing 2014 as a fluke. That means sorting out the enormous elephant in the room of our list, key position forward.

Lobbe has been very droppable for a couple of months at least. In that time we could have moved Ryder to 1st ruck and gotten desperately needed games into Harvey or Butcher. We just continue to ignore the fact that we need to develop a KPF, and even though our season has been dead for several weeks, we're continuing to ignore it.

We don't have the money to attract a good KPF, and we'll have to pay an arm and a leg to get one. Instead, we could just develop one of our own, but we have made the deliberate decision not to in the past 2 years. Every other position on the ground can be sorted by trading and the free agency. In our current position, we almost certainly can't do that.

It was a problem in March 2014. In August 2015, it's a crisis that's set to derail the flag window we thought we'd be moving into. Make no mistake, we're already too late. The best we can do now is mitigate the problem by picking Harvey or Butcher immediately and hope whoever we give the opportunity to is a contributing AFL level player.

Schulz is holding out on a contract because he knows full well that we have failed to develop a genuine understudy. He knows that we need him, and he knows that we'll eventually give him what he wants, because the alternative is going into next season aiming to win a flag with a key forward setup lacking AFL experience.

I don't know about Schultz, but the board have been derelict in allowing the match selection committee (also incompetent) not to blood new forwards with game time

ryder is 25/75 he won't play next year. he knowingly took PEDS will get 1 or 2 years.

We have failed badly this year- gone backwards, to the clubs detriment

 

[LukeSA]

Remember when Schulz was playing at Richmond and wasn't getting the opportunities because of an ageing, but established forward in Richardson?

Remember when Schulz then left Richmond to go to a club that gave him an opportunity to establish himself as a key forward by playing him through inconsistent form?

Remember when Port decided it needed to persist with the young, developing KPF on its list for the benefit of future development of the team?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

 

[Janus]

We don't need anyone anywhere at the moment. The season is finished.

What we do need to do is make sure we're best placed to make this a down season in an otherwise upward trend, instead of seeing 2014 as a fluke. That means sorting out the enormous elephant in the room of our list, key position forward.

Lobbe has been very droppable for a couple of months at least. In that time we could have moved Ryder to 1st ruck and gotten desperately needed games into Harvey or Butcher. We just continue to ignore the fact that we need to develop a KPF, and even though our season has been dead for several weeks, we're continuing to ignore it.

We don't have the money to attract a good KPF, and we'll have to pay an arm and a leg to get one. Instead, we could just develop one of our own, but we have made the deliberate decision not to in the past 2 years. Every other position on the ground can be sorted by trading and the free agency. In our current position, we almost certainly can't do that.

It was a problem in March 2014. In August 2015, it's a crisis that's set to derail the flag window we thought we'd be moving into. Make no mistake, we're already too late. The best we can do now is mitigate the problem by picking Harvey or Butcher immediately and hope whoever we give the opportunity to is a contributing AFL level player.

Schulz is holding out on a contract because he knows full well that we have failed to develop a genuine understudy. He knows that we need him, and he knows that we'll eventually give him what he wants, because the alternative is going into next season aiming to win a flag with a key forward setup lacking AFL experience.

Nah, the only one who said it was a problem last year were a whole lot of sycophants who are relics of a bygone age where all a forward had to do was mark and kick goals. The cry was the loudest during July/August where every loser and his dog was saying about how we wouldn't even make finals and how we'd be slaughtered anyway so why bother turning up. Next thing you know, we're smashing Carlton and Richmond and those same people were nowhere to be seen, or worse yet, admit that they were wrong.

Mitch Harvey is a Pick 35 player who has had the grand total of two years in the system in a position that is notoriously difficult to develop. He's not a Cameron/Patton/Daniher/Hawkins/Franklin/Roughead/Boyd/Walker type that was plug and play right from the start and only needed to get up to the speed of AFL football. The last thing this club needs is for a bunch of armchair critics to get on his back and say he'll never make it, which is exactly what would happen if we play him right now. It happened with Butcher, and it's happening now with other players on our list.

The AFL isn't a development league. He's not going to learn how to be a premier key forward by gifting him games that he doesn't deserve, but by working on his craft to the point where he believes in himself and knows he belongs on the big stage. You all think this is some sort of console game where if you play these kids in the first team their experience and therefore their development will be fast tracked, but tell me what happens when Harvey plays as you advocate and he gets the grand total of 5 touches, 0 goals and his defender runs off him all day because it's clear that he's lost at sea? The Bulldogs paid an extraordinary amount for Tom Boyd, who was a Pick 1. Is he playing this weekend? No, he's in the reserves because he's not up to the task at this stage.

It was hilarious hearing the bleating about us not playing Clurey last year when Trengove and Carlile got injured, because it happened the year before with Hombsch. He plays this year after honing his craft in the SANFL and everyone conveniently forgets about what they said, because it would be an acknowledgement of their ignorance when it comes to building a team that has enough trust in each other to go all the way. If Harvey is going to make it, it's not going to be from playing a couple of games at the end of the season. Because you know what would be worse than him getting 5 touches, 0 goals and his defender running off him all day? If he manages to do exactly what you want him to do for those few games, gets dubbed 'The Future' and is summarily criticized at every turn if he doesn't develop the way we hope he does.

We play Harvey when he's ready, both as a football player and to deal with the pressure and so we never have to have a John Butcher situation happen again. I'd hate to be a young key forward knowing that there are some fans out there that pin the hopes and dreams of the success of the entire club's fortunes on my shoulders as you do. Please don't do the same thing you did with Butcher to Harvey, because it's just going to make matters worse for the poor kid. Good intentions and all that jazz.

 

[El Zorro]

<rant>

Man, talk about a meltdown. Some of you are the biggest soft****, fairweather supporters I've ever come across. And some of you even have a go at Crows supporters for being soft and turning on their own club/players. Pull yourselves together and go support your ****ing team!

</rant>

 

[El_Scorcho]

That's a new one.

Now people who championed Butcher's cause and called for him to be given a run of games at AFL level are are at fault?

Jesus Christ.

Butcher is not an old fashioned mark and goal type player and nobody asking for him to play expected him to lead out of the square. When he did play, he provided leads up the ground, F50 defensive pressure and a lot of effort as well as goals.

By your standard, we'll never play any key forward ever. Notice how every other club in the league bar maybe Hawthorn has managed to play a developing KPF this year?

Harvey won't have the pressure that Butcher had.

The AFL is a better development league for key forwards than the SANFL, which is not a good key forwards league.

The longer we ignore the need to develop a KPF and hope someone will learn to be an AFL quality KPF in the SANFL, the higher the pressure will be on the player that eventually does come in.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Thursday afternoon next week after Mitch Harvey's three goal game in the wet today:

Sam Gray: Ken, I got some bad news. El_Scorcho ran over me with a couple of cars. I won't be able to play today.
Kern: Well, I'll just have to go to my backup plan. Mitch, how's your tank feeling?
Mitch Harvey: Great!
Kern: Good. Run this note over to the referee.
Harvey: ... 'we forfeit'?

 

[El_Scorcho]

The notion that we can't pick developing talls because they might get their feelings hurt by supporters if they do well or even if they don't is ridiculous.

Butcher was a special case where he exploded out of the blocks at a time where we had SFA in terms of key forwards and was dubbed "the future" and was a top 10 pick.

Harvey, Shaw and Howard won't have any of that.

 

[Zombie]

I reckon we might see a late change tomorrow, Monfries in for Trengove...

 

[Hardcore]

Lol pick butcher


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[AJJPAFC]

I don't know about Schultz, but the board have been derelict in allowing the match selection committee (also incompetent) not to blood new forwards with game time

ryder is 25/75 he won't play next year. he knowingly took PEDS will get 1 or 2 years.

We have failed badly this year- gone backwards, to the clubs detriment

Mate, be anymore negative and they'll find you swinging from a branch somewhere. Chill the **** out.

 

[b0ydman]

<rant>

Man, talk about a meltdown. Some of you are the biggest soft****, fairweather supporters I've ever come across. And some of you even have a go at Crows supporters for being soft and turning on their own club/players. Pull yourselves together and go support your ******* team!

</rant>

yeah, is that like where you put a # in front of some words and it makes everything better all of the sudden?

 

[b0ydman]

tell me what happens when Harvey plays as you advocate and he gets the grand total of 5 touches, 0 goals and his defender runs off him all day because it's clear that he's lost at sea?

Ah, the downside. Yes, what could go wrong. Hide the players, don't blood them, don't give them a taste

Fear. Of. Failure

The way to run the mighty Port Adelaide Football Club

Yeah, what could happen. He plays well at AFL level, and we hide him because we don't want him to fail after that

Or, he does ok, and he thinks, yeah, i like that, i want that, im going to have more endeavour and effort now

or he does what is expected, 5 touches, and he soaks it up, and knows what he needs to do when its time to play him

Janus, when did you become such a defeatist?

In 2005 we kicked 29 goals against Hawthorn. They blooded some players then, it stood them in good touch i'd say.

Even in the EPL they pick kids for the bench, soak it up, get a few minutes to experience it

Whats so wrong with doing that for Harvey or the others?

Or do we just put Gray out there to be the whipping boy? the sacrificial lamb for the others, take all the heat off the players we're cotton wooling

 

[Janus]

That's a new one.

Now people who championed Butcher's cause and called for him to be given a run of games at AFL level are are at fault?

Jesus Christ.

Butcher is not an old fashioned mark and goal type player and nobody asking for him to play expected him to lead out of the square. When he did play, he provided leads up the ground, F50 defensive pressure and a lot of effort as well as goals.

By your standard, we'll never play any key forward ever. Notice how every other club in the league bar maybe Hawthorn has managed to play a developing KPF this year?

Harvey won't have the pressure that Butcher had.

The AFL is a better development league for key forwards than the SANFL, which is not a good key forwards league.

The longer we ignore the need to develop a KPF and hope someone will learn to be an AFL quality KPF in the SANFL, the higher the pressure will be on the player that eventually does come in.

I wish there was a way you could separate the space-time continuum so we could see the direction we would go if we went down your path. There's more to it then just developing a key forward. Why do you think Wines went ballistic at Butcher in Round 1 when he shanked that field kick? It's because if you're playing at an AFL level - if you are setting the standards for what the Port Adelaide football club expects from its players - then you can't give excuses as to why some players get picked and some don't. There is a minimum level of trust that must be earned from the playing group, a belief that no matter what, this player will do the job that has been assigned to them for as long as humanly possible.

You're looking it from a tactical/football perspective, and if the game was just played on paper then of course we would be better served getting some AFL experience into Harvey. But when Harvey gets a game, it does the following things. It tells the players there is no hope of playing finals anymore, even though there is. It tells the team that their are certain rules for some players and not others - wouldn't Butcher feel aggrieved if, after putting better performances than Harvey did last year and not getting a game, Mitch was given a guernsey? Wouldn't that also make the rest of the players question whether elite standards were in place at the club?

I'm not asking him to be an AFL quality KPF. But he needs to be an AFL quality player if he's going to be given games when we are still in the race for finals, period. And he just isn't that right now. The path you are advocating is exactly the reason why this year happened. Matthew Primus also believed in getting games into the kids - but getting a game and playing the game are two vastly different things. Doing it that way can consolidate and reinforce bad habits just the same as it can do it for good ones. Far better to be in a team that you feel like you've earned your spot through consistent performances and truly belong at the level then sheepishly walk into the changerooms knowing that the only reason you are there is because the guys around you didn't get the job done, IMO.

I want Harvey to succeed just as I wanted Butcher to. When we're out of the finals race and we rest Ryder for the rest of the year (because he's only managing his achilles problem at the moment), I've got no problem in playing Harvey because the playing group isn't going to think anything of it other than what you are thinking - that it's just about getting some games into a promising key forward and giving him a taste of the action. You've given up on the season, I haven't. It's just that simple. But it's only one loss away.

Now, if we lose that one game or somehow our slim chance is otherwise dashed and we are STILL playing guys like S.Gray...then of course, fly from the top turnbuckle. I'll hold Hinkley down.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I disagree that picking Harvey tells the players that there's no chance of playing finals anymore.

Did Sydney tank by picking Nankervis? Did Freo tank by picking Taberner?

These guys aren't AFL level but those teams understood that they needed to play those guys when they had the chance to, even when in the finals race.

Harvey would offer more to our side right now than Sam Gray. Any of our developing talks would have offered as much or more than Paul Stewart, who was picked on his form as a halfback/midfielder to play pseudo marking forward.

He offered zero to our team.

Let's not even go into Butcher's omissions and replacements in the past 2 years when he was playing well enough to keep his place.

Not picking a developing key forward has been the wrong decision for 2 years now.

There is a clear problem in our coaches box in regard to this and the hole we're digging only gets deeper. We should have been picking butcher for 2 years

 

[ploppy]

i love the bit "were a whole lot of sycophants who are relics of a bygone age where all a forward had to do was mark and kick goals."......please if all our forwards do is mark and kick goals then i would be a very happy man...