Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates

[Maurice Mitchell]

Although calling the police has personal risks attached

 

[metic]

There were three rapes or attempted rapes of vulnerable young women near Swanbourne Railway Station and Claremont Subway late at night between 1992-1994 by someone who was in all likelihood BRE because it's his hunting ground. They were blitz attacks as were the HH and KK victims. All premeditated sport in my opinion. Then later escalating to murder.

The subway one, the physical description of attacker doesn't match bra.
But those others, such as "Coles loading" the "golf course attack" ,
"cott -lakeway drive in"
"church lane" & "Eric st home invasion"
Possibilities in my opinion

 

[JezzaPerth]

Met, pretty sure I've never seen everyone defend the Post or Christian with 'he never errs' or even similar. I've seen a couple of errors over the years but in comparison to the competition generally more trustworthy by far.

I'm not inclined to hang him with the rest over the use of the word 'slash' overall I think it's a good article.

Just noticed another error. The Post talked of "epithelial (skin) DNA". That's simply wrong. Epithelian cells are from internal organs such as the fallopian tubes or sperm ducts.

At least The Post noticed Hall is on top of the game regarding DNA. He is probably the second best informed person on DNA in the courtroom after Ms Ashley.

Edit: and they also propagated the story of no evidence of rape. Cooke was very precise when he was asked. He said there is no evidence of rape but the degree of decomposition means there could have been rape but it is not detectable scientifically.

 

[Kurve]

Just noticed another error. The Post talked of "epithelial (skin) DNA". That's simply wrong. Epithelian cells are from internal organs such as the fallopian tubes or sperm ducts.

Epithelial cells are also found on the skin.

 

[JezzaPerth]

Epithelial cells are also found on the skin.

Not that I can find. What is your source?

 

[Kurve]

Not that I can find. What is your source?

This looks okay: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/epithelial-cells

 

[JezzaPerth]

This looks okay: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/epithelial-cells

Skin epithelial cells are a different type to internal organ cells and perform a different function. For one thing the skin ones are keratonized and dead.

The epithelial cells in the DNA sampling which we are interested in are internal cells and are (or were) bioloigically active, e.g. as I mentioned sperm duct lining or cervix lining plus many others.

 

[Kurve]

Just noticed another error. The Post talked of "epithelial (skin) DNA". That's simply wrong. Epithelian cells are from internal organs such as the fallopian tubes or sperm ducts.

What article are you referring to here? I haven't read it yet.

 

[Coastie19]

I agree, anyone carrying around a kit containing a hood, a gag and restraints etc that jumps out behind someone and uses said kit to incapacitate and silence that person then proceeds to carry them to a vehicle and drive them around until reaching/finding a spot to then molest and rape that person was not doing so because of rejection. It reeks of premeditation, and later (seen as DNA connects them) escalation to murder in response to, for want of a better word, "errors" he made in previous attempts.

Whilst I agree, the rejection could have occurred that morning or a day of two before, resulting in him ruminating over it and putting a plan together in a short space of time.

 

[Sepai]

I was wondering whether he might have removed the restraints after death and taken them away to avoid his fingerprints being found.

In that era DNA was just being developed. He probably never realised he could be identified from a broken fingernail. Leaving the victims to decompose would have been part of his sick fantasy. It makes you wonder if he made return visits. He got sloppy at KK, Wellard and the CG location. the latter crimes scenes were found a bit on the late side for the investigators. Compounded by the false number one suspect.

 

[Mr Blicavs]

The version of a spent conviction that I know of is this ....If you have a police record and you need a police clearance for work for eg. ... if haven't had a conviction in the last 10 years you can apply for priors to be spent convictions ... if you have been a good boy for 10 years you get a police clearance
There may be other versions , but you do not get a spent conviction at the time of sentencing

This is exactly how it works

 

[kingswood71]

Not that I can find. What is your source?

Epithelial cells are just the cells that cover something...The skins top layer (the epidermis) is composed of epithelial cells in 4-5 layers. Its composed of keratinized stratified squamous epithelial cells.
Source: Me

 

[Sepai]

This is exactly how it works

BRE was convicted of Common assault at HH. He got a two year probation. he was made to do a Sex Offenders Course. Spent or otherwise he was in the Police files. They search both if your applying for a Security License. It was reported that the Judge at the time gave him a Spent conviction. Probably due to his Telecom job being on the line. How he never got sacked is outrageous. Did the clients of Telecom know he was a convicted Sex pest that committed an assault against a female employee of Telecom's client HH?

 

[kingswood71]

Skin epithelial cells are a different type to internal organ cells and perform a different function. For one thing the skin ones are keratonized and dead.

The epithelial cells in the DNA sampling which we are interested in are internal cells and are (or were) bioloigically active, e.g. as I mentioned sperm duct lining or cervix lining plus many others.

Disagree sorry. The cellular material under CG's nails was most likely skin cells that were scrapped under the nail by scratching. We are most certainly interested in them! Just because the outer epidermis of the skin has dead cells does not mean they do not have very type-able DNA!
Remember that the epidermis is only about 0.1mm thick, so any half decent scratch would be into the dermis.

 

[Crow_WA]

Just noticed another error. The Post talked of "epithelial (skin) DNA". That's simply wrong. Epithelian cells are from internal organs such as the fallopian tubes or sperm ducts.

At least The Post noticed Hall is on top of the game regarding DNA. He is probably the second best informed person on DNA in the courtroom after Ms Ashley.

Edit: and they also propagated the story of no evidence of rape. Cooke was very precise when he was asked. He said there is no evidence of rape but the degree of decomposition means there could have been rape but it is not detectable scientifically.

Stephan Hall is very impressive.

 

[Countessa]

In that era DNA was just being developed. He probably never realised he could be identified from a broken fingernail. Leaving the victims to decompose would have been part of his sick fantasy. It makes you wonder if he made return visits. He got sloppy at KK, Wellard and the CG location. the latter crimes scenes were found a bit on the late side for the investigators. Compounded by the false number one suspect.

That's correct about DNA being in its infancy but the police did already have his fingerprints on file for the attack on the HH social worker. IMO he was probably mindful of that and careful not to leave fingerprints as trace evidence which could be matched up to his earlier attacks. If JR and CG were bound with restraints he wouldn't want to leave them behind but he was careless with the KK victim who was still bound and allegedly he went back looking for her.

 

[BonzaRam]

BRE was convicted of Common assault at HH. He got a two year probation. he was made to do a Sex Offenders Course. Spent or otherwise he was in the Police files. They search both if your applying for a Security License. It was reported that the Judge at the time gave him a Spent conviction. Probably due to his Telecom job being on the line. How he never got sacked is outrageous. Did the clients of Telecom know he was a convicted Sex pest that committed an assault against a female employee of Telecom's client HH?

This has come up in the past

Yes you can get a spent conviction at sentencing
"If you are in court for an offence, you may be able to ask the court to make a Spent Conviction Order when you are being sentenced."

Employers cannot act on spent convictions by law because it is considered discrimination.

"In general, it is against the law for current or potential employers, unions, associations, licencing boards or professional regulators to discriminate against you because of spent convictions. If you are discriminated against because of your spent convictions, you can complain to the Equal Opportunity Commission. "

Yes it still shows on police and court records but it does not show on a National Police Clearance.

"It remains part of your private criminal record kept by the police (and your History for Court), but it will not be included as a disclosable conviction when you apply for a National Police Clearance. "

There is a clause that relates to this case in regards to the HH assault but i suspect that BRE didn't make any effort to disclose it to his employer, that is on him not his employer. Or it could be he was never again sent to a hospital etc for work.

"There are some exceptions where you will have to disclose that you have spent convictions.
Common situations include if you:

• are applying for certain jobs, including as a police, prison or transport officer
• want to work in certain places, including schools, hospitals and child care centres
• have applied for special licences, such as security agents, child care providers, casino employees, or to have firearms, or
• are applying for an Australian visa."
  
  

  Spent convictions | Legal Aid WA

  www.legalaid.wa.gov.au

 

[JezzaPerth]

Epithelial cells are just the cells that cover something...The skins top layer (the epidermis) is composed of epithelial cells in 4-5 layers. Its composed of keratinized stratified squamous epithelial cells.
Source: Me

Those damned wikipedians stealing original sources and not crediting them! They should be ashamed of themselves!

 

[JezzaPerth]

What article are you referring to here? I haven't read it yet.

 

[JezzaPerth]

Disagree sorry. The cellular material under CG's nails was most likely skin cells that were scrapped under the nail by scratching. We are most certainly interested in them! Just because the outer epidermis of the skin has dead cells does not mean they do not have very type-able DNA!
Remember that the epidermis is only about 0.1mm thick, so any half decent scratch would be into the dermis.

In the context of the article they were talikng about KK and BRE where we know there were no BRE skin cells involved - only sperm and mixed internal epithelial cells.

 

[kingswood71]

In the context of the article they were talikng about KK and BRE where we know there were no BRE skin cells involved - only sperm and mixed internal epithelial cells.

yes, in the context of KK rape DNA, the focus is on the sperm DNA fraction and the epithelial fraction (which would be predominantly the victims vaginal epithelial cells).
They didnt report locating any of BRE's epithelial cells, although some could have possibly been there in the epithelial fraction but at to small amounts to detect at that point.
They also didnt report any epithelial cells in the sperm extract, again either a very good extraction or any cells to small to detect.

 

[JezzaPerth]

They also didnt report any epithelial cells in the sperm extract, again either a very good extraction or any cells to small to detect.

I understand the separation of sperm and epithelial cells is essentailly by centrifuge. That doesn't seem 100% reliable. Do they do some chemical flim-flam to make the separation 100% ?

 

[JezzaPerth]

They didnt report locating any of BRE's epithelial cells

I would have thought that epithelial penis skin cells would feature? This whole jiggy-jiggy business tends to be a bit abrasive

 

[kingswood71]

I understand the separation of sperm and epithelial cells is essentailly by centrifuge. That doesn't seem 100% reliable. Do they do some chemical flim-flam to make the separation 100% ?

sodium dodecyl sulfate and proteinase K. This busts the somatic cells but the sperm generally are not effected by it. Once they are busted, they can be spun off and the epithelial component removed, leaving just intact sperm.

 

[kingswood71]

I would have thought that epithelial penis skin cells would feature? This whole jiggy-jiggy business tends to be a bit abrasive

Perhaps. And also urethral cells. But, the whole process back then was primitive according to what we have today, so it may not have detected his epithelial cells.