Coach Comparisons

[macca23]

You shouldn't confuse overall comments with specifics and say they contradict each other.

My angst relates to one specific thing - he chose not to man up when blind Freddie and blind Frederika as well could see that had to be done, and it cost us a game.

I may not like the shape of your ears, but it doesn't mean that overall I think you're ugly.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Thanks Macca

However by definition the 'best coach in the AFL - by the length of the proverbial straight' would tend to indicate he knows whats hes doing on match day. Certainly no dud. Stats and media opinion ive heard back me up.

I am not saying he is the leagues best match day coach - Eade or Wallace probably are. Thats not what this is about.

Its about refuting your assertions such as:

'my point is Craigy is never going to be much in the box'

'I can't fault craig for his match day sluggishness'

IMO Craig is in the top tier (say top quartile) of match day coaches

Let me put it this way for you.

Craig is no better match day coach than Gary Ayres. In fact, their match day coaching is pretty similar.

However, Craigy's preparation is FAR superior to Ayres', hence making him a better coach.

Craig himself has said a number of times, whether we win or lose a game is determined by his preparation during the week.

You are still to answer my question in the other thread. What match winning move has Craig pulled out of his backside on the match day to win a game that we didn't look like winning?

The point we are making is that there are a lot of different ways to achieve the same result. There are different styles and strategies that deliver pretty much the same result.

 

[The Crows Truth]

Let me put it this way for you.

Craig is no better match day coach than Gary Ayres. In fact, their match day coaching is pretty similar.

However, Craigy's preparation is FAR superior to Ayres', hence making him a better coach.

Craig himself has said a number of times, whether we win or lose a game is determined by his preparation during the week.

You are still to answer my question in the other thread. What match winning move has Craig pulled out of his backside on the match day to win a game that we didn't look like winning?

The point we are making is that there are a lot of different ways to achieve the same result. There are different styles and strategies that deliver pretty much the same result.

No surely you jest - YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS

 

[Stiffy_18]

No surely you jest - YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS

They share a lot of match day attributes actually.

What Craig lacks on match day, he more than makes up with his preparation and ability to motivate players.

You still haven't answered my question.

 

[The Crows Truth]

Let me put it this way for you.

Craig is no better match day coach than Gary Ayres. In fact, their match day coaching is pretty similar.

However, Craigy's preparation is FAR superior to Ayres', hence making him a better coach.

Craig himself has said a number of times, whether we win or lose a game is determined by his preparation during the week.

You are still to answer my question in the other thread. What match winning move has Craig pulled out of his backside on the match day to win a game that we didn't look like winning?

The point we are making is that there are a lot of different ways to achieve the same result. There are different styles and strategies that deliver pretty much the same result.

How about naming games his match day coaching has LOST us the game - with the exception of the weekend as we all agree on this one. The question shouldnt be one of naming match winning moves - if you do all thr right things on match day then it doesnt come down to one or 2 moves as you will be comfortably in front - as the Crows have consistenthly been in the last 1.5 yrs

Good strategic Moves off the top of my head include the following. I will rack the brain and give some more also

- Moving Roo to FF last yr vs Tigers and dragging Sugar (who was tagggin) with him - who had dominated in 1st qtr
- Tempo football Round 1 2006 vs Pies. That saved us the game
- Rutten to FF vs Bullies R5 or 6 caught em unawares

Stiffy - you surely cant be serious that Craig is no better than Aytes. Ayres had ONE game plan - Craig has at least 2 with with some derivatives. I cant even imgaine Maccas 23 and Crow Mos agreeing with you there. Perhaps they do - lads your view on this????

 

[- PC -]

How about naming games his match day coaching has LOST us the game - with the exception of the weekend as we all agree on this one.

So you agree he was outcoached and didnt react?

We all agree he has put the score on the board in terms of games won and lost. Most are saying when the Crows lost its not because the other team was better , but because Craig didnt make the right moves during the game

 

[The Crows Truth]

They share a lot of match day attributes actually.

What Craig lacks on match day, he more than makes up with his preparation and ability to motivate players.

You still haven't answered my question.

mates interesting viewpoint - i will put it to the masses to decide

 

[The Crows Truth]

So you agree he was outcoached and didnt react?

We all agree he has put the score on the board in terms of games won and lost. Most are saying when the Crows lost its not because the other team was better , but because Craig didnt make the right moves during the game

Perth Crow - every one of my posts say that. Yes I agree on the weekend he was outcoached - no question.

Whats your view on his match day coaching in the bigger picture - ie last 18 months>?

 

[Crow-mo]

Its about refuting your assertions such as:

'my point is Craigy is never going to be much in the box'

'I can't fault craig for his match day sluggishness'

ok. when will you start?

IMO Craig is in the top tier (say top quartile) of match day coaches

no problems, look forward to some real reasons why?

 

[Crow-mo]

You still haven't answered my question.

you noticed this too

 

[Stiffy_18]

How about naming games his match day coaching has LOST us the game - with the exception of the weekend as we all agree on this one. The question shouldnt be one of naming match winning moves - if you do all thr right things on match day then it doesnt come down to one or 2 moves as you will be comfortably in front - as the Crows have consistenthly been in the last 1.5 yrs

- The game on the weekend is one
- Round 1 last year, leaving Rutten on Embley (A clear mis-match) that resulted in Embley kicking 3 last quarter goals and proving a match winner.
- Not tagging Harvey in the finals against St. Kilda, when it was clear as daylight that he was KILLING us all night
- Last year against Bulldogs, not making a move when it was clear that Scott West was MOLESTING us in that 3rd quarter

Those are only a handful of "clear as daylight" moves that NEVER happened in the game of footy in question.

Good strategic Moves off the top of my head include the following. I will rack the brain and give some more also

- Moving Roo to FF last yr vs Tigers and dragging Sugar (who was tagggin) with him - who had dominated in 1st qtr

Fair call

- Tempo football Round 1 2006 vs Pies. That saved us the game

Err, that was a strategy that was put in place before the game and was implemented during the game by the players.

- Rutten to FF vs Bullies R5 or 6 caught em unawares

Now you are really struggling. That was not a match day move. It was very much pre-planned during the week because there was no one there for him to pick up. It hardly caught them off guard since Wellman on before the bounce thought that Rutten would play forward and Eade at his after match press conference said he expected Rutten to play forward because there was no match up for him.

Again, that is most certainly not the match day move. It was something that was decided on during the week in Craig's preparation which by the way has no peer in the competition.

Stiffy - you surely cant be serious that Craig is no better than Aytes. Ayres had ONE game plan - Craig has at least 2 with with some derivatives. I cant even imgaine Maccas 23 and Crow Mos agreeing with you there. Perhaps they do - lads your view on this????

You just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper. After reading this post, do you understand the difference between match day coaching and preparation?

One game plan has NOTHING to do with match day coaching and EVERYTHING to do with preparation. Craig is the master of preparation and he develops strategies for certains scenarios so when that certain scenario arises during the game, he has a strategy in place for it that players know and have practiced. Clear example of this is "tempo footy". He thought long and hard how he could stop that onslaught by the Bulldogs at telstra dome if he encoutered it again and came up with tempo footy. He gets his players to practice it and says "OK lads, if we are in a situation where the opposition kicks a 2 or 3 goals in a row against us this is what we do".

No one develops a game plan during the match. Thats just ridicilous. Craigy is someone that learns from his mistakes. He is not quick enough to make call during the game (see game against Richmond) but you can bet your bottom dollar that he has spent a lot fo time since thinking and breaking down that game to come up with a strategy that counters it. Next time we is in that situation, we will know what to do to counter it. Craigy is a leanrer but he is not a quick learner.

From your posts on the matter, I seriously question whether you can tell the difference between match day coaching and preparation that takes place prior to the game and during the pre-season.

 

[Crow-mo]

How about naming games his match day coaching has LOST us the game - with the exception of the weekend as we all agree on this one.

first final, playing St Kilda. Letting Goodwin go head to head with Harvey.

Good strategic Moves off the top of my head include the following. I will rack the brain and give some more also

- Moving Roo to FF last yr vs Tigers and dragging Sugar (who was tagggin) with him - who had dominated in 1st qtr

to be fair I don't recall this, was the game in doubt?

- Tempo football Round 1 2006 vs Pies. That saved us the game

except the coach himself says it was the players who took this decision, not him. no soup for you.

- Rutten to FF vs Bullies R5 or 6 caught em unawares

how did this impact the flow of the game? more importantly wasn;t this decided pre game?

Stiffy - you surely cant be serious that Craig is no better than Aytes. Ayres had ONE game plan - Craig has at least 2 with with some derivatives. I cant even imgaine Maccas 23 and Crow Mos agreeing with you there. Perhaps they do - lads your view on this????

it's pretty clear, over and over, we agree with stiffy. can you not read?

 

[CrowMagnum]

How about naming games his match day coaching has LOST us the game - with the exception of the weekend as we all agree on this one. The question shouldnt be one of naming match winning moves - if you do all thr right things on match day then it doesnt come down to one or 2 moves as you will be comfortably in front - as the Crows have consistenthly been in the last 1.5 yrs

1. Letting Scott West run amok against the Bulldogs round 5 2005
2. Letting Robert Harvey run amok Semi-Final 2005
3. Taking off an in form Clarke for Biglands during a run on because it was the normal rotation late in the Prelim Final 2005 leading to several easy centre clearances and goals to West Coast
4. Leaving on a sadly out of touch Jericho NAB Final 2006

 

[Crow-mo]

- The game on the weekend is one
- Round 1 last year, leaving Rutten on Embley (A clear mis-match) that resulted in Embley kicking 3 last quarter goals and proving a match winner.
- Not tagging Harvey in the finals against St. Kilda, when it was clear as daylight that he was KILLING us all night
- Last year against Bulldogs, not making a move when it was clear that Scott Welsh was MOLESTING us in that 3rd quarter

Those are only a handful of "clear as daylight" moves that NEVER happened in the game of footy in question.

Fair call


Err, that was a strategy that was put in place before the game and was implemented during the game by the players.

Now you are really struggling. That was not a match day move. It was very much pre-planned during the week because there was no one there for him to pick up. It hardly caught them off guard since Wellman on before the bounce thought that Rutten would play forward and Eade at his after match press conference said he expected Rutten to play forward because there was no match up for him.

Again, that is most certainly not the match day move. It was something that was decided on during the week in Craig's preparation which by the way has no peer in the competition.

You just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper. After reading this post, do you understand the difference between match day coaching and preparation?

One game plan has NOTHING to do with match day coaching and EVERYTHING to do with preparation. Craig is the master of preparation and he develops strategies for certains scenarios so when that certain scenario arises during the game, he has a strategy in place for it that players know and have practiced. Clear example of this is "tempo footy". He thought long and hard how he could stop that onslaught by the Bulldogs at telstra dome if he encoutered it again and came up with tempo footy. He gets his players to practice it and says "OK lads, if we are in a situation where the opposition kicks a 2 or 3 goals in a row against us this is what we do".

No one develops a game plan during the match. Thats just ridicilous. Craigy is someone that learns from his mistakes. He is not quick enough to make call during the game (see game against Richmond) but you can bet your bottom dollar that he has spent a lot fo time since thinking and breaking down that game to come up with a strategy that counters it. Next time we is in that situation, we will know what to do to counter it. Craigy is a leanrer but he is not a quick learner.

From your posts on the matter, I seriously question whether you can tell the difference between match day coaching and preparation that takes place prior to the game and during the pre-season.

Spot on,

 

[Stiffy_18]

to be fair I don't recall this, was the game in doubt?

No it wasn't but it was a smart move though. Sugar was doing a lot of damage in the center but we were still in front on the scoreboard. Craig did make the move of taking Johnson out of the game and it did open make it easier for us to distance ourselves further from the tigers. Hardly a match winning move since Welsh and Perrie both dominated foward but I will give him that one anyway

 

[- PC -]

Whats your view on his match day coaching in the bigger picture - ie last 18 months>?

Had some questions and still do every now and then but they are quietened by wins

I recall the St Kilda game at the Dome last year when we were ( I think 4 goals down at 1/4 time) and he backed the players to do the job, dont recall any moves, and the players responded

 

[Stiffy_18]

3. Taking off an in form Clarke for Biglands during a run on because it was the normal rotation late in the Prelim Final 2005 leading to several easy centre clearances and goals to West Coast
4. Leaving on a sadly out of touch Jericho NAB Final 2006

Forgot those 2.

#3 was VERY obvious at the time and the move that did give WC a chance to distance themselves.

On #4, I can't really blame him for that because it was after all a PS game and he probably wanted to see how Jericho would react. Personally, I was screaming for the move from the stands but I could also see some merit in letting Jezza sink or swim. It was a pre-season game after all.

 

[marvin]

- Last year against Bulldogs, not making a move when it was clear that Scott Welsh was MOLESTING us in that 3rd quarter

Welsh stunk all game, not just the 3rd quarter.

 

[marvin]

Let's get serious for a minute.

Who really is a "great" match day coach? in this league? Only the gamblers - Sheedy, Blight in his prime. And even the gamblers roll the dice and lose sometimes. For every Ellen to full forward move (which was pre-planned, anyway) there's an Ellen to play on Neitz disaster.

Saturday was partially due to the coaching, but equally due to a number of players who weren't bringing their A game. We were fumbly, chose poor options, lacked intensity and accountability. Changing to a man-on-man defensive set up wasn't going to alter that fundamentally.

One poor loss does not make Neil Craig a poor coach, any more than one good win makes Terry Wallace the greatest coach ever to slip in to a tanning salon, no matter how many Terry gets on to TV and radio this week to claim all the credit.

What intrigues me is how Wallace claims every win as due to coaching genius and every loss due to his players being inexperienced, or not following his carefully crafted plans. (E.g. after the loss to the Eagles - "I thought we worked reasonably hard in the match-ups" [i.e. the coaches are brilliant] " Just our inability to be able to hit targets was an issue to me" [.e. the players are rubbish]). To Neil Craig's credit, he plays it exactly the opposite.

It's all to easy sometimes to blame the coach, but you have to play with the cards you have. Neil didn't have a lot at his disposal on Saturday.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Let's get serious for a minute.

Who really is a "great" match day coach? in this league? Only the gamblers - Sheedy, Blight in his prime. And even the gamblers roll the dice and lose sometimes. For every Ellen to full forward move (which was pre-planned, anyway) there's an Ellen to play on Neitz disaster.

Saturday was partially due to the coaching, but equally due to a number of players who weren't bringing their A game. We were fumbly, chose poor options, lacked intensity and accountability. Changing to a man-on-man defensive set up wasn't going to alter that fundamentally.

One poor loss does not make Neil Craig a poor coach, any more than one good win makes Terry Wallace the greatest coach ever to slip in to a tanning salon, no matter how many Terry gets on to TV and radio this week to claim all the credit.

What intrigues me is how Wallace claims every win as due to coaching genius and every loss due to his players being inexperienced, or not following his carefully crafted plans. (E.g. after the loss to the Eagles - "I thought we worked reasonably hard in the match-ups" [i.e. the coaches are brilliant] " Just our inability to be able to hit targets was an issue to me" [.e. the players are rubbish]). To Neil Craig's credit, he plays it exactly the opposite.

It's all to easy sometimes to blame the coach, but you have to play with the cards you have. Neil didn't have a lot at his disposal on Saturday.

But no one is saying that

No one has said that Craig is a rubbish coach. Far from it. I have said he is the best coach in the competition but he is not a great match day coach. Lets face it none of us are perfect in every aspect of our employment. Some are great at one thing and lacking at the other while some are good at both but not great in any. That doesn't mean that the worker lacking in one area is poor because he makes up for his shortcoming with his strengths.

Craig is a great coach. No one is arguing that point.

 

[drakeyv2]

What had more impact on the result?

Craig's alleged lack of "match day nous", or the players inability to win contested ball, to kick straight for goal and to block, Sheppard & hit targets by foot or hand.

I personally think you can make an argument that Richmond won in spite of Wallace’s' tactics, not because of them.

The players relaxed because "we were only playing Richmond" & paid the price. Under those circumstances Richmond may well have won by more if they had played a more attacking game.

One thing is for sure. Based on the reaction to one loss, Craig wouldn't want to loose 3 or 4 in a row!

 

[marvin]

Craig is a great coach. No one is arguing that point.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Some randomly selected posts from the last few days from this board:

"Craig's lack of coaching response today made him look like a clone of Gary Ayres or Grant Thomas"

"our current style, while extremely exciting, will not hold up under finals pressure"

"Today's game was lost from the coaching box. It took us 3 and a half quarters to realise that playing man on man will not allow richmond to play keepings off game that they did today. Blind Freddy would see that."

"Craig can say what he likes, but even though our players played sh ithouse today, the game was lost in tthe coaching box."

"I really don't like Neil Craig's slow reactions during games."

"Game day coaching - been said before but still our weakest link."

"does Neil Craig have a plan B?"

"Craig's game day coaching was utter crap today!"

"He's not a great match day coach, never has been"

"Craigy is never going to be much in the box"​

Hardly a ringing endorsement of Craig as a great coach, more like a typical post-game analysis of Scott Stevens performance.

My point is that Wallace did not out-perform Craig as a match day coach. Wallace came up with his tactics early in the week (as he is loudly proclaiming to every media outlet in Australia), but if we'd kicked straight early, got anywhere near Richmond's intensity, threatened to win a clearance, or if either Kris Massie or Graham Johncock had scored an after the siren goal (instead of both missing everything) there's every chance Wallace would not have been able to implement plan A.

There's also every chance that if we went man-on-man from the 2nd term, we break down the structure that has served us so well for a season and a bit, we don't play it all that well because the players aren't as switched on as we'd like, our weak links get isolated in the defensive 50, and we still lose. In which case Craig gets derided for being a poor match day coach because he panicked.

 

[drakeyv2]

My point is that Wallace did not out-perform Craig as a match day coach. Wallace came up with his tactics early in the week (as he is loudly proclaiming to every media outlet in Australia), but if we'd kicked straight early, got anywhere near Richmond's intensity, threatened to win a clearance, or if either Kris Massie or Graham Johncock had scored an after the siren goal (instead of both missing everything) there's every chance Wallace would not have been able to implement plan A.

Exactly

All we needed was to kick one of the large no. of relatively easy shots on goal we missed, & Craig's game plan stands up against Wallace's ultra defensive game plan & he is still "super coach". They miss & he "isn't a match day coaches arse hole".

If this game taught us anything it should be the importance of goal kicking & the fact we need to work on McGregor's & Hentschel's kicking tecnique from set shots.

 

[Messiah]

There's also every chance that if we went man-on-man from the 2nd term, we break down the structure that has served us so well for a season and a bit, we don't play it all that well because the players aren't as switched on as we'd like, our weak links get isolated in the defensive 50, and we still lose. In which case Craig gets derided for being a poor match day coach because he panicked.

I don't want really to get involved with this argument, but just want to add why I think the coaching box took so long to respond. I can't say whether AFC would have won or lost had they matched up earlier than they did. Nobody can say for sure as it is all hypothetical now.

Under NC the Crows have the most disciplined structure in the comp and it has been working pretty well for us. It has been working with large changes in playing personnel. If the coaching staff were to react to every single move made by the opposition the structure would become less disciplined and more anarchaic. NC wants the team to get used to their structure and playing styles. Moving everyone all over the shop to react to everything that happens on game day (You put a monkey on a piano long enough he will eventually play a tune) is just not his style. He admits it himself.

As others have pointed out, the Crows played badly on the weekend and if just one of any number of incidents had not occurred they would have won another game. As NC says, there is a lot of luck in football, especially in games where the winning margin is 10 points or less. If you look at many areas where the Crows were dominated by Richmond (hard ball gets, taps, clearances etc) it is amazing we werent completely thrashed! Maybe the disciplined structure prevented an even bigger loss!

I'm pretty happy this has happened at this stage of the season. It will give the coaching staff food for thought and should make the next few games very interesting to see just how they will respond to these tactics.

 

[sworc36]

Having acknowledged the correctness of your quote about the fortune aspect of my thoughts, and having a little more time to reply now, I thought id clarify some of my statements a little that you replied to DT.

With the background in other sports, I was referring to his role in the australian olympic cyling team, and his sports science background.
the experience that he gained from this, combined with his time under Blight and as coach of local clubs/playing days, and various other roles gave him a large area of knowledge to draw on rather than football exclusively.
his philosphies and knowledge have in part developed from these.

agreed, all of the coaches had their own strengths to bring to their jobs, I just found craigs to be quite impressive.(personal choice thats all)
having said all of that, the reason I call him fresh is because he had all this time to develop his goals and ideals, but hadnt had the chance to put his fresh ideas into practice as an AFL head coach where he had free reign to perfect them.

sometimes you pick the right choice, sometimes the wrong choice, just like tipping football games themselves, theres never an undeniable winner. I was suprised there was so much sentiment against Craig though.
The south Australian thing I have to admit is completely from the heart and dates back to the state of origin football rivalry before the crows entered the AFL.

My thoughts exactly. I also wanted NC because his heart and soul is with the AFC, and maybe Im wrong here but I believe that you just give that little bit more when you have some sort of emotional attachment.