Collingwood's appalling Grand Final record

[76woodenspooners]

OPop Quiz:

Q1: How many Premiership Grand Finals has Collingwood won? (Easy one)
A1: 15

Q2: How many Premiership Grand Finals has Collingwood won since WWII?
A2: 4

Q3: How many Premiership Grand Finals has Collingwood lost since WWII? (Hold your breath, you know it's going to be bad)
A3: 14

Why is this?

This record is spread across many coaches. There are four main culprits. Win / Draw / Lose record for them:

Phonse Kyne W2 D0 L4
Bob Rose W0 D0 L3
Tom Hafey W0 D1 L4
Mick Malthouse W1 D1 L3

That's a total record of W4 D2 L14 over a 65 year period.

It's remarkable that we've qualified for 20 GF's in 65 years. Are we blessed?

It's remarkable that we've drawn 2 and lost 14 of them. Are we cursed?

Is there something about our club culture that gets us to the Grand Final only to (usually) lose it?

--------------------------------

Reasons submitted up until 5th Jan 2011 (no particular order)

1) We've actually overachieved by getting to so many GF's, but then we simply haven't been the dominant team.

2) We've bumped into AFL supported teams (eg: Brisbane in 2002, 2003)

3) Key suspensions have cost us (eg: , Carman in '77, J Cloke in '02, A Rocca in '03, H Shaw & D Thomas during '11)

4) Our rivals have had more stars.

5) Poor administration

6) Our rivals lift their games when playing against us.

7) Our opponents are better than us.

8) Key injuries during the GF (eg: McKenna in'70, Ohlsen in '79)

9) Dodgy umpiring (eg: out of bounds call in '79)

10) Out coached ('70, '11)

11) Bad Luck (eg: '66)

12) We were tired compared with our opponents (overtrained in '77, long finals campaign in '81)

13) Attitude of supporters - huge number of hero worshippers and backslappers

14) Unprofessional Board of Directors*
,
15) Old fashioned attitudes. *Beaten by class.

16) Poor player selection.

17) Poor recruiting (eg: missing KB in '78, half hearted attempt at interstate recruiting)

18) Poor zone allocation compared with our rivals.

19) Lack of hunger ('11)

20) We have a natural crowd advantage over others that gets us to the GF, but we lose that advantage in the GF itself.

21) Couldn't kick straight ('70)

22) Weight of expectation that comes from being the most supported club in the country.

23) Not enough heart.

24) Too predictable ('70)

25) Fear of success

26) Disruption due to player strike ('70)

27) Poor administration

28) Content with winning at Victoria Park - but the GF is at MCG.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I don't like that they list the Runners-Up honours in our Year Book.

I really don't think being the Premiership loser 26 times is something we should be proud of.

Surely if they want a space filler they can list McClelland trophy years or something.

 

[Ed D]

A lot of the years that Collingwood made the grand final only to lose were because they weren't the dominant side. Meaning they were coached really well to get to the grand final and played well as a team but lacked the players to win. 2002-2003 is a good example where Brisbane were the better side yet we managed to make the grand finals by playing a good team game.

 

[Frankie23]

There's no culture issue, the 2011 group that lost the GF would have no idea (apart from a few Collingwood supporters in the group) of the losing GF sides of the 60's/70's etc.

We've had a bit of bad luck and have bumped into good teams, who knows the next 60 years may see us win 14 and lose 4...

 

[mocamagic]

It is a shocking record.

The only solace I can take when reflecting on the most recent era under Malthouse is to use the same line Storm coach Craig Bellamy used when asked on the eve of the 2009 grand final what a defeat would mean in what was their 4th grand final on the trot to which he replied...

"Better to be 1 from 4 than none from none"

 

[Pera]

We've lost something like 27 GF's. Add our 15 premierships, 2 draws and we have been in 44 GF's in 124 years of football. That's a GF every 2.8 years off the top of my head.

Look at it this way, when we win the premiership this year, we will be the most successful side in VFL/AFL history on countback.

 

[jonbe54]

As I've posted before in other threads, twice in recent years we've bumped into AFL supported teams in the finals. But really, the '70's are the biggest problem we had, getting to a number of GF's and face planting but looked at objectively there were some fantastic teams going around with players that could win any game off their own boot.

Look at the other side of the coin, 44 GF appearances in nearly a century and a quarter is an astonishing performance. That's better than a 1 in 3 joy hit ratio of GF's in a competition with no less than 11 competitors.

That is a strong club culture.

 

[Blessed]

Colliwobbles.

 

[jonbe54]

Colliwobbles.

PLEASE don't say that word Blessed - its bad enough hearing Collihating rednecks parroting that thing since the '70's without hearing a Collingwood supporter saying it.

 

[Swooop]

It would be intereseting to hear a real Collingwood historian discuss each on in turn, so that a really accurate overview could be obtained, but my recollection in the main over the past since the 79 GF, is that we did very well even to make the GF and weren't the best team out there.

I know we've had key outs eg Carman in the draw against NM in the 76-77 whichever, and Jason Cloke/Rocca 02/03 and also bad calls eg Harmes 79 and Rocca 02, but i wasn't a close enough observer to know if the other teams had similar outs or bad calls to balance this.

Even this year, I felt we limped into it a bit and wasn't shocked we lost.

Last year, we were clearly the better team and thankfully got there, but in general, my view is we did very well to make lots of these GFs and weren't then the best team of the two before the first bounce.

 

[ipswichpies]

It is,nt a good record but I think if you looked at the Quality of the Players at our main rivals therein lay most of the reason for it,I will list the clubs and some players in no special order.

1 north =Cable,Blight,Dempsey and co

2 carlton =Doull,Southby,Jezza and co

3 Richmond =Hart,Bartlett,Roach and co

4 Hawthorn = Matthews,Hudson,Knights and co

5 Essendon = Madden,Watson,Hird and co

and this is without mentioning the Lions and Geelong clubs recent teams who have had the good fortune of having good players all over the park.

We have had some good players ourselves Daicos McKenna and Thompson
but not as many as the other clubs and it must be remembered we certainly until very recent times were not as well run as some of these clubs.

This is looking backwards towards the past but if you look at the present and into the future we have a very good chance at being successful,our recent drafting and developing of young players is up there with the best and therein lies the key to success with some of the players we have ATM
we have a very good chance at sustained success and don,t let anyone tell you otherwise.

We just have to make sure with the level of players we have at the club we are successful as we have seen over the past years players like Swan,Pendlebury,Thomas and Cloke do not come along all that regularly and you have make sure you get right at the time but I do feel with Eddie and the others we have our best chance.

We have been looking back and it is not good that must be addmitted but we must learn from past mistakes to get the best chance in the future if we don,t we will keep making the same ones again, sorry for such a longwinded post but we can really cash in with these players we have now it won,t happen to often as has been shown in the past,our current players are as good as any in the comp and we are as well run as anyone.

 

[daics cousin]

There's no culture issue, the 2011 group that lost the GF would have no idea (apart from a few Collingwood supporters in the group) of the losing GF sides of the 60's/70's etc.

We've had a bit of bad luck and have bumped into good teams, who knows the next 60 years may see us win 14 and lose 4...

Possibly ! but the pure fact is that Buckley now has a very good side and he should come out of it at the end of his tenure with a flag or two.

If Buckley can't win a flag or two with this current crop pf players he never will.

I know we hard a very hard run next year,better it harden's us up for finals we should win the flag,barring bad injuries.

This is buckleys time he should nuture this team into a super side,that should reign for a few years now.
I know the other teams are catching up but buckleys footy brain will help catapult us to the forefront of the competition whereby the pies will be innovators not imitators like the rest.

Let;s wait and see what happens over the next 2-3 years!Hopefully at least one or two more flags!

 

[76woodenspooners]

As I've posted before in other threads, twice in recent years we've bumped into AFL supported teams in the finals. But really, the '70's are the biggest problem we had, getting to a number of GF's and face planting but looked at objectively there were some fantastic teams going around with players that could win any game off their own boot.

Not so.

We lost 3 GF's in the 50's ('52, '55, '56) - but won 2 ('53, ' 58)
We lost 3 GF's in the 60's ('60, '64, '66) - and won none
We lost 3 GF's in the 70's ('70, '77, '79) - and won none

 

[76woodenspooners]

It would be intereseting to hear a real Collingwood historian discuss each on in turn, so that a really accurate overview could be obtained,

Absolutely agreed! We do seem to have an official club historian (Glenn McFarlane?), but we don't really hear much from him apart from the books. Maybe that's something that CFC media could look into?

I know we've had key outs eg Carman in the draw against NM in the 76-77 whichever

In 76 we were wooden spooners

 

[Blessed]

Since the halcyon days of the 30s and 40s, there has been a real trend.

That is over 70 years.

That is why when people said we will beat Geelong, I said, look at our history. We don’t just rock up to Grand Finals and win them when it is a 50/50 bet.

Even the year before against St Kilda when we were heavily favoured, we got a terrible case of the Colliwobbles in the last quarter of the drawn Grand final after having a substantial lead and were a bouncing ball into Milney’s arms away from losing that one. Of course we regrouped and trounced St Kilda in the replay; like the way we should have beaten them the week before.

But yeah, the Pies just don’t do Grand Finals very well. From the 1940s onwards.

Lets hope we can smash it this year.

 

[ipswichpies]

One thing that is obvious is that all others clubs lift their there games when playing against us whether it is during the season or during finals it is a certain thing to happen,you only need to see which other clubs list us as their biggest rival.

The current advertising campaign of us against them is so true you only have to look at BF and elsewhere to know it is accurate.

 

[Blessed]

The current advertising campaign of us against them is so true you only have to look at BF and elsewhere to know it is accurate.

Totally agree. You only had to see how non-Collingwod supporters wanted us to lose in the week before this years Grand Final. Some of them weren't even football fans or worse were Melbourne fans who hadn't been to the footy since 1958.

And we are over-hyped by the media because it sells paper.

A lot of supporters get sucked into it.

Plus we have had plain dumb bad luck.

Phil Carmen, Jason Cloke and Anthony Rocca suspensions all cost us premierships in the end.

 

[ipswichpies]

Totally agree. You only had to see how non-Collingwod supporters wanted us to lose in the week before this years Grand Final. Some of them weren't even football fans or worse were Melbourne fans who hadn't been to the footy since 1958.

And we are over-hyped by the media because it sells paper.

A lot of supporters get sucked into it.

Plus we have had plain dumb bad luck.

Phil Carmen, Jason Cloke and Anthony Rocca suspensions all cost us premierships in the end.

It is interesting you Mention Carmen if there is one player over the years who we missed the boat with it was him he really should have been anything such a wasted talent,if he were coming into our system today all you could say was all the others had better look out because he could really play.

Rocca,s suspension cost us any chance we had against the lions I will agree there Cloke,s suspension did cost us dearly but I am not sure it cost us the flag.

As I was saying earlier I think there is much less chance of some like Carmen getting through the cracks and not delivering on potential these days we generally get it right these days.

I also agree with your statement earlier that Pendlebury is one of the 3 best players to come into the club since I have been watching and that is since 1974 when I came here.

 

[76woodenspooners]

One thing that is obvious is that all others clubs lift their there games when playing against us whether it is during the season or during finals it is a certain thing to happen,you only need to see which other clubs list us as their biggest rival.

The current advertising campaign of us against them is so true you only have to look at BF and elsewhere to know it is accurate.

I agree with this.

In competitive pursuits it is sometimes a good strategy to be the type of opponent that others don't mind losing to.

And gotta admit, that's not something we do well (and likely don't want to do well)

Things like this count in a game like AFL where the outcome is determined by lots of little 1%'ers.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Most of the time we weren't good enough or unlucky

In 1964 and 1966 we weren't good enough and lost both by a kick
In 1970 we lost McKenna before half time
In 1977 we lost Carman to suspension
In 1979 we lost to a dodgy out of bounds call
In 1980 and 1981 not good enough
In 2002 and 2003 not good enough plus suspension
In 2011 we ran into a great side and had a few injuries and suspensions coming in to the finals.


Rose Hafey and Malthouse rarely had the best lists in the Competition.

We can regret 1970, 1979 and 2011 but that's about it.

 

[Blessed]

Rose Hafey and Malthouse rarely had the best lists in the Competition.

We can regret 1970, 1979 and 2011 but that's about it.

and 66 which was a toss of a coin. Yet you could say the same about 2011 with the first Grand Final.

So the Saints and us are 1 all.

 

[SchuPie]

I've always been proud of the record and support a club that will, regardless of talent, be in with a show to grab the top prize (apart from the black hole that was the 90s). I was born in 73 so missed the 70 GF - perhaps the only one we "should" have won. All the other GF appearances are a testament to our culture. There were times during that period that we shouldn't have even made the finals let alone the GF. The real question is, would you have preferred us to have lost any of the matches leading up the GFs so that we didn't make it and therefore not had a chance to win it? Further, when you are playing other teams that are more talented than you, you need luck - something that deserted us on two occasions; against Carlton and Brisbane. People go on about the unlucky bounce for Milne...please, as if we were't "owed" that one. We were the best team in 2010 and we won. We were the best team in 2011 but again "luck" in the form of injuries, suspensions, Heaters poor judgement and (in my opinion) an inability to adapt our playing style when the tide turned. Had any of the other teams in the 70-2000s had this run of issues we may have pinched other flags as well.

 

[ipswichpies]

I've always been proud of the record and support a club that will, regardless of talent, be in with a show to grab the top prize (apart from the black hole that was the 90s). I was born in 73 so missed the 70 GF - perhaps the only one we "should" have won. All the other GF appearances are a testament to our culture. There were times during that period that we shouldn't have even made the finals let alone the GF. The real question is, would you have preferred us to have lost any of the matches leading up the GFs so that we didn't make it and therefore not had a chance to win it? Further, when you are playing other teams that are more talented than you, you need luck - something that deserted us on two occasions; against Carlton and Brisbane. People go on about the unlucky bounce for Milne...please, as if we were't "owed" that one. We were the best team in 2010 and we won. We were the best team in 2011 but again "luck" in the form of injuries, suspensions, Heaters poor judgement and (in my opinion) an inability to adapt our playing style when the tide turned. Had any of the other teams in the 70-2000s had this run of issues we may have pinched other flags as well.

Absolutely agree 100% with this,it maybe a cliche but you have to be in it to win, in the 79 gf with harmes we were lucky that it was wet day because they would have been too fast for us but that dodgey call was what got them home no doubt,that first gf between us and the lions could have definately gone either way and they did get some lucky calls their way.

In 1980 we were belted and we had played 4 on the trot and were no chance in 1981 we got a 3 goal break late in the 3rd qtr and then they proceeded to kick 6 before 3 qtr time and we were gone it should be noted
that some these teams we have faced had far better players than we ourselves had IMO.

I think the opposite is true now that we do indeed have far better players than most clubs now and we are getting it right offield with our recruiting and development.

 

[lgarth80]

Not so.

We lost 3 GF's in the 50's ('52, '55, '56) - but won 2 ('53, ' 58)
We lost 3 GF's in the 60's ('60, '64, '66) - and won none
We lost 3 GF's in the 70's ('70, '77, '79) - and won none

I wasn't born...but looking at the ladder positions, etc.

1960 - Not good enough, Melbourne a better team, got pantsed.

1964 - Unlucky, Melbourne at end of era, we probably didn't have a great Full Forward, but nor did anyone. Lost by 4 points from last goal of game. Any other game Gabbo's shot would have won it.

1966 - Unlucky, Saints and us were really closely matched. Probably their hunger having never won vs ours having won 8 years earlier was the difference. 1 point loss means anything could have happened. 2010 was the swing and roundabouts our way.

1970 - Probably due to the Tuddenham-McKenna clash. Reduced effectiveness of both players. Carlton came back through champions stepping up; we tired and through poor kicking lost a game we never should. Carlton's team that era also won 1968 and 1972. They were a brilliant team - 3 in 5 puts them at the current Geelong team level.

1977 - Our young side tired and were over-run. We probably should have held on given 27 point 3/4 time lead, however North kicked very poorly and in game play should have arguably been ahead at 3/4 time. North's team made GFs from 1974 to 1978. A very good team. Ours came from the spoon and may have felt making the GF was good enough.

1979 - This would have been adequate revenge for 1970 as they were the side expected to win and do it easily, yet we almost pulled off the upset victory. Harmes and a dose of bad luck in the final quarter being short for some unknown reason possibly led to the defeat. Carlton won 1979-81-82, 3 in 4 years which only very few teams have done.


So - did we lose to good opponents?
1960, 1964, 1970, 1977, 1979 - unequivocally yes - the opponents went on to win other GFs in that era against not just Collingwood
1966 - arguably not, the Saints have won nothing else in their tragic history.

Looking at the other defeats since then:
1980 - Lost to a Richmond team similar to the 1964 Melbourne opponents - nearing the end of an era. Still, we were lucky to make it.
1981 - Lost to Carlton, ran out of legs after a long finals campaign. Carlton as indicated earlier won 3 out of 4 in that era.
2002 - Lost to Brisbane as part of 3-peat. Unlucky as the underdog.
2003 - Lost to Brisbane as part of 3-peat. Poor performance as favourite.
2011 - Lost to Geelong as part of 3 in 5 years. Probably deserved to lose and went into the game as underdog, as an unsettled preparation dogged the team through the year.

One could say we were lucky to make:
2011 - Hawthorn should have beaten us in the Prelim, and it took a miracle escape for us to win.
2002 - From 4th
1981 - Beating Fitzroy by a point in a Semi with a goal deep deep into time on.
1980 - From 5th

On the whole I think we should have won two more from the ones we were involved in. I would say one of 1964-66, and one out of 1970-77-79. These were the flags that went missing.

The others....well they were just our team doing what it always does, punching above its weight.

 

[MarkT2]

Is there something about our club culture that gets us to the Grand Final only to (usually) lose it?

If there isn't now there certainly has been over the years.There are probably a lot of contributing factors but the supportrers are IMO the main reason. A huge supporter base and a huge number of backslappers and hero worshippers amoung them. Unprofessional boards and old fashioned attitudes didn't help. whereas once we were forerunners, we became arrogant and long after money became a factor we clung to a playing for the greatest club in the land is enough attitude.

When we had players play well week after week on our small hostile home turf but fail in finals we didn't make the tough calls and we persisted with the same olds that failed last time. We often recruited good old fashioned hard & tough battling types and got beaten by more class particularly against Carlton.

You don't lose that many through bad luck. Bad luck can cost you if you are a goal up but not if you are 5 or 10 goals up.