Coaching

[Lach72]

You don't watch the game very closely do you?

How were his 3 shots on goal. Great disposal - my arse!

3 shots from 50 and got nowhere near it.Pav 3 shots inside 50 nowhere near it...

I swear sometimes I thought the fix was in

 

[Nodgey]

I'm not sure why. Because he immediately slots in? How does this help us long term? We've had plenty of young blokes who've had solid first few seasons only to come back to the pack quickly. Rich is good, but so is Hill, and I don't think our problem lies at the draft table.

The fundamental problem with Freo is that players have come and gone through our club with promising initial seasons and stagnating after that.

I know the argument is that all young kids look promising early, but just as many don't, and at some clubs, every promising kid seems to end up a reasonable player. Why is this such a rare occurrence at Freo?

It doesn't matter who the coach is, the list seems to have no development in it. We are constantly forced to rely on rookie draft players who have are given multiple cracks when our first line selections don't come on properly. These rookie picks generally come through as more mature players who've had a few years in the WAFL system.

Why is that? My bet is that the WAFL clubs who feed us are doing a better job of developing players than we do. Broughton's about the same age as Drum, except he's been trained and developed for a few years by Subi versus Drum who's been at Freo. Why is Broughton the more capable player at AFL level than a guy who has been in the professional system for three years? It can be argued that we possibly took Drum too early in the draft, but at the same time, he was probably always going to be taken in the national draft, versus Broughton who only got a look in at age 22 in the rookie draft.

It's not just Drum either - Murphy, Polak, etc all showed something initially and went nowhere. Why has Duffield ended up being at least as good as Murphy, Schammer, Mundy, Campbell, etc, if not better?

You are quite probably right that Harvey is not up to it, but the problems are much deeper than that. It is obviously a task too difficult for a rookie coach to assess, but it seems to me that the entire systems Fremantle have in place for running a professional club are wanting badly.

I have to agree with each and every bit of this.

 

[Selggad]

I'm not sure why. Because he immediately slots in? How does this help us long term? We've had plenty of young blokes who've had solid first few seasons only to come back to the pack quickly. Rich is good, but so is Hill, and I don't think our problem lies at the draft table.

The fundamental problem with Freo is that players have come and gone through our club with promising initial seasons and stagnating after that.

I know the argument is that all young kids look promising early, but just as many don't, and at some clubs, every promising kid seems to end up a reasonable player. Why is this such a rare occurrence at Freo?

It doesn't matter who the coach is, the list seems to have no development in it. We are constantly forced to rely on rookie draft players who have are given multiple cracks when our first line selections don't come on properly. These rookie picks generally come through as more mature players who've had a few years in the WAFL system.

Why is that? My bet is that the WAFL clubs who feed us are doing a better job of developing players than we do. Broughton's about the same age as Drum, except he's been trained and developed for a few years by Subi versus Drum who's been at Freo. Why is Broughton the more capable player at AFL level than a guy who has been in the professional system for three years? It can be argued that we possibly took Drum too early in the draft, but at the same time, he was probably always going to be taken in the national draft, versus Broughton who only got a look in at age 22 in the rookie draft.

It's not just Drum either - Murphy, Polak, etc all showed something initially and went nowhere. Why has Duffield ended up being at least as good as Murphy, Schammer, Mundy, Campbell, etc, if not better?

You are quite probably right that Harvey is not up to it, but the problems are much deeper than that. It is obviously a task too difficult for a rookie coach to assess, but it seems to me that the entire systems Fremantle have in place for running a professional club are wanting badly.

This is a disturbingly astute assessment of part of Freo's worries. I guess the other side of the coin is some of our wins e.g. Hayden, Sandi and Crowley off the rookie list. A few obvious top liners such as Pav, Hase and McPharlin (prior to this season). It is difficult to assess from the outside how much of the success or failure of an individual is due to the individuals own character i.e. Pav would be a star anywhere and Polak was probably always going to have issues. Still, as we have all acknowledged many times, culture has been a problem for the Dockers since Neesham was named inaugural coach, and we have not been able to substantially alter that yet. I think Harvey has made some good inroads in some areas but there are a lot of questions about his overall coaching ability that this year has failed to dispel. On the plus, he has made some tough decisions and is placing us in a better position, quite possibly for his successor.

 

[Lach72]

Reading that article on Drum, I'd have to agree gravy

 

[Sman-21]

Yep player development is a huge worry at freo.
They get in and after the first year or so hardly any show real improvement.
No one whos capable of playing in key positions works hard enough in gym to get strength required.
From what i saw of Palmer early this year instead of improving he seemed to go into his shell due to all the media criticism and then coaches pressuring him to change kicking action etc.
Ended up having a Palmer not as brave to take the game/players on and afraid to kick.

Yes they absolutely must work on everyones skills but they have to be mindful not to ruin there confidence.

Sandilands been around for a while yet for some reason still not good enough overhead and still not getting enough taps to our players advantage.

Michael Johnson is my biggest problem with player development he has gone backwards more than anyone and still has the body of a 18 year old even some of the youngsters from other teams have better strength conditioning than him.

 

[SupersonicDocker]

Something strange has indeed gone on behind the doors at this club I will definitely acknowledge that.

For example, why is it guys Michael Johnson, Adam Cambell, Steven Dodd, Marcus Drum, Ryan Murphy and David mundy all have severely underdeveloped and strength lacking bodies? These guys have been in the system for a very long time and its a little concerning. A concern on speed and mobility could possibly be a reason but guys like Paul Chapman and Adam Goodes make a mockery of that theory when you see how well they move for guys with very large frames. There is no reason Michael Johnson couldn't be Adam Goodes' size.

The second concern is of course the team workrate and attitude. I think there is a huge ego problem at both west australian clubs at the moment. Players are treated like royalty way too young and are given a false sense of "you have hit the big time" much before they have even achieved anything. This seems to translate onfield with our team being one of the main offenders when it comes to fluctuating discipline and effort for many years now. Harvey to me seems switched on and committed. He is a no frills operator and in this day and age there is such a huge support network of coaches and technology that issues like not making the right moves to stop one player seem to far fetched to be blamed on the head coach. They are obviously aware of these things but for some reason our players lack the discipline to stick to the tasks is what i think is the issue

Sadly we are all desperate for change from the years of bizarre form and underachieving, whats even sadder is the fact that I think it is going to take years and years to remove these deep seeded problems.

Luckily for us we have Rhys Palmer, Chris Mayne, Hayden Ballantyne, Nick Suban, Greg Broughton and Steven Hill to ease the pain on the way

 

[DCFCFAN84]

Incorrect.

We are missing Pav up forward.
He was there for maybe 15 minutes today for 3 shots on goal...missed all three unfortunately.

Would like him as a permanent CHF for the last two games

Exactly 3 shot's in 15 mins is awesome! we need Pavlich at FF/CHF.

 

[The Night Shift]

doom and gloom

 

[theGav56]

I don't think our problem lies at the draft table.

We have so many problems, and the draft table is clearly one of them. We should not have a list of failed players selected from the first round including Polak, Dunn, Murphy, Brown etc if it was not a problem. We need to get all avenues for the improvement of the club firing and the draft is clearly a major area for improvement.

But you are spot on re the player development. But again, Harvey has been here long enough as assistant and senior coach to identify that as a major problem and fix it.

You are quite probably right that Harvey is not up to it, but the problems are much deeper than that. It is obviously a task too difficult for a rookie coach to assess, but it seems to me that the entire systems Fremantle have in place for running a professional club are wanting badly.

You forgive Harvey too easily. He may be a rookie coach but he is the most experienced Rookie coach in history and played a long time in a very successful side. He was brought in as a plug-and -play coach to provide the hardness that our Premiership-contender list lacked and take us deep into the finals. I think he certainly deserves half a season next year to prove he is worth another contract, but he shouldn't be stuffing up too many things (such as with team selection and game plans which don't work).

 

[Clay Davis]

We have so many problems, and the draft table is clearly one of them. We should not have a list of failed players selected from the first round including Polak, Dunn, Murphy, Brown etc if it was not a problem. We need to get all avenues for the improvement of the club firing and the draft is clearly a major area for improvement.

I'm not so sure. Polak was a highly rated young KPP in 2001 - pretty much as the best in the country at that point - in a draft that yielded two Brownlow medallists, Gary Ablett, three Norm Smiths and a couple of premiership captains. And Nick Dal Santo. It was almost a no-brainer to draft him. At the time, everyone knew 2001 was a superdraft, and Polak was the only KPP rated in the top five. At that point, we probably had poorer KPP depth than we did midfield depth.

Dunn and Murphy made sense at the time - medium sized mid and a forward KPP. Certainly aimed to address issues we had at the end of 2003, and in hindsight only looks bad because the players didn't come on, but we're not the only ones who screwed that draft. Only one of the top 5 have taken it to the next level (Cooney) and even Kepler was drafted at 6.

Browne was a fourth round pick, so not that much lost there.

I'm not saying drafting isn't something that shouldn't be improved, but on the face of it, there is much less wrong there than elsewhere at the club. We're obviously able to pick talented players from everywhere - beginning at the ND and finishing at the RD and PSD - but it seems the ones who come to us who have had some development elsewhere (either via RD or trades) fit in to AFL far better than ones who've spent their entire first grade career at Fremantle.

But you are spot on re the player development. But again, Harvey has been here long enough as assistant and senior coach to identify that as a major problem and fix it.

No question about Harvey needing to identify it. But it's been a problem for so long, under so many coaches, that it begs the question "why hasn't it been fixed?". In my opinion, Connolly and Schwab did try to fix it. We had a revolving door of fitness coaches and new fitness regimes during their era, trying to extract the best performance out of the list. Every single one pretty much failed, and development of young players went nowhere.

It leads me to believe that their decisions to trade rather than draft were in exasperation that young players hardly came on. I remember the arguments about getting Tarrant and Solomon, that both players would be able to slot straight in, versus a young guy who wouldn't. Maybe the real fear was that a young guy just wouldn't ever come on at Freo? That trading makes more sense than drafting for our club because there are forces behind the scenes that make it impossible for us to properly develop young players.

This is just supposition - I'm not trying to absolve Connolly or Harvey of their responsibilities as coaches. But it's a curious situation - as you've said before, we have only been able to get rookie coaches. Is that because no senior coach wants to come to our club, or another reason? Does the board actively choose rookie coaches, because they will be more compliant to the culture of the club than one who has already done work elsewhere? Is it because a rookie coach will do what the club says, or because a rookie coach means fan expectations are smaller?

You forgive Harvey too easily. He may be a rookie coach but he is the most experienced Rookie coach in history and played a long time in a very successful side. He was brought in as a plug-and -play coach to provide the hardness that our Premiership-contender list lacked and take us deep into the finals. I think he certainly deserves half a season next year to prove he is worth another contract, but he shouldn't be stuffing up too many things (such as with team selection and game plans which don't work).

No major disagreements there, but I don't believe we've ever had a premiership contender list. That was a fallacy.

 

[Belnakor]

For example, why is it guys Michael Johnson, Adam Cambell, Steven Dodd, Marcus Drum, Ryan Murphy and David mundy all have severely underdeveloped and strength lacking bodies? These guys have been in the system for a very long time and its a little concerning. A concern on speed and mobility could possibly be a reason but guys like Paul Chapman and Adam Goodes make a mockery of that theory when you see how well they move for guys with very large frames. There is no reason Michael Johnson couldn't be Adam Goodes' size.

that is a real concern and has been for me for a long time. The modern game now is about being strong and quick. Our guys are slow, but don't seem to have the bulk you would normally associate with the slower guys. Of the team playing, i would say only 2-3 guys on our list have the required bulk to play the positions they are in: Tarrant, Pav and Solomon. And any guesses where two of them came from? Pav is just clearly a freak. Oh and Sandilands, but the guy is a Giant.

I would say the rest of our list is severely undersized in the modern game. I saw McPharlin leaving the game last week, i can see why he gets pushed off the ball easily.

Johnson and Drum's development bodywise is pathetic for guys who have been on the list for as long as they have.

We knew this season was going to be a write off, and we should have been treating it as an extended preseason.

 

[Clay Davis]

You mean like how Paul Duffield trained with South Freo before he was elevated in 2006, and henceforth has better definition in his arms than Mundy or Murphy, who trained exclusively with Freo?

 

[Belnakor]

You mean like how Paul Duffield trained with South Freo before he was elevated in 2006, and henceforth has better definition in his arms than Mundy or Murphy, who trained exclusively with Freo?

if that was the case, it doesn't suprise me at all. The only guy who ever bulked up at Freo was Medhurst, who basically just had to look at a set of weights to bulk up.

 

[malpaso]

We might not havbe won and given the attitude probably not, but a forward line where everyone is slow and tall and it's wet is muppetry...unless you want to lose

I agree that smaller personnel would have helped. That's a general consensus in the wet, however we missed shots at goal. I think Mayne and Pavlich missed 5 set shots on goal, with Pavlich not even registering a point twice.

The poor play in the midfield cost us the game. Our tall forward line would have beaten them all day with half-decent delivery.

 

[shark75]

Harvey has done a good job instilling character into the team and blooding new players.

BUT our team is very disorganised, we still have problems kicking in after points, playing against as zones, we dont spread well from clearances, and struggle getting the ball out of our defense when the game is on the line.

Also, our players pass the ball to stationary players and our players continaully lead into the same space. Our team try hard to tackle but either over commit or the tackle is broken which causes a over lap player.

The guy has to go and lets Laidley.

 

[shark75]

Harvey has done a good job instilling character into the team and blooding new players.

BUT our team is very disorganised, we still have problems kicking in after points, playing against as zones, we dont spread well from clearances, and struggle getting the ball out of our defense when the game is on the line.

Also, our players pass the ball to stationary players and our players continaully lead into the same space. Our team try hard to tackle but either over commit or the tackle is broken which causes a over lap player.

The guy has to go and lets get Laidley.

 

[malpaso]

You mean like how Paul Duffield trained with South Freo before he was elevated in 2006, and henceforth has better definition in his arms than Mundy or Murphy, who trained exclusively with Freo?

That's crap. Duffield has been training with Freo for the last 2 years. It's actually only this year that his strength improvement has come about, hence his improved play.

If there is no strength program at Freo, Duffield would not have the definition he has currently. I think it's an individual mindset and Duffield put the hard yards in OR his program was changed.

Mundy looked pretty solid to me, same with Dodd, opposition players don't break their tackles very often.

 

[malpaso]

Harvey has done a good job instilling character into the team and blooding new players.

BUT our team is very disorganised, we still have problems kicking in after points, playing against as zones, we dont spread well from clearances, and struggle getting the ball out of our defense when the game is on the line.

Also, our players pass the ball to stationary players and our players continaully lead into the same space. Our team try hard to tackle but either over commit or the tackle is broken which causes a over lap player.

The guy has to go and lets get Laidley.

Do you realize that the team has young players?

All those things you mention come with experience and playing together. According to you the coaching staff must just say 'Lets not give a rat's about all that stuff and just send em out'.

Is it any wonder that a team like St Kilda had up until the last couple of rounds had only used about 24-25 players?

Wake up.

 

[Clay Davis]

That's crap. Duffield has been training with Freo for the last 2 years. It's actually only this year that his strength improvement has come about, hence his improved play.

Where am I talking about the past two years? Duffield debuted at age 21 from the rookie list and already looked more mature bodied than Murphy and Mundy at the same age. Broughton debuted at age 22 from the rookie list, and looks more mature bodied than Drum who's at the same age.

These guys have spent more time at WAFL clubs than the rest of our players, and seem to debut with the club with more development in them. It's a strange coincidence that can't be pinned down as just something on the individual level.

 

[Mundy]

that is a real concern and has been for me for a long time. The modern game now is about being strong and quick. Our guys are slow, but don't seem to have the bulk you would normally associate with the slower guys. Of the team playing, i would say only 2-3 guys on our list have the required bulk to play the positions they are in: Tarrant, Pav and Solomon. And any guesses where two of them came from? Pav is just clearly a freak. Oh and Sandilands, but the guy is a Giant.

I would say the rest of our list is severely undersized in the modern game. I saw McPharlin leaving the game last week, i can see why he gets pushed off the ball easily.

Johnson and Drum's development bodywise is pathetic for guys who have been on the list for as long as they have.

We knew this season was going to be a write off, and we should have been treating it as an extended preseason.

Personally, I think it comes back to work ethic off the field.

Whether their is a cultural problem, and it looks that way or poor fitness programs I dont know but I agree to an extent.

The other problem I see is a basic lack of class through our midfield, but, under the guidance of Harvey I think we are seeing the development of an AFL standard midfield which will hold us in good stead for years to come.

The worry IMO, remains over Harvey's gameday ability.

I dont doubt his influence on the players off the field and at the trade table.

Too often it is so obvious, so obvious that a match-up has nightmare written all over it, and so often he is too slow to react, the horse bolts and we are rooted.

Davey -> Schammer? WTF?

BOB on Wonnameri? 4 goals, game over.

This year was always going to be a write off, a clean out of that magnitude ensured this, but that doesnt excuse poor match day coaching.

Im willing to give him an extra year, but I'd like to see some improvement not only in the side next year, but in his ability to adapt gameday.

Malthouse has two years left.....

 

[SupersonicDocker]

Where am I talking about the past two years? Duffield debuted at age 21 from the rookie list and already looked more mature bodied than Murphy and Mundy at the same age. Broughton debuted at age 22 from the rookie list, and looks more mature bodied than Drum who's at the same age.

These guys have spent more time at WAFL clubs than the rest of our players, and seem to debut with the club with more development in them. It's a strange coincidence that can't be pinned down as just something on the individual level.

Exactly... Broughton has a far stronger and developed body than 90% of our list. Guys like Mcpharlin have zero upper body strength which really is a worry unless your Dustin Fletcher...

 

[SupersonicDocker]

That's crap. Duffield has been training with Freo for the last 2 years. It's actually only this year that his strength improvement has come about, hence his improved play.

If there is no strength program at Freo, Duffield would not have the definition he has currently. I think it's an individual mindset and Duffield put the hard yards in OR his program was changed.

Mundy looked pretty solid to me, same with Dodd, opposition players don't break their tackles very often.

Mundy has not gotten the best out of his size at all. That is my only large grievance with him. His core strength is not too bad when he is getting tackled, but he doesn't have the upper body strength to have a proper defensive side to his game or attacking. He can only land a tackle if they are in extremely close proximity and he can wrap his whole body around the player. Dodd is a disgrace. For his height and for the years he has been in the system he should be able to play on the Fevola's/Browns/Riewoldt's of the competition but he cant because his upper body strength is non existent.

Player effort off field with weights and conditioning is obviously a very pedestrian culture at Fremantle

 

[malpaso]

Where am I talking about the past two years? Duffield debuted at age 21 from the rookie list and already looked more mature bodied than Murphy and Mundy at the same age. Broughton debuted at age 22 from the rookie list, and looks more mature bodied than Drum who's at the same age.

These guys have spent more time at WAFL clubs than the rest of our players, and seem to debut with the club with more development in them. It's a strange coincidence that can't be pinned down as just something on the individual level.

Ok my bad, I had thought you meant recently.

I agree however I think it's the players mindset (ie. Lazy) and in some case's genetics that contribute to it.

Murphy must be doing next to nothing!

 

[Belnakor]

Mcpharlin must not even look at a set of weights.

 

[Clay Davis]

Ok my bad, I had thought you meant recently.

I agree however I think it's the players mindset (ie. Lazy) and in some case's genetics that contribute to it.

Murphy must be doing next to nothing!

Player's mindset is important, but it's not like the club has set out to recruit lazy players. Past two drafts are good examples - both Palmer and Hill have said their aim is to get a bigger upper body, so they know what's required and what they need to aim for. Both have a tremendous work ethic. It's pretty hard to make it at AFL level without doing hard graft - for every Ashley Sampi or Nick Stevens type drafted there are five who can be motivated up to Rhys Palmer's or Ben Cousins's work rate. But it's up to the clubs to motivate them.

My point is not just about muscle definition, but the fact that blokes who come to us with a few years training in the WAFL system behind them are generally better equipped for AFL footy than guys with a few years at Freo.

Belnakor mentioned Medders as an example of players with a strong physique - he debuted at age 20 with a full season at Claremont behind him.

So what's the answer? It can't be just coaching. Four full time coaches have all generally encountered the same problem. The strategy of remedying it seems to be attempting a new fitness regime for a while, then giving up and using trading to plug the holes.