Coach Comparisons

[The Crows Truth]

As someone who didn't want Craig at the time - you're exactly right with that. They obviously knew a heap that we mere mortals had no knowledge of at all. I do think that from a perception point of view, the club did handle the whole appointment thing poorly, and as we know, perception becomes reality.

I've gladly eaten huge slices of humble pie ever since his appointment though.

We now have the best coach in the AFL - by the length of the proverbial straight IMO.

On ya for fessing upold son - agree he is the best coach in AFL - ive been saying it for a long time now - no sane man can disagree anymore

Edwards just called Craig his BEST ever coach -

 

[maccas_no1]

As someone who didn't want Craig at the time - you're exactly right with that. They obviously knew a heap that we mere mortals had no knowledge of at all. I do think that from a perception point of view, the club did handle the whole appointment thing poorly, and as we know, perception becomes reality.

I've gladly eaten huge slices of humble pie ever since his appointment though.

We now have the best coach in the AFL - by the length of the proverbial straight IMO.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm humble pie *drools*

 

[splat868]

Not that I was posting on bf at the time, but I couldnt have been happier when craigy was announced as appointed coach.

Seriously, with his background in other sports, apprenticeship under Blighty, his beliefs and ideals and his results in late 04 it all looked good.

the other coaches on offer had all had experience with reasonable success at other clubs , but then so had Ayres and Shaw, and look what happened there.

I was all for trying someone fresh with his background and I was more than happy he was from Sa. Craigy was a very good player in his day and also had to have had a lot of footy smarts and skills in other areas to have done the things he had done previously.

 

[splat868]

I see no way that the Crows would have done this well under any other coach.

its the people management of Craigy that is making such a huge difference.
It was primarily the same list under Ayres and was going nowhere but down, sure Ayres recruited some decent players, but there werent developing under him.

I wouldnt have expected such an enormous turnaround under Craig either though

hes turned out better than we all expected

 

[relapse]

As someone who didn't want Craig at the time - you're exactly right with that. They obviously knew a heap that we mere mortals had no knowledge of at all. I do think that from a perception point of view, the club did handle the whole appointment thing poorly, and as we know, perception becomes reality.

I've gladly eaten huge slices of humble pie ever since his appointment though.

I totally agree with you, I was also on the Wallace bandwagon. I thought that Craig didnt have the runs on the board and had been in "our system" for too long and the remainder of 2004 when he took over was average to poor. How wrong I was about him as a candidate, I dont think either Eade or Wallace would have achieved anything close to what Craig has done so far.

For the first time ever, including when Blight was there, I now go into every match expecting to win. Prior to that our performances were always slighty unpredictable and we always lost a few winnable games each season. This hasnt really happened under Craig like it happened in the past.

I still question the process of how he was selected (to me the whole process was contrived to enable the appointment of Craig), but irrespective of that the AFC did made the right choice and as things stand now, I would rather have Craig than any other coach. I also think that we have some fantastic assistants and apparently Noble is a astute tactition that Wallace was desperately wanting to join him at Richmond, I guess the AFC got that big chequebook out (the one that Rucci often refers to) to ensure that he came to us instead of them.

While I have raised the subject of Rucci. One thing I am very interested in knowing is how Rucci is about it all, I know he was pushing Craig's borrow to the hilt, but I think it was for the wrong reasons and thought that he would not do so well at the club. Good to see that people like Rucci helped push him against the greater amount of AFC supporters (like myself) that didnt want Craig appointed, I am sure those comments would have given the AFC justification for their decision.

I even boycotted a home game in 2004 against (Richmond?) over the decision, but have been happily been eating humble pie since the start of last year.

 

[splat868]

I totally agree with you, I was also on the Wallace bandwagon. I thought that Craig didnt have the runs on the board and had been in "our system" for too long and the remainder of 2004 when he took over was average to poor. How wrong I was about him as a candidate, I dont think either Eade or Wallace would have achieved anything close to what Craig has done so far.
.

I agree, that the crows were average in the second half of 2004, but by my calculations the crows had a win/loss ratio of 6/7 under craig for that time, compared to 2/7 under Ayres for the first 9 rounds. Id say that was a pretty fair turnaround under the circumstances, and a good indicator of what was to come. he definitely saved us from a much worse finish that year than we would have had.
assuming people dont subscribe to tanking for draft picks

 

[The Crows Truth]

I totally agree with you, I was also on the Wallace bandwagon. I thought that Craig didnt have the runs on the board and had been in "our system" for too long and the remainder of 2004 when he took over was average to poor. How wrong I was about him as a candidate, I dont think either Eade or Wallace would have achieved anything close to what Craig has done so far.

For the first time ever, including when Blight was there, I now go into every match expecting to win. Prior to that our performances were always slighty unpredictable and we always lost a few winnable games each season. This hasnt really happened under Craig like it happened in the past.

I still question the process of how he was selected (to me the whole process was contrived to enable the appointment of Craig), but irrespective of that the AFC did made the right choice and as things stand now, I would rather have Craig than any other coach. I also think that we have some fantastic assistants and apparently Noble is a astute tactition that Wallace was desperately wanting to join him at Richmond, I guess the AFC got that big chequebook out (the one that Rucci often refers to) to ensure that he came to us instead of them.

While I have raised the subject of Rucci. One thing I am very interested in knowing is how Rucci is about it all, I know he was pushing Craig's borrow to the hilt, but I think it was for the wrong reasons and thought that he would not do so well at the club. Good to see that people like Rucci helped push him against the greater amount of AFC supporters (like myself) that didnt want Craig appointed, I am sure those comments would have given the AFC justification for their decision.

I even boycotted a home game in 2004 against (Richmond?) over the decision, but have been happily been eating humble pie since the start of last year.

nice post

 

[relapse]

I agree, that the crows were average in the second half of 2004, but by my calculations the crows had a win/loss ratio of 6/7 under craig for that time, compared to 2/7 under Ayres for the first 9 rounds. Id say that was a pretty fair turnaround under the circumstances, and a good indicator of what was to come. he definitely saved us from a much worse finish that year than we would have had.
assuming people dont subscribe to tanking for draft picks

But what you have to add to that was the fact that we have a massive amount of home games in the run home. Craig coached for 9 matches, 6 of which were at football park against Ayres that had many games away for the first part of the year. Given the same run home Ayres could have easily won the same amount of games as Craig did.

To me and another there was nothing encouraging at all about Craig's time in 2004.

 

[Stiffy_18]

To me and another there was nothing encouraging at all about Craig's time in 2004.

To me there was. Reilly's form after Craig took over, Rutten was born again, Bock played some good games, McLeod found an extra step etc....

At the time I was OK with Craig but then I lost all faith after we got belted by some 23 goals by Brisbane at the GABBA. I wanted anyone but Craig then. Thats the game that strongly changed my opinion on Craig and I now happily admit that I over-reacted and I am glad that club had the balls to appoint him even after a record loss.

 

[tribey]

Not that I was posting on bf at the time, but I couldnt have been happier when craigy was announced as appointed coach.

Seriously, with his background in other sports, apprenticeship under Blighty, his beliefs and ideals and his results in late 04 it all looked good.

the other coaches on offer had all had experience with reasonable success at other clubs , but then so had Ayres and Shaw, and look what happened there.

I was all for trying someone fresh with his background and I was more than happy he was from Sa. Craigy was a very good player in his day and also had to have had a lot of footy smarts and skills in other areas to have done the things he had done previously.

Not having a dig here (good to see you posting) as I am another who was on the '1. Wallace, 2. Eade, 99. Craig' bandwagon who is now quite happily gorging on humble pie - but every one of those positives for your choice of Neil is highly debatable.

# "Background in other sports" - Gerard Neesham played Water Polo for Australia, Matthews and Sheedy have been purely football men all their lives.

# "Apprenticeship under Blighty" - Hello Gary Ayres, Darel Hart, Mark Mickan.

# "His results in '04" - Club's biggest ever loss with the abject second half surrender the biggest since France was rolled by the Nazis.

# "The other coaches on offer had all had experience with reasonable success at other clubs, but then so had Ayres and Shaw, and look what happened there."- Wallace and Eade are still arguably the two biggest tactical innovators in the game who may still experience the ultimate success before they're done. It's also worth noting that to date both have been closer to a flag than Craig despite being younger men (obviously with more opportunities).

# "I was all for trying someone fresh with his background and I was more than happy he was from SA." - He was hardly 'fresh' having been in our system for nearly a decade, also how many South Australian coaches have won flags at VFL/AFL level? Blight and who else?

# "Craigy was a very good player in his day and also had to have had a lot of footy smarts and skills in other areas to have done the things he had done previously" - Playing ability has no correlation with coaching ability though does it? Yes you have your Lethals and Blights, but you also have your Sheedys and Malthouses who were just good honest players. The less said about your Bartletts, Knightses, Eberts and Shaws the better.

Again not having a dig, I just think it was more fortune than undeniable logic which resulted in you backing the right horse - and what a win it's been.

 

[arrowman]

To me there was. Reilly's form after Craig took over, Rutten was born again, Bock played some good games, McLeod found an extra step etc....

At the time I was OK with Craig but then I lost all faith after we got belted by some 23 goals by Brisbane at the GABBA. I wanted anyone but Craig then. Thats the game that strongly changed my opinion on Craig and I now happily admit that I over-reacted and I am glad that club had the balls to appoint him even after a record loss.

I agree with relapse that the win/loss ratio wasn't a big deal, but Stiffy is right about the positives. Also - in general - I thought we were visibly playing a different, and better, style of footy under Craig. It was early days of course, and it broke down badly against Brisbane, but you could see that something was afoot under the new coach and that was encouraging.

 

[splat868]

probably a fair point,

craigs win loss ratio was actually 4/5 with ayers at 3/10 for the season, not what i previously thought-sorry, and there were 6 home games in the last 9 as youve said. would have been interesting to see what the results would have been under Ayres. at the time I was sure they wouldnt have been the same.

I feel that the belief the players had in themselves started to reappear in those last 9 games, and they seemed to believe in Craig.

that and the fact Ive always liked craigs work since his playing days, and felt he had a lot to offer.

 

[Crow-mo]

But what you have to add to that was the fact that we have a massive amount of home games in the run home. Craig coached for 9 matches, 6 of which were at football park against Ayres that had many games away for the first part of the year. Given the same run home Ayres could have easily won the same amount of games as Craig did.

To me and another there was nothing encouraging at all about Craig's time in 2004.

agree. you also have to remember we were destroyed by injury in 2004.

 

[Gets!]

probably a fair point,

craigs win loss ratio was actually 4/5 with ayers at 3/10 for the season, not what i previously thought-sorry, and there were 6 home games in the last 9 as youve said. would have been interesting to see what the results would have been under Ayres. at the time I was sure they wouldnt have been the same.

I feel that the belief the players had in themselves started to reappear in those last 9 games, and they seemed to believe in Craig.

that and the fact Ive always liked craigs work since his playing days, and felt he had a lot to offer.

I just get more impressed with Craigy week after week. Especially the way he handles the media. VERY happy he is our coach and hopefully he will be the next Sheedy.

 

[Crow-mo]

Again not having a dig, I just think it was more fortune than undeniable logic which resulted in you backing the right horse - and what a win it's been.

exactly right

 

[The Crows Truth]

Again not having a dig, I just think it was more fortune than undeniable logic which resulted in you backing the right horse - and what a win it's been.

Mate you could use the same statement everytime ya get something wrong - Reilly, Doughty etc. Give credit where its due

 

[tribey]

Mate you could use the same statement everytime ya get something wrong - Reilly, Doughty etc. Give credit where its due

Ah but due credit was given

 

[splat868]

Not having a dig here (good to see you posting) as I am another who was on the '1. Wallace, 2. Eade, 99. Craig' bandwagon who is now quite happily gorging on humble pie - but every one of those positives for your choice of Neil is highly debatable.

# "Background in other sports" - Gerard Neesham played Water Polo for Australia, Matthews and Sheedy have been purely football men all their lives.

# "Apprenticeship under Blighty" - Hello Gary Ayres, Darel Hart, Mark Mickan.

# "His results in '04" - Club's biggest ever loss with the abject second half surrender the biggest since France was rolled by the Nazis.

# "The other coaches on offer had all had experience with reasonable success at other clubs, but then so had Ayres and Shaw, and look what happened there."- Wallace and Eade are still arguably the two biggest tactical innovators in the game who may still experience the ultimate success before they're done. It's also worth noting that to date both have been closer to a flag than Craig despite being younger men (obviously with more opportunities).

# "I was all for trying someone fresh with his background and I was more than happy he was from SA." - He was hardly 'fresh' having been in our system for nearly a decade, also how many South Australian coaches have won flags at VFL/AFL level? Blight and who else?

# "Craigy was a very good player in his day and also had to have had a lot of footy smarts and skills in other areas to have done the things he had done previously" - Playing ability has no correlation with coaching ability though does it? Yes you have your Lethals and Blights, but you also have your Sheedys and Malthouses who were just good honest players. The less said about your Bartletts, Knightses, Eberts and Shaws the better.

Again not having a dig, I just think it was more fortune than undeniable logic which resulted in you backing the right horse - and what a win it's been.

I dont disagree with you there at all, im not trying to claim that i had a crystal ball at all. a lot of it might have been blind faith, luckily it turned out not to be misguided.
however I did feel he had a lot to offer with his background, and that the atmosphear had improved since he took over. and no matter what the other coaches had done before they hadnt acheived ultimate success, admittedly most coaches never do, but I was happy the gave him the gig.
i think I wrote the brisbane game off as an aberation, most coaches dont have a totally smooth start to their tenure.
I guess its like most things in life - you go with a decision to the best of your knowledge, but theres never a guarantee it will work out.

 

[tribey]

I dont disagree with you there at all, im not trying to claim that i had a crystal ball at all. a lot of it might have been blind faith, luckily it turned out not to be misguided.
however I did feel he had a lot to offer with his background, and that the atmosphear had improved since he took over. and no matter what the other coaches had done before they hadnt acheived ultimate success, admittedly most coaches never do, but I was happy the gave him the gig.
i think I wrote the brisbane game off as an aberation, most coaches dont have a totally smooth start to their tenure.
I guess its like most things in life - you go with a decision to the best of your knowledge, but theres never a guarantee it will work out.

Fair enough.

Hopefully he can bring us a flag or five before he's done.

 

[splat868]

Not having a dig here (good to see you posting) as I am another who was on the '1. Wallace, 2. Eade, 99. Craig' bandwagon who is now quite happily gorging on humble pie - but every one of those positives for your choice of Neil is highly debatable.

# "Background in other sports" - Gerard Neesham played Water Polo for Australia, Matthews and Sheedy have been purely football men all their lives.

# "Apprenticeship under Blighty" - Hello Gary Ayres, Darel Hart, Mark Mickan.

# "His results in '04" - Club's biggest ever loss with the abject second half surrender the biggest since France was rolled by the Nazis.

# "The other coaches on offer had all had experience with reasonable success at other clubs, but then so had Ayres and Shaw, and look what happened there."- Wallace and Eade are still arguably the two biggest tactical innovators in the game who may still experience the ultimate success before they're done. It's also worth noting that to date both have been closer to a flag than Craig despite being younger men (obviously with more opportunities).

# "I was all for trying someone fresh with his background and I was more than happy he was from SA." - He was hardly 'fresh' having been in our system for nearly a decade, also how many South Australian coaches have won flags at VFL/AFL level? Blight and who else?

# "Craigy was a very good player in his day and also had to have had a lot of footy smarts and skills in other areas to have done the things he had done previously" - Playing ability has no correlation with coaching ability though does it? Yes you have your Lethals and Blights, but you also have your Sheedys and Malthouses who were just good honest players. The less said about your Bartletts, Knightses, Eberts and Shaws the better.

Again not having a dig, I just think it was more fortune than undeniable logic which resulted in you backing the right horse - and what a win it's been.

Having acknowledged the correctness of your quote about the fortune aspect of my thoughts, and having a little more time to reply now, I thought id clarify some of my statements a little that you replied to DT.

With the background in other sports, I was referring to his role in the australian olympic cyling team, and his sports science background.
the experience that he gained from this, combined with his time under Blight and as coach of local clubs/playing days, and various other roles gave him a large area of knowledge to draw on rather than football exclusively.
his philosphies and knowledge have in part developed from these.

agreed, all of the coaches had their own strengths to bring to their jobs, I just found craigs to be quite impressive.(personal choice thats all)
having said all of that, the reason I call him fresh is because he had all this time to develop his goals and ideals, but hadnt had the chance to put his fresh ideas into practice as an AFL head coach where he had free reign to perfect them.

sometimes you pick the right choice, sometimes the wrong choice, just like tipping football games themselves, theres never an undeniable winner. I was suprised there was so much sentiment against Craig though.
The south Australian thing I have to admit is completely from the heart and dates back to the state of origin football rivalry before the crows entered the AFL.

 

[DaveW]

It's also worth noting that to date both have been closer to a flag than Craig despite being younger men (obviously with more opportunities).

True enough for Eade who took the Swans a grand final, but Wallace never got any closer to a flag than Craig did by taking us to a preliminary final in 2005.

also how many South Australian coaches have won flags at VFL/AFL level? Blight and who else?

Mark Williams? But I agree - not all that relevant.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

I just get more impressed with Craigy week after week. Especially the way he handles the media. VERY happy he is our coach and hopefully he will be the next Sheedy.

The other thing is that he goes out of his way to praise everyone (but himself) - be it the players (eg. Maric last week, Goody the previous week), the club (eg. spending $'s on his areas of need), or us the supporters (eg. for turning up in atrocios conditions). He may have felt that he had to go out of his way to win us over, given many of us thought the appointment process was dodgey, but ultimately winning us over comes down to performing (including an attractive style of play, developing te list), - which no doubt he is doing, better than I ever expected. The thanks such the letter he sent in pre-season is just the icing on the cake.

 

[The Crows Truth]

As someone who didn't want Craig at the time - you're exactly right with that. They obviously knew a heap that we mere mortals had no knowledge of at all. I do think that from a perception point of view, the club did handle the whole appointment thing poorly, and as we know, perception becomes reality.

I've gladly eaten huge slices of humble pie ever since his appointment though.

We now have the best coach in the AFL - by the length of the proverbial straight IMO.

Macca - can you clarify this? This post would tend to support what I am saying on the other thread but are you now taking another position

 

[Crow-mo]

[/b]

Macca - can you clarify this? This post would tend to support what I am saying on the other thread but are you now taking another position

you just need to slow down, and read more carefully. it's not too hard to grasp.

Macca and most people are agreeing craig is a great coach who brings a lot to the table, however match day coaching is one of the things that he could be better at. for the life of me, i can't see why you think a coach, any coach, is going to be A1 in every aspect?

 

[The Crows Truth]

you just need to slow down, and read more carefully. it's not too hard to grasp.

Macca and most people are agreeing craig is a great coach who brings a lot to the table, however match day coaching is one of the things that he could be better at. for the life of me, i can't see why you think a coach, any coach, is going to be A1 in every aspect?

Thanks Macca

However by definition the 'best coach in the AFL - by the length of the proverbial straight' would tend to indicate he knows whats hes doing on match day. Certainly no dud. Stats and media opinion ive heard back me up.

I am not saying he is the leagues best match day coach - Eade or Wallace probably are. Thats not what this is about.

Its about refuting your assertions such as:

'my point is Craigy is never going to be much in the box'

'I can't fault craig for his match day sluggishness'

IMO Craig is in the top tier (say top quartile) of match day coaches