For sure sherb much better having our setup last year with a couple of tall options with an armada of smalls, mids and flankers - even half backs ffs rotating through the forward line - can't stop that.
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Collingwood's appalling Grand Final record
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76woodenspooners
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Thanks for the trip down memory lane Sherb. '70 was before my time, but I was around '79.
I agree with your comment about Collingwood being their own worst enemies around that end of the 70's era. I reckon that there might have been a bit of what we refer to in the modern age as "fear of success" (yep, bizarre concept, but it's real)
Another factor that hasn't been discussed regarding the infamous 1970 GF loss was the strike by Collingwood players over summer of 1969/70.
Led by Des Tuddenham and Len Thompson, the players threatened to strike if they didn't get an increase in wages. The players had heard about the amount of money being payed to Richmond and Carlton players of the time and felt they were being poorly treated by the club. IIRC, the top Carlton/Richmond players were getting 20,000 p.a. compared to the top Collingwood players getting $10,000 p.a.
The theory was that when things got tight in the GF, the players tensions over the previous summer led to a less than urgent response when needed. Very difficult to know if this was indeed an issue.
Zoning, a plan to even the competition and stop Collingwood and Melbourne dominating, is also another factor in our numerous lost GFs. It's amazing how many star players ended up at Carlton and Hawthorn thanks to zoning. Both of those clubs modern success stories were built on the back of zoning.
Clubs with poor zones like Melbourne and Collingwood were forced into bidding for players. Often we chased players with offers of over $100,000 in those days. It not only led to financial problems, but often put their future teammates' noses out of joint over the money being offered. Hence team harmony suffered. If you got a player through zoning ,you payed their original club eg Warnambool , $500.
Hence it always makes me laugh to hear Hawthorn and Carlton supporters complaining about the modern draft being socialism in football. If it wern't for the socialism of zoning, I doubt Hawthorn would still exist and Carlton would be just another Melbourne club.
The amazing club of the 1960's and 1970's was Richmond. They had a pretty ordinary zone too but through the most ruthless manager in AFL/VFL history in Graeme Richmond, they prospered. How they pinched Dick Clay from North Melbourne and Kevin Sheedy and numerous others was as intriguing as a Le Carre spy novel of that period. Being the roughest, toughest, meanest club with a coach the players loved obviously helped.
I always thought that if we had of gotten Neil Balme to the club 20 years earlier, we may have won a few flags in the 1970's. One thing for sure is that Jim O'Dea would never have played another game after the cowardly hit on John Greening. Balme was the roughest, toughest, meanest footballer I have ever seen. One of the only players I have ever seen that was both a good ruckman and a good full forward.
Led by Des Tuddenham and Len Thompson, the players threatened to strike if they didn't get an increase in wages. The players had heard about the amount of money being payed to Richmond and Carlton players of the time and felt they were being poorly treated by the club. IIRC, the top Carlton/Richmond players were getting 20,000 p.a. compared to the top Collingwood players getting $10,000 p.a.
The theory was that when things got tight in the GF, the players tensions over the previous summer led to a less than urgent response when needed. Very difficult to know if this was indeed an issue.
Zoning, a plan to even the competition and stop Collingwood and Melbourne dominating, is also another factor in our numerous lost GFs. It's amazing how many star players ended up at Carlton and Hawthorn thanks to zoning. Both of those clubs modern success stories were built on the back of zoning.
Clubs with poor zones like Melbourne and Collingwood were forced into bidding for players. Often we chased players with offers of over $100,000 in those days. It not only led to financial problems, but often put their future teammates' noses out of joint over the money being offered. Hence team harmony suffered. If you got a player through zoning ,you payed their original club eg Warnambool , $500.
Hence it always makes me laugh to hear Hawthorn and Carlton supporters complaining about the modern draft being socialism in football. If it wern't for the socialism of zoning, I doubt Hawthorn would still exist and Carlton would be just another Melbourne club.
The amazing club of the 1960's and 1970's was Richmond. They had a pretty ordinary zone too but through the most ruthless manager in AFL/VFL history in Graeme Richmond, they prospered. How they pinched Dick Clay from North Melbourne and Kevin Sheedy and numerous others was as intriguing as a Le Carre spy novel of that period. Being the roughest, toughest, meanest club with a coach the players loved obviously helped.
I always thought that if we had of gotten Neil Balme to the club 20 years earlier, we may have won a few flags in the 1970's. One thing for sure is that Jim O'Dea would never have played another game after the cowardly hit on John Greening. Balme was the roughest, toughest, meanest footballer I have ever seen. One of the only players I have ever seen that was both a good ruckman and a good full forward.
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If you want to know why we didnt win premierships between 1958 and 1990, there are a couple of reasons that were important but not many people mention them.
The first is bad administration. The bad luck and the lack of star players resulted from bad administration. The administration thought that the players would play for nothing and that the best players would just show up at the gate asking for a game. When we went looking for players interstate, it was half-assed like Peter Eakins and later with Mark Williams and Greg Phillips. Half the time, the main focus seemed to be getting control of the board....
The second reason was being happy with just winning at Vic Park. The team used to win 90% of games there and everyone would go back to the social club and get drunk and slap each other on the back...... and forget that premierships were won at the MCG.
The first is bad administration. The bad luck and the lack of star players resulted from bad administration. The administration thought that the players would play for nothing and that the best players would just show up at the gate asking for a game. When we went looking for players interstate, it was half-assed like Peter Eakins and later with Mark Williams and Greg Phillips. Half the time, the main focus seemed to be getting control of the board....
The second reason was being happy with just winning at Vic Park. The team used to win 90% of games there and everyone would go back to the social club and get drunk and slap each other on the back...... and forget that premierships were won at the MCG.
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The second paragraph is the really pertinant point and you are correct it is hardly ever mentioned but it is the single most important fact how many bunfights have we seen over the years to get control of the board.
If we had been as well run over the years as Hawthorn,Carlton,Richmond,
North or the Bombers we may have been more successful and who knows what could have been but it definately is a big factor that cannot be denied.
It is also where we are so lucky today to have Ed and the others running the show this is the key to continued success,look at our drafting and development of young players,players who want to play here because they can see a chance of winning and having the chance to be as good they can be.
Look at our recruiting in the most recent drafts,this is the way we become better for the future,the other clubs are terrorfied we could become what we should have been all along and what we were prior to WW2,we have definately been handicapped by some of the adminstrations we have had over the years not so now.
Ps Great point you make Mark in your post and it has led to many failures over the journey but hopefully we have got it right these days,Last year we lost in the GF but we did at least get there the last time we won we sunk without a trace the next year and I have always thought that the players from 90 were good enough to win more than 1.
... another factor that went against us before half time in '79 was Russell Ohlsen being knocked out by Trevor Keogh. Ohlsen was dominating in the wet and was a major reason we got out to the 5 goal lead. After he was whacked by Keogh, he lost all influence on the game.
The '81 Grand Final is hardest to categorise as either 'one that got away' or 'beaten by a better side'. Both Carl and Coll finished the season on 17 wins. We beat Carlton on both occasions we met during the season (thrashed them at Princes Park, won by one point at Vic Park), but Carlton finished with a higher % -resulting in them finishing on top and getting a week's rest due to the old 'final 5 system'. The 'Pies lost the Qualifying Final to Geelong (who were a very good side themselves) with their ruckman Mossop playing the game of his career. That meant we had to win two sudden-death finals to make the Grannie. We beat Fitzroy by a point in a classic game, then turned the tables on Geelong at Waverley by 5 points. Carlton beat Geelong comfortably in the semi final to go straight to the Grannie -with another week's rest! So, by the virtue of their higher %, Carlton played one final to make the Grannie, we played three hard fought finals. Like in '79, it was a wet Grand Final day. We again got out to a handy lead -this time in the 3rd Q, but Carlton scored the last couple of goals before 3/4T and we ran out off legs, getting run over in the last quarter. Peter Moore played with a torn hamstring and was clearly beaten by Mike Fitzpatrick.
I still reckon the major factor in determing who wins Grand Finals between relatively equally talented teams is the luck on the day. Which team has made it to the last day with fewer injuries, which team gets the lucky breaks. In '70, '79 and '81 -all the breaks went Carlton's way. In '79 and '81, Hafey extracted every last ounce of ability from those teams.
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That is true to an extent but in the 60, 70 and early 80's Collingwood had access to the worst zone. Other clubs such as Hawthorn and Carlton were given far bigger and more fertile catchments.
In today's language, it would be like GC getting the pick of the draft each year. From memory, Hawthorn's zone produced Brereton, Matthews, Mew, Ablett & co. The only player of note from our zone was Billy Picken, it was considered the weakest area in the country.
IIRC, Peter Moore played the limping full forward role and a guy called Ian Aitken(or Atkins)????? played in the ruck that day.
As good as EM has been commercially for the club, we still have a poor GF record under his administration. 5 GFs and just 1 win. That's just 20%.
In the early part of the EM tenure, bad mistakes in the football area were made, nost notably the swaping of the no.3 pick in the 1999 draft that should have got us Pavlich. Letting the club's second best player in Paul Williams go to Sydney was another example.
The administration took a long time to rectify the poor drafting period that stretched through to about 2006. Kudos to EM that he has now fixed the problem.
Our future , however, is not that certain with regard to Premierships. WE are in the middle of a long stretch of being locked out of the chance to get high draft picks. Our best 22 players are more than capable, but beyond them names such as Josh Thomas, Ben Sinclair, Tom Young, Johnathon Ceglar, Jarryd Witts. Laclan Keefe ect. don't fill me with the expectations of winning premierships.
That was the extraordinary thing, Hawthorn seemed to have zones everywhere. Brereton came from Frankston, Mew from Rosebud, Mathews from Aspendale, Ablett from Drouin, Ayres from Warragul, Knights from Longwarry, Dipierdomenico from Bulleen/Templestowe.
Even Darren Millane( Dandenong/Noble Park) was in their zone. He left Hawthorn because noboby would talk to him. So let alone their entire galaxy of stars, they could afford to give away, arguably, best footballer of all time and a player who would have been in the top 10 players in the AFL between 1988-1991.
I wonder if there was a Hawthorn supporter involved in the setting up of zones?
We were clear favourites in 1970, 1990, 2003 and 2010. So only 1970 and 2003 were we clear favourites and lost.
Hawthorn have tended to be clear favourites in most of their GF wins. In 1984 they lost as favourites.
Carlton won premierships in 1970, 1972 and 1982, possibly 1987 as well although I am not sure on that one, when not favourites.
I can't speak of the others but 2003 & 2010 I wouldn't say Collingwood were clear favourites. 2003 we had the punters on our side and then Rocca got rubbed out. IIRC the majority of experts (I use that term loosely) tipped Brisbane to win after the Rocca suspension. 2010 was about 60-40 with the experts in favour of the Pies, with probably more than half tipping the Saints to win in the replay.
Well you are right of course but I think the one,s against the Lions we were not really favoured to win,apart from the 2nd one but really when we lost Rocca we were no chance,the 1st one against the Saints we did nearly blow it,against the cats it did not feel like we were going to win to many out of form and unfit players,we were done for after rd 24 when we
should have tried a bit harder we just gave them far to much phsyological
advantage.
I think some of these young lads the club have brought in recent seasons are a good chance of making the grade as we are bringing these kids through better than we have ever done in the past,to the fella,s who posted about our zones in the past I will agree they did us no favours but they never have done,I think if we had been better run club we would have been a chance.
I reckon it is the capablities of EM and the team which does give me hope for the future,we have had a few false starts in the past but this time I do think we close to getting it right probably as close as we have ever been.
Seeing we directly swapped the draft picks gained from Sydney for Williams to Freo for James Clement and Brodie Holland it was a pretty good deal. Williams played 10 years with us and had plateaued. He never gave us the leadership we were hoping he would show. No doubting he was a good player, but I reckon we came out in front on that deal.
Just before the Carlton players headed back to the ground to begin the 3rd quarter of the '70 grand final Ron Barassi insisted that Ted Hopkins replace Brett Thornley after Barassi himself was initially convinced by the match committee that it was too risky to make a move like that (a player coming to the bench could not go back on in those days).
That last minute change of mind by Barassi at the end of half time may have determined the outcome of the game. Carlton did not hit the front until very late in the last quarter and Hopkins kicked 4 goals. The pies may have hung on to win if Barassi did not get his way and Hopkins came on later, say late in the 3rd quarter or the last quarter.
Fair point.
I have always thought that Williams would have been very valuable in the 2002 GF. We really lacked that extra quality midfielder and a player who crumbed goals up forward. Much more important than Clement or Holland. Clement didn't play on Brisbane's big 3 in Lynch, Brown or Akermanis so wasn't going to be a match winner for us. Brodie Holland was not a player I rated very highly.
Williams won 2 B&Fs at Sydney, so it could be argued that he had not plateaued. I also rememeber that then coach at Sydney Rodney Eade said he was the best player at Sydney at the time.
Just my opinion.
Cheers for the post.
There has been a lot of rumours since about what Barassi said/did at half time in that game.
I can't remember a lot of handball after half time, one of the most popular rumours of the time. I do recall Carlton playing on at all costs after half time, so they speeded the game up.
The Hopkins thing has always annoyed me as IMO he was an absolute dud but made a major impact in a GF. He was virtually never sighted thereafter.
I remember at the time watching that Jesaulenko kick in the last quarter that rolled and rolled and rolled for what seemed like an eternity before going through. I knew then that Collingwood were not going to win.
Jesaulenko was a superstar so that was a little easier to take than Ted Hopkins.
Agreed Hopkins was an absolute nothing before and after that game, one half of football where he played totally out of his skin
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If you read 'Kill for Collingwood' it has a great section on zoning. At 1 point, Hawthorn had a catchment area of 180 K, we had a third of that size. Collingwood and Geelong campaigned to VFL at the start of the 80's to alter the inequity.
The man who devised it was Kenneth Luke, a known Collingwood hater. He made sure Carlton got the most fertile grounds in Victoria after his club were in a premiership drought.
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I have read 'Kill For Collingwood' many years ago but had forgotten the above facts.
Its actually amazing the success we have had considering the hamstringing that zoning gave us. Particularly when you look at how zoning was introduced to cut Collingwood and Melbourne back to the pack and how much more effective it was against the Demons.
Kenneth Luke also did very well for himself by selling the land he owned to the League that became the white elephant that was VFL Park , or Arctic Park as it was more accurately known.
Funny that 30 years on from the Geelong/Collingwood complaints about zoning, that Geelong and Collingwood, now rid of zoning, are the strongest 2 clubs.
Kenneth Luke- you arseh*le!!!!!
I like the conspiracy theory around zoning.
You combine the natural advantages that Hawthorn and Carlton had with their zones to their $ spent on interstate champions, and there was no surprise that both teams won plenty of games in the late 70s and early 80s.
Thing is, we had one of the best quality city zones in the Diamond Valley area. Such a good zone that when the Under 19s was changed to the "Under 18s", the Northern Knights went on a 4 premierships in a row rampage until the zone was slashed in half.
The way the zones tended to work is that teams had either a great city zone and an average country zone (Collingwood, Essendon getting the worst treatment), or a great country zone and a poor city zone. I'm pretty sure all teams had at least some zone of quality to get a few decent players.
The problem with Hawthorn was that they having the area in Melbourne's south-east, enjoyed a zone that was defined as country that ended up being populated like a city zone. This swathe of land gave Hawthorn many champion players, and in hindsight, basically gifted the Hawks 30,000 members. Clearly the best zone, and blow me down, they were able to win the most premierships until this rort was ended by the draft. Hawthorn really only has the 2008 flag since. (Late 80s & Early 90s team was compromising many zoned players)
Carlton, the bastards, got Bendigo, along with their successful inner Melbourne "Italian/Greek" area. They were able to have two drinks from the well, and it is no surprise that players of rare quality came from these areas. No surprise also that they have not won a flag since 1995, and even that win had players who were zoned to Carlton or bought pre-salary cap.
Sadly, the draft/salary cap came at the wrong time for Collingwood, as I think that our city zone would have made us unstoppable through the early 90s. It was the inability from our recruiting staff to react and change our ways in the early days of the draft that meant the team that should have dominated after a flag in 1990 languished to the spoon in 1999.
In terms of zoning, I think the reason Collingwood and Geelong got rolled in their move was that teams with already poor country zones were scared they would get a worse city zone and then be subjected to years down the bottom. So these teams voted the move down, and entrenched Hawthorn and Carlton up the top.
Still, can't help hating on Kenneth Luke and Arctic Park.
Whatever spin you want to put on it at least through the 70's and 80's when I was in my teens and early 20's Collingwood suffered from Grand Final jitters. That isn't to say that we always had the best talent on the park but we often had the best team in the league. A good friend once said to me, "You get your value out of your team by seeing them win week in and week out. Premierships are just the icing on the cake!" I never really quite subscribed to that theory and I remember breaking down in tears long before the final siren in the '77 replay. Call it the colliwobbles or what ever you want, in that era there was a curse on the Pies that was only buried in 1990. Having been born in '59 it was the most amazing moment in my life when Lethal walked down the stand and shook his fist in joy but hell it was a long time coming.
You would like to think that Collingwood has moved on from that curse but recent trends over the last 10 years ('11 not withstanding) won't want to continue so for me it's '12 or bust. Our window is wide open but won't be for long with GWS and GC being handed all the chocolates on a plate while we scramble to keep our list together. The biggest concern for me is the short term contract of a few of our players and especially Pendles. Unfortunately, though I pray I'm wrong, I smell a rat in that one.
You would like to think that Collingwood has moved on from that curse but recent trends over the last 10 years ('11 not withstanding) won't want to continue so for me it's '12 or bust. Our window is wide open but won't be for long with GWS and GC being handed all the chocolates on a plate while we scramble to keep our list together. The biggest concern for me is the short term contract of a few of our players and especially Pendles. Unfortunately, though I pray I'm wrong, I smell a rat in that one.
East Pie the last 15 years or so has seen unparalleled growth and meddling by the AFL, we have suffered more than most in being the 'best of the rest' when the AFL are feather bedding the comp for the new teams.
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Lets hope not this time. We are cherry ripe with no excuses.
76woodenspooners
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I am really enjoying this thread.
I've appreciated reading the often long and considered comments that people have written on this topic. A special thanks for the very constructive and insightful comments from those supporters of other clubs, generally clubs that have contributed to Collingwoods appalling Grand Final Record.
I've trawled (not trolled) through this thread and gathered all the reasons people have submitted. I've put them in the OP and copied them below. They're in no particular order. If I've made mistakes or missed anything then let me know and I'll edit it.
1) We've actually overachieved by getting to so many GF's, but then we simply haven't been the dominant team.
2) We've bumped into AFL supported teams (eg: Brisbane in 2002, 2003)
3) Key suspensions have cost us (eg: , Carman in '77, J Cloke in '02, A Rocca in '03, H Shaw & D Thomas during '11)
4) Our rivals have had more stars.
5) Poor administration
6) Our rivals lift their games when playing against us.
7) Our opponents are better than us.
8) Key injuries during the GF (eg: McKenna in'70, Ohlsen in '79)
9) Dodgy umpiring (eg: out of bounds call in '79)
10) Out coached ('70, '11)
11) Bad Luck (eg: '66)
12) We were tired compared with our opponents (overtrained in '77, long finals campaign in '81)
13) Attitude of supporters - huge number of hero worshippers and backslappers
14) Unprofessional Board of Directors
15) Old fashioned attitudes. Beaten by class.
16) Poor player selection.
17) Poor recruiting (eg: missing KB in '78, half hearted attempt at interstate recruiting)
18) Poor zone allocation compared with our rivals.
19) Lack of hunger ('11)
20) We have a natural crowd advantage over others that gets us to the GF, but we lose that advantage in the GF itself.
21) Couldn't kick straight ('70)
22) Weight of expectation that comes from being the most supported club in the country.
23) Not enough heart.
24) Too predictable ('70)
25) Fear of success
26) Disruption due to player strike ('70)
27) Poor administration
28) Content with winning at Victoria Park - but the GF is at MCG.
I've appreciated reading the often long and considered comments that people have written on this topic. A special thanks for the very constructive and insightful comments from those supporters of other clubs, generally clubs that have contributed to Collingwoods appalling Grand Final Record.
I've trawled (not trolled) through this thread and gathered all the reasons people have submitted. I've put them in the OP and copied them below. They're in no particular order. If I've made mistakes or missed anything then let me know and I'll edit it.
1) We've actually overachieved by getting to so many GF's, but then we simply haven't been the dominant team.
2) We've bumped into AFL supported teams (eg: Brisbane in 2002, 2003)
3) Key suspensions have cost us (eg: , Carman in '77, J Cloke in '02, A Rocca in '03, H Shaw & D Thomas during '11)
4) Our rivals have had more stars.
5) Poor administration
6) Our rivals lift their games when playing against us.
7) Our opponents are better than us.
8) Key injuries during the GF (eg: McKenna in'70, Ohlsen in '79)
9) Dodgy umpiring (eg: out of bounds call in '79)
10) Out coached ('70, '11)
11) Bad Luck (eg: '66)
12) We were tired compared with our opponents (overtrained in '77, long finals campaign in '81)
13) Attitude of supporters - huge number of hero worshippers and backslappers
14) Unprofessional Board of Directors
15) Old fashioned attitudes. Beaten by class.
16) Poor player selection.
17) Poor recruiting (eg: missing KB in '78, half hearted attempt at interstate recruiting)
18) Poor zone allocation compared with our rivals.
19) Lack of hunger ('11)
20) We have a natural crowd advantage over others that gets us to the GF, but we lose that advantage in the GF itself.
21) Couldn't kick straight ('70)
22) Weight of expectation that comes from being the most supported club in the country.
23) Not enough heart.
24) Too predictable ('70)
25) Fear of success
26) Disruption due to player strike ('70)
27) Poor administration
28) Content with winning at Victoria Park - but the GF is at MCG.
