Cheap Ruckman?

[SweetLeftFoot]

Hales is in fighting fitness! No luck there.

Seriously, and I have hurled my share of abuse at him, Hale is a decent footballer.

He got stuffed by that big bastard Hille smashing his head open just as he was finding excellent form as a 1st ruck. Then the imbecile Laidley decided to make him a FF.

He's not a FF. But in a forward line with Jurrah and Watts for defenders to worry about, he could be very handy.

If you punt out Jones for a decent 2nd rounder and give us that for Hales, then both sides win IMO.

 

[RandB]

I'd be happy to give up a second rounder. Honestly, we've got enough young players as it is. I'd be happy to swap one 18 year old for one experienced 26 year old in a position we badly need reinforcements.

Most AFL clubs have a reasonable spread of youth, it comes down to how good they are and the reality is (whether we like to accept it or not) that we still have many unproven kids.

If we give our 2nd pick away (assuming our 3rd wouldn't get that much in the ND) we are looking at just 1 pick this year in the ND. After this year it will be slim pickings, as we improve our picks will decline down the order and as other teams use (GC) compensation picks our picks will decline even further.

It's a huge call IMO to put ourselves in this situation simply to upgrade a poor ruckman to an almost-as-poor ruckman when we would only be using him to fill the gaps for 1 year possibly 2. The improvement we get from Hale over PJ is not worth our 2nd pick IMO.

 

[Den11]

I think Hale would be a good option if it means we get rid of Johnson, Meesen is already gone and we would look seriously at what we do with Spencer. We would have good backup and and possibly someone who will be at the peak of his powers in three years time.

If it was 12months ago i would have taken over Hale Jamar but now as we know it is completely different. He has shown talent over the years so why dont we take the gamble and see what he produces if given the game time.

It would also free Jamar up to play forward as Bailey had wanted to be able to do this season

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

i think hale is a good option, we can easily figure another couple of trades in order to upgrade our picks, and we would get good compensation if Bruce goes (still very much an unkown), i think it is worth it, he has kicked 37 goals as a 2nd ruckman (at the same time averaging 11 hitouts) thats quite a good output IMO for a second ruckman (basically a 30 goal bonus on PJ)

 

[RandB]

i think hale is a good option, we can easily figure another couple of trades in order to upgrade our picks, and we would get good compensation if Bruce goes (still very much an unkown), i think it is worth it, he has kicked 37 goals as a 2nd ruckman (at the same time averaging 11 hitouts) thats quite a good output IMO for a second ruckman (basically a 30 goal bonus on PJ)

If there are other genuine trades the club is looking at that may get us an upgrade in picks (such that we use a 2nd rounder in the ND) then it eases the liability somewhat.

I'd hardly use that as a rationale though in context of getting Hale when we have nothing to go by as yet. To simply say we can "easily" do this is a bit misguided - yes we can easily give away players but they have to be players we don't need and we are prepared to jettison that other clubs want, otherwise the whole thing is pointless. Bruce would get us a 2nd rounder but how likely is he to go?

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

If there are other genuine trades the club is looking at that may get us an upgrade in picks (such that we use a 2nd rounder in the ND) then it eases the liability somewhat.

I'd hardly use that as a rationale though in context of getting Hale when we have nothing to go by as yet. To simply say we can "easily" do this is a bit misguided - yes we can easily give away players but they have to be players we don't need and we are prepared to jettison that other clubs want, otherwise the whole thing is pointless. Bruce would get us a 2nd rounder but how likely is he to go?

yeah i see what you mean, players who we could probably trade out would only be Maric, Bate and Martin i guess, there would be interest in Jones and Bruce, but i wouldn't want to give Jones up. Bruce maybe, while he has a place in our team next year, the year after im not so sure. Apparently there might be some interest in Warnock but i would rather keep him.

 

[Andy_Mac]

If Hale is worth a second rounder then the only way i'd be happy with it is if was via a three way deal with the hawks.

Warnock to Hawthorn
Hale to Melbourne
Hawks 2nd round to Norf

Martin and TMac as back up KPD, with us looking for a KPP that can play at either end with P12.

 

[RandB]

If Hale is worth a second rounder then the only way i'd be happy with it is if was via a three way deal with the hawks.

Warnock to Hawthorn
Hale to Melbourne
Hawks 2nd round to Norf

Martin and TMac as back up KPD, with us looking for a KPP that can play at either end with P12.

If MFC are hell bent on getting Hale then that is not such a bad way of doing it even though I think the other 2 clubs slightly come out on top.

I wouldn't bother mentioning Martin in the context of anything though.

 

[Den11]

I think though if the above trade went ahead we might see the best of Martin as they would be forced to put him back into the defence permanently, a position which he did very well in a couple of seasons ago.

Martin was a more then capable CHB and could do the job again if so needed

 

[The Dr]

I think though if the above trade went ahead we might see the best of Martin as they would be forced to put him back into the defence permanently, a position which he did very well in a couple of seasons ago.

Martin was a more then capable CHB and could do the job again if so needed

I also still have faith in Martin. He was very very servicable a year or two back as a KPD. It's his best position and I'd like to see him given more chances back there.

The above three-way trade looks fairly even imo

 

[Andy_Mac]

If MFC are hell bent on getting Hale then that is not such a bad way of doing it even though I think the other 2 clubs slightly come out on top.

I wouldn't bother mentioning Martin in the context of anything though.

I actually think it could be a blessing. I rated the SME as a defender, and with no Warnock and Hale in the side he is back to being dedicated to one position.

I think it’s fraught with danger to draft a player with limited experience then proceed to try to teach them how to play every position on the ground.

SME is a pea heart with limited footballing nous, but if you put him at full back he can follow his man around and will rarely be forced to put his body on the line.

 

[RandB]

I actually think it could be a blessing. I rated the SME as a defender, and with no Warnock and Hale in the side he is back to being dedicated to one position.

I think it’s fraught with danger to draft a player with limited experience then proceed to try to teach them how to play every position on the ground.

Yeah, no doubt he was stuffed around to his detriment but that is neither here nor there. The point is why was he stuffed around? The reason is that Warnock became a prominent defender and Martin was bumped as Warnock was clearly the better option. We are now at the stage where Warnock is struggling for a spot due to other defenders coming on and the game requiring more run. How this bodes well for Martin I don't know. The scary thing about Martin is that (regardless of where he plays) he is actually going backwards as a footballer in the modern game which is scary at 24.

He has a chance to improve while he still plays for us (if the club lets him) but even then he has a very long road to go IMO.

SME is a pea heart with limited footballing nous, but if you put him at full back he can follow his man around and will rarely be forced to put his body on the line.

I agree with the pea heart (to an extent), I agree he has limited fooballing nouse (if any), I agree that he'll spend all day following his man (ie chasing) and I agree he is not condusive to putting his body on the line.

Conclusion: Don't play him.

 

[Supermercado]

Warms my heart to see the Experience getting a run in here. Lest we forget the original name was for our whole defence as The Stefan Martin Experience featuring Matthew Warnock. Then about a week later he got sent forward and it stopped making sense.

 

[roomachine]

If MFC are hell bent on getting Hale then that is not such a bad way of doing it even though I think the other 2 clubs slightly come out on top.

I wouldn't bother mentioning Martin in the context of anything though.

Come on, North are not going to part with Hale for pick 35(ish). It won't happen.

 

[Dez!]

Come on, North are not going to part with Hale for pick 35(ish). It won't happen.

Good then it works out for everyone, we don't waste a pick trading for Paul Johnson MkII and you keep David Hale who you seem to rate exceptionally high.

 

[roomachine]

Good then it works out for everyone, we don't waste a pick trading for Paul Johnson MkII and you keep David Hale who you seem to rate exceptionally high.

Don't bother writing to me, write to your football department.

If they have bothered to do a medical, then they are realistically looking at getting him, they would also be aware that there are other suitors in the market and they will have to be aware of what he is realistically going to cost them.

 

[RandB]

tbh I feel sorry for Martin because he was (IMO) terribly mismanaged and I question the whole process behind how he was picked. It wasn't through a lack of trying that he didn't lock down a position.

The impression I get is that the club looked at a "likely" basketballer type and thought yeah we'll give him a run and see what the can do. The fact that he was behind the 8 ball wrt to footy basics was not a major concern. The problem with these type of recruits is that you have to give them very simply but specific development - we were naive with what we expected of him and how he was used (more or less as a floater across half back).

It is no coincidence that Brogan for Port and Goldstein for North (fellow ex-basketballers) are more accomplished footballers. Their respective clubs threw them straight into the ruck (either at senior or reserves), gave them a clear roll and kept them there where they developed hardened bodies and basic football mongrel not to mention actually learn how to ruck. Martin severely lacks these fundamentals as a 24 yr old and the way we have been blasé with how we have prepared him tells me that there was no real plan in place in the first place. Had we planted him in ruck development years ago I have no doubt that Martin would be a more confident footballer around the ground as well.

You don't recruit a basketballer who knows nothing about footy and expect them to lock down CHB.

 

[RandB]

Come on, North are not going to part with Hale for pick 35(ish). It won't happen.

There's more chance of Pia Miller parting her legs for Cameron Ling than us parting with pick 12.

 

[Andy_Mac]

Yeah, no doubt he was stuffed around to his detriment but that is neither here nor there. The point is why was he stuffed around? The reason is that Warnock became a prominent defender and Martin was bumped as Warnock was clearly the better option. We are now at the stage where Warnock is struggling for a spot due to other defenders coming on and the game requiring more run. How this bodes well for Martin I don't know. The scary thing about Martin is that (regardless of where he plays) he is actually going backwards as a footballer in the modern game which is scary at 24.[/font][/color]


Conclusion: Don't play him.

He was stuffed around because he had the "scope" to play in other roles were as Warnock didn't. We have plenty of KPD and accordingly we tried to turn him into a forward come ruckman.

I agree with your conclusion, don't play him unless: Rivers, Frawley or Garland go down. SME was and I have faith he could recapture his form as a KPD and be suitable coverage as a third tall defender if required. Warnock has currency and is too good to be left playing VFL footy for another 12 months at which point his contract expires and he walks.

 

[roomachine]

There's more chance of Pia Miller parting her legs for Cameron Ling than us parting with pick 12.

I agree, that's why he won't be ending up at Melbourne.

If Melbourne parted with pick 12 (?), then I would be a shocked as you.

 

[RandB]

He was stuffed around because he had the "scope" to play in other roles were as Warnock didn't. We have plenty of KPD and accordingly we tried to turn him into a forward come ruckman.

Sadly Martin has had no scope anywhere due to not having football fundamentals and the proof is in the pudding. This is actually the exact reason why Martin is currently in no man's land. The whole "we could try him here or there" mentality is what has killed his career and is probably why he was recruited with no specific plan in the first place. In the real world it takes a clear plan, hard work and development not just plugging holes.

MFC has just gone through one of its biggest list transformations in history. If ever there was a time for a player to stake their claim on a position it was the last 3 years as we got rid of more than half our squad and flooded it with raw players. Going forward it will be incredibly tough.

 

[The Dr]

Come on, North are not going to part with Hale for pick 35(ish). It won't happen.

I love it how you write as if your opinion is fact.

Most posters seem to agree that his worth is a second or even third rounder. You believe he's worth more than that, but that's your opinion and nothing else.

Pretty sure the list managers of both clubs aren't big footy posters.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

I agree, that's why he won't be ending up at Melbourne.

If Melbourne parted with pick 12 (?), then I would be a shocked as you.

to be honest i can't understand why the kangaroos think they will be getting a high pick for him, if we look at it critically

1. Hale played half the year in the VFL, and had a poor year last year

2. North have good ruck stocks in Goldstein, MacIntosh, Daw,etc and do not need him

3. North supporters seemingly DO NOT WANT HIM at their club next year, so you can assume that the list management department thinks similarly and will do something about getting rid of a 26 year old ruckman who would cost them more then he would return

4. with the GC holding many first round picks, it is imperative for each club to hold onto their own

5. Have GC even declared interest?? there is a lot of assumptions about many players that because they are out of contract the GC must want them

6. Clubs you state are better suited to Hale:

Saints, have Gardiner, McEvoy as their first pair next year, with Stanley a ruck prospect and Kosi having played some of his best footy in the Ruck

Hawks, obviously in need of a Ruck, and they may give up a first rounder for Hale, since the rest of their team is pretty balanced

GC, Have first choice of draftees, so they will have the opportunity to choose Gorringe and/or Lycett, two very promising Rucks. Zac Smith has been one of the better rucks in the VFL and will be their starting ruck next year, they are rumoured to be interested in numerous other rucks such as Fraser, McEvoy and Jacobs. Also they are building a team, with good players likely to still be around @ 26 they might opt to draft one

Basically if the GC want him @ 26 they can have him, and im sure most other clubs will feel that way as well

 

[Rudeurrection]

Hale for pick 35 would get the job done IMO.

Norf will be very happy to trade a Norf Ballarat regular to us for a second rounder.

Id much rather Hale at Melbourne than Blake or West.

 

[RandB]

I agree, that's why he won't be ending up at Melbourne.

Well it begs the question then, apart from GC where else do you think he'll go? Not many teams have Paul Johnson as a 2nd ruck so there isn't that much competition for Hale.