Cleanout Mk 3

[peejay]

Why. In his limited games for Coburg what has he shown?

Jack Sh1t.

Most who have not watched him at Coburg are going ga ga at ONE mark he took in a NAB cup game.

He will be 24 in December,I guess he is on a two year contract but by jingo he would have to do something special next year to get an extension.

 

[Googstar]

Take that approach and we would hav to take 2 steps back to go forward again dont think the club wants that.

I'll admit it takes guts but I don't see any other way to get a decent squad together. There in lies the burning question.........does the Club have the guts to cull the list properly? My guess is despite all the "no shortcuts" line they feed to us, they won't.

From my point of view, I can handle another proper cull and all the pain that it would bring but I assume I would be by far in the minority.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Why don't we list who we think will be part of our possible future premeirship side?

I'll go first....

FB ????? Rance Grimes
HB Batchelor ????? ?????
C Conca Cotchin Deledio
HF ????? Griffiths? Nahas?
FF Vickery Riewoldt ?????
R ?????? Foley? Martin

I/C Helbig? Houli? Grigg? Post?

Still got lots to do...

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Why don't we list who we think will be part of our possible future premeirship side?

I'll go first....

FB ????? Rance Grimes
HB Batchelor ????? ?????
C Conca Cotchin Deledio
HF ????? Griffiths? Nahas?
FF Vickery Riewoldt ?????
R ?????? Foley? Martin

I/C Helbig? Houli? Grigg? Post?

Still got lots to do...

Its an interesting,common sense way of looking at it.And even then you would agree that its a best case scenario.With Griffiths,Post and Helbig we are purely hoping really.I have this bad feeling about Griffiths ala Gumbleton.

Grigg would have to be a dramatic improver too.No jake King? Is that because you think he may have reached his zenith or that time will beat him?
Both valid reasons I'm just curious thats all.

All in all though you're little excercise demonstrates that we have a long,long way to go.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Its an interesting,common sense way of looking at it.And even then you would agree that its a best case scenario.With Griffiths,Post and Helbig we are purely hoping really.I have this bad feeling about Griffiths ala Gumbleton.

Grigg would have to be a dramatic improver too.No jake King? Is that because you think he may have reached his zenith or that time will beat him?
Both valid reasons I'm just curious thats all.

All in all though you're little excercise demonstrates that we have a long,long way to go.

Yeah, Kingy i think is 28 so unless he can play like he is now until he's 31-32-33, i think he will be eventually replaced by a youngster

Agree with you when you say that we are hoping more than anything with Griffths, kid's got talent but can he stay out on the park?

Grigg is on the slide, too soft but i saw him do some real great things at teh Blues so if he can resurrect that form he could be a part of the future side

Like i said, still alot of work to do

 

[CoggaRules]

Why don't we list who we think will be part of our possible future premeirship side?

I'll go first....

FB ????? Rance Grimes
HB Batchelor ????? ?????
C Conca Cotchin Deledio
HF ????? Griffiths? Nahas?
FF Vickery Riewoldt ?????
R ?????? Foley? Martin

I/C Helbig? Houli? Grigg? Post?

Still got lots to do...

Lets just take it in basic steps first dude..i would be more inclined to think of who will be part of a future tiger line up who can compete consistently, rather than who will be part of a premiership.
Right now my take is:

FB Newman Rance Grimes
HB Batchelor ????? ?????
C Conca Cotchin Deledio
HF ????? ????? ?????
FF Vickery Riewoldt ?????
R ?????? Foley Martin

I/C Houli, Moore, King

That is about it for the stone cold facts..we havent got a HF line and we havent got anyone for what are quite possibly the 3 most important positions on the ground...CHB, CHF and ruck.
Any mentions of players like Griff etc are purely pissing in the wind....no one knows shit when it comes to what they can or cant do in the big time. Until we see consistent competitive footy, which might lead onto match winning performances etc...they cannot be included in the future blue print. And i have been an advocate of Robbie Nahas, and he gets cut in my future blue print. He is doing a job now, but we need upgrades on players like him, so he becomes depth..

 

[Slattery_20]

There always was going to be a long way to go. Why would it be otherwise?
Seriously, have a look at the breakdown of ages & experiences, and compare that to to the blokes the Blues put out there, there are a lot of guys giving away 2 or 3 seasons on their opponent, and a few of your blokes who have had the development, aren't there talent-wise.
Not an excuse for *that* performance but put it into some perspective.

You talk about 'another cull needed'. That's rubbish IMHO. There's no need to go all-out because there will barely be any upside to doing so.
Miller, Tuck, Hislop Taylor gone - hardly important players this year thus hardly a big cull. Then look at Nason, McGuane, Connors, etc etc (all arguable) who are in that 'up for discussion' bracket making up to probably 7 or 8, all told.
Anyone in their 1st/2nd/3rd years wouldn't even come into discussions, IMHO.

 

[Bazzar]

Jack Sh1t.

Most who have not watched him at Coburg are going ga ga at ONE mark he took in a NAB cup game.

He will be 24 in December,I guess he is on a two year contract but by jingo he would have to do something special next year to get an extension.

Thats right. I forgot he was on 2 years so he has to show something a hell of a lot better next year. And who knows how our development will go if the jungle drums are correct and we get a stand alone team with quality coaching all tied in.

 

[Del65166]

There is plenty of footy still to be played this season and things will change between now and the end of the year.

I've listed 12 names that as it stands, IMO will go and a further 6 (some perhaps a little controversial) who I'd rather stay on the list. But for the right trade would let go. I.e. they would currently have value but in all likely-hood either due to age or talent won't be playing in a premiership.


Delist:
Browne
Graham
Webberley
Nason
Tuck
Miller
Thursfield
Taylor
Farmer
White
Hislop
Gourdis

Trade:
Edwards
Nahas
McGuane
Moore (will be 28 next season)
King (will be 28 next season)
Newman (will be 30 next season)

Clearly we can't get rid of them all at once (as I've listed 2 rucks and 4 KPDs) so this would have to happen over at least a couple of off seasons.

I think those who we have to mark most harshly are: Webberley, Farmer, Nason, and Hislop all of whom are currently 22-23, mature age recruits, they should be showing a lot more than they are by now.

And Gourdis, especially when you consider that he's older than all of Rance, Post, Astbury, and Grimes and they have all shown more at AFL level.

Flame away

no flames - a good post.
after a big loss it brings home that the guys you've listed are the ones to get rid of over the next 2/3 seasons.

 

[Bazzar]

To even contemplate trading King and Newman is ludicrous. Apart from not getting much it would rip the guts out of the club. Dumb idea.

 

[Del65166]

Lets just take it in basic steps first dude..i would be more inclined to think of who will be part of a future tiger line up who can compete consistently, rather than who will be part of a premiership.
Right now my take is:

FB Newman Rance Grimes
HB Batchelor ????? ?????
C Conca Cotchin Deledio
HF ????? ????? ?????
FF Vickery Riewoldt ?????
R ?????? Foley Martin

I/C Houli, Moore, King

That is about it for the stone cold facts..we havent got a HF line and we havent got anyone for what are quite possibly the 3 most important positions on the ground...CHB, CHF and ruck.
Any mentions of players like Griff etc are purely pissing in the wind....no one knows shit when it comes to what they can or cant do in the big time. Until we see consistent competitive footy, which might lead onto match winning performances etc...they cannot be included in the future blue print. And i have been an advocate of Robbie Nahas, and he gets cut in my future blue print. He is doing a job now, but we need upgrades on players like him, so he becomes depth..

good points....

there's 10 positions still to be filled. realistically that'll take a long, 3 years.
the upside of that is that those young players will have another 60 games under their belts. Hopefully finding individual and team consistency.

 

[Slattery_20]

To even contemplate trading King and Newman is ludicrous. Apart from not getting much it would rip the guts out of the club. Dumb idea.

Yup.
Anyone advocating it, consider the effect it'd have on the other guys getting towards 26 or so: would you keep re-signing, if a bloke like Newman (still in the best 5 or 8 players & done just about everything right for 10 years) got shafted like that?
Ridiculous.
Loyalty goes both ways & pushing out a guy as important as that would be repaid, methinks.

 

[Rodney Dangerfield]

Yup.
Anyone advocating it, consider the effect it'd have on the other guys getting towards 26 or so: would you keep re-signing, if a bloke like Newman (still in the best 5 or 8 players & done just about everything right for 10 years) got shafted like that?
Ridiculous.
Loyalty goes both ways & pushing out a guy as important as that would be repaid, methinks.

This is no way a jibe Slatts but the Heffernan/Hardwick/caracella thing proved that didn't it and in a way Essendon are still paying for it.
Sometimes it goes way beyond on field and anyone with anything to do with Essendon swear that those 3 blokes made up the life and soul of the place.

 

[Slattery_20]

Dimma hurts to this day.
Better example was trading Carey & Bradbury - proper clubmen - to get Raines, from you, in the 80s. Better player, not a better fit, footy is not played on paper.

I get the feeling King, Newman, Moore hold that sort of place within the club.

EDIT: Also, a difference is these days, GC +GWS have open cheque books and in a year or two, 8+ year players are subject to limited free agency. Anyone not 100% committed will be sniffed at.

 

[Spagman]

just a debate point that's come up in my household..

are we becoming too "Richo centric" with Jack Reiwoldt? our goal plan under Wallace & Frawley seemed to be simply "kick it to Richo" but the delivery was always complete rubbish. Now we have some fairly decent delivery (when we get it forward) but Jack is off his mojo, or like Richo, gets mobbed by 3 defenders.

Sure we have nahas, king, vickery down there to help, but it just seems we can't get anything right in the past few weeks. i guess if our midfield is getting a$$-r*ped then it's hard to get the ball forward, but the gameplan that won us a few games, at the moment it seems to be completely unravelling.

what's the answer? a new gameplan or new players?

 

[PUNTROADHAMMER]

Good disposal....

• Deledio
• Cotchin
• Martin
• Newman
• Riewoldt
• Conca

Acceptable, but perhaps their strengths lie elsewhere....

• Vickery
• Rance
• Grimes
• Batchelor
• Nahas
• Houli
• Foley
• King

Form your own realisitic opinion about the rest...

 

[chrstphrwnstn]

Right now my take is:

FB Newman Rance Grimes
HB Batchelor ????? ?????
C Conca Cotchin Deledio
HF ????? ????? ?????
FF Vickery Riewoldt ?????
R ?????? Foley Martin

I/C Houli, Moore, King

Any mentions of players like Griff etc are purely pissing in the wind....no one knows shit when it comes to what they can or cant do in the big time. Until we see consistent competitive footy, which might lead onto match winning performances etc...they cannot be included in the future blue print. And i have been an advocate of Robbie Nahas, and he gets cut in my future blue print. He is doing a job now, but we need upgrades on players like him, so he becomes depth..

Absolutely spot on CR. That is the core group of players that will (hopefully) take us forward. The key reason being they have shown signs that they are capable performing at a good competitive level, both with endeavour and skills. Hopefully a few of those empty spots can be snared by players already on the list with time and development, but this process it will take a lot of time (which we all understand... I hope).

 

[santa claws]

Good to hear a bit of reason... All through the NBA play-offs, the Dallas Mavericks said the same thing, don't get too high with the highs, don't get too low with the lows...

We copped a hiding, we are a young team, I guarantee I will see another 100 point flogging before I see a flag... Look to next week, bombers on a sat. night at the G. This talk of needing to delist 10 players is a massive over-reaction

na based purely on weakneses 10 is conservative.
ive said this so often it is becoming annoying. but as many as 23 could go. and you would not blink an eye.

this is not pessimism or being negative for negatives sake. but a potential reality.
i have no doubt that over the next 3 seasons at least 18 on the list will go.

as for newman in 3 yrs time he will be 31 and we could well be putting a line thru his name as well.

as some here keep telling me the names that are likely to go are not hard to pick.

its just my opinion but the majority of our older players just have to go it does mean we will have to take some mature upgrades when these players do go.

for me if we do not delist trade at least 8 we are not serious about rebuilding this club on field.

imo thursfield, tuck, are as good as gone already. it seems taylor is gone. so thats 3 we dont even have to think about.

it probably wont happen but white has to go, mcguane, and graham close on his heels. i think miller as good as gone and id say both webberley and nason close to gone.
shane edwards is not good enough and there has to be question marks over hislop morton connors. jackson has to be in the gun when will it be fired this yr or 3 yrs time.
jake king lacks the neccesary polish along with nahas connors is probably the most over rated player we have. farmer is another who just doesnt do enough and has issues. these blokes are all our older types i wont mention young players i have concerns with atm.
mate 10 is conservative, and its not just because we lost by 100 points. one or two of us have been saying these things about a lot of our players for a fair while.

 

[Parquet Court]

Jack Sh1t.

Most who have not watched him at Coburg are going ga ga at ONE mark he took in a NAB cup game.

He will be 24 in December,I guess he is on a two year contract but by jingo he would have to do something special next year to get an extension.

ive got a good feeling he will be a much improved player next season. he had a fantastic year in the WAFL playing with claremont on the massive WAFL grounds, he can cover some serious territory when he's in good nick.

will be our number 1 or 2 ruckman next year, depending on who is around

 

[MightyTiger]

na based purely on weakneses 10 is conservative.
ive said this so often it is becoming annoying. but as many as 23 could go. and you would not blink an eye.

this is not pessimism or being negative for negatives sake. but a potential reality.
i have no doubt that over the next 3 seasons at least 18 on the list will go.

as for newman in 3 yrs time he will be 31 and we could well be putting a line thru his name as well.

as some here keep telling me the names that are likely to go are not hard to pick.

its just my opinion but the majority of our older players just have to go it does mean we will have to take some mature upgrades when these players do go.

for me if we do not delist trade at least 8 we are not serious about rebuilding this club on field.

imo thursfield, tuck, are as good as gone already. it seems taylor is gone. so thats 3 we dont even have to think about.

it probably wont happen but white has to go, mcguane, and graham close on his heels. i think miller as good as gone and id say both webberley and nason close to gone.
shane edwards is not good enough and there has to be question marks over hislop morton connors. jackson has to be in the gun when will it be fired this yr or 3 yrs time.
jake king lacks the neccesary polish along with nahas connors is probably the most over rated player we have. farmer is another who just doesnt do enough and has issues. these blokes are all our older types i wont mention young players i have concerns with atm.
mate 10 is conservative, and its not just because we lost by 100 points. one or two of us have been saying these things about a lot of our players for a fair while.

Everyone Tiger supporter who is looking at our list objectively would agree, what people should be debating is how many players will we de-list every year for the next 3-4 years.

If we are looking at getting rid of about 23-25 players over the next 3-4 years that would mean at a minimum 6 players de-listed every year, which if you think about it is pretty much the average for all teams these days. Our problem is, is that we need to get rid of duds that are firmly sitting in our best 22, where other clubs would have the luxury of de-listing a couple of fringe players and a few rookies.

One thing I would suggest and I would like to think you would agree with me on is that we cant get rid of all our mature bodied players all in the one draft, what we need to do is slowly weed out the players in our 22 while getting rid f the junk on our rookie list and other fringe players such as Nason, Webberley, Taylor etc.

This year I would look at getting rid of.

Taylor (Waste of time wont be coming back)
Nason (To small and doesn't have a very good skill set)
Hislop (Really needs to show something in the last 5 or so weeks otherwise gone)
Tuck (I would prefer to hold onto as depth but the guy needs the chance at another AFL career at a different club)
Hicks (Is barely doing enough at VFL reserves level)
Thursfield (Simply not good enough)

That's 6 players, and in a compromised draft is deep enough, possibly in 2012 and onwards the club can look at cutting the list deeper per year.

In 2012 if the following players don't show signs of genuine improvement then they must go.

Westhoff
Contin (I really hope this kid gets a shot this year)
Webberley
McGuane (Only if all 3 of Grimes, Astbury and Rance can form a good defensive unit together)
Post (I thought he was good on the weekend and never stopped trying, needs a good run at it but if he doesn't show the same graph of improvement Rance has showed then he must go)
Morton (De-listed/Traded either way he needs to get out on the park and cement his spot in the team)

You can then throw in 2013 if certain players don't dramatically improve.

Farmer
Gourdis
Miller
White
Graham (Only if we find a better option)
O'Reilly (2011 is a ride off for him with injury, showed enough signs in his limited game time that he deserves to be persisted with)

And then anything after that the club starts getting rid of Rookies/Fringe players and upgrades on certain 22 players such as Jackson and Edwards.

The list needs a good turn over, my belief is that it will take 2 possibly 3 drafts before we have a best 22 worthy of playing finals, it will take another 1-2 drafts to build the quality depth needed to cover for injuries.

 

[footystar1z]

Im a sydney supporter, but i have a very big soft spot for the tiges, because all my cousins and uncles and family go for them so ive watched them growing up up until now. What amazes me about richmond is that they have so many bystanders and passengers who are just terrible and provide nothing. There recruiting which has been noted has been terrible in the past, for e.g tambling instead of franklin and the number 1 draft pick they had which didnt play a game. Farmer provides nothing, he is overweight doesnt have a footy brain. Grigg is one of the softest players in the team who doesnt run, chase or tackle. Another bystander. Thursfield looks slow and couldnt punch to save his life. Richmond unlike most clubs always have the duds who are in their team that should be playing for the vfl. Unlike sydney for example, who only have a few duds like most clubs. For e.g bevan, richards, richmonds list always consists of at least 7-10 duds. They need to do another major clean out and work with a strong draft and make sure that they recruit well. Look at mumford, kennedy, mcglynn, shaw. All were down and out at their previous clubs and look at them now.

 

[Bazzar]

^^^^^ santas Sydney cousin.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Heard the recruiting officer who works with FJ (forgot his name) speaking yesterday and he said if the season pans out the way they think it will we will have pick 12-18, also said this year's draft crop dosent run as deep as previous years so they are working extra hard to find a steal like Conca was last year...

This might be a good year to trade a couple of picks for an established Ruckman or KPB

 

[2TONE]

Play delideo loose defense, half back, give the licence to do his running goals, make sure g. allen from GWS takes notice, you probally will get a couple first round compo picks maybe a top 17 old chucked in. I cant believe how this guy has played so many below first pick standard games and no spotlight. guys from drafts in 05 06 07 07 09 have gone way past him. Its time tigers, GWS and the suns and the afl, have taken away your opportunity to soar again. It is time to grow some balls, throw away your coach and his incompentant assistants, make a stand with your players, the club must have the power, not the players or even the supporters. your list lacks in so many areas, it must have an iron fist to rule over the footy dept enter m malthouse... and the first thing is put d martin captain in 2012. i cant believe you guys have gone through this constant cycle of rubbish teams, rubbish coaches, and rubbish administrations. Benny gale has the power to change everything.

 

[Rustof]

Play delideo loose defense, half back, give the licence to do his running goals, make sure g. allen from GWS takes notice, you probally will get a couple first round compo picks maybe a top 17 old chucked in. I cant believe how this guy has played so many below first pick standard games and no spotlight. guys from drafts in 05 06 07 07 09 have gone way past him. Its time tigers, GWS and the suns and the afl, have taken away your opportunity to soar again. It is time to grow some balls, throw away your coach and his incompentant assistants, make a stand with your players, the club must have the power, not the players or even the supporters. your list lacks in so many areas, it must have an iron fist to rule over the footy dept enter m malthouse... and the first thing is put d martin captain in 2012. i cant believe you guys have gone through this constant cycle of rubbish teams, rubbish coaches, and rubbish administrations. Benny gale has the power to change everything.

First part:
Goddard was in the same position, people were questioning his worth until only a couple seasons ago. Deledio has only played in a team that at best was bottom 8. In that time he's won 2 B&F's and 2 AA noms, imagine how he would be regarded if he played in a team that actually saw finals action.

Second part:
That's just stupid, why would you sack a second year coach, especially with the list he was given...

Third part:
No. Cotchin is our next captain.