Alternatively over training after the draw, picking Molloy and playing Jason Cloke at CHF, rucking Fraser & playing Walker cost us those GFs.
When we look to ourselves for the reasions and then do something about it we will win a lot more GFs.
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Collingwood's appalling Grand Final record
- Thread starter 76woodenspooners
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When we look to ourselves for the reasions and then do something about it we will win a lot more GFs.
Fantastic post lgarth, really good overview, so really we're only two down on what we should have been.
Are these unlucky losses balanced out by any lucky wins I wonder.
I seem to recall 1990 we were perhaps a little lucky to end up with a flag, somememory of Sumich with a terrible miss getting us through at semi or PF stage??
Don't recall hearing many details of 53 and 58 ...
Are these unlucky losses balanced out by any lucky wins I wonder.
I seem to recall 1990 we were perhaps a little lucky to end up with a flag, somememory of Sumich with a terrible miss getting us through at semi or PF stage??
Don't recall hearing many details of 53 and 58 ...
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I remember this game vividly and we were incredibly lucky in 1990. Sumich had a set shot from the left of the goalsquare about ten metres out with seconds remaining. Pies only led by a point and a goal obviously means the Pies lose and have to play the following week using our double chance.
Of course Sumich missed, levelling the scores and a draw ensued. However, due to the idiosyncrasies of the finals fixtuirng back then, a reply was scheduled the following week against the Eagles.
Bombers enjoying their week off suddenly had two weeks off and no match practice. Pies smashed the Eagles in the replay and then smashed the Bombers (who were really flat) the following week. Bombers regrouped and won their way into the granny but by this team the Pies had all the momentum and the form and the rest they say is history
AFL changed the rules of finals after 1990, making certain there would be no more draws in any finals with the exception being the grand final.
So there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Pies got the rub of the green/fixturing/luck whatever you want to call it in 1990.
- Banned
- #29
If you are savvy with history, we have been our worst enemy.
From Ron Todd (who was better than Coleman) walking out on the club over a pay dispute (for many years we believed to pay every player equally) to self inflicted acts such as Phil Carmen & then John Greening in the 70's being king hit cost us multiple premierships. We had Superboot signed in 1978 & the board wouldn't allow it even though we would have won multiple flags in this period without question.
KB was on his way to sign at Collingwood but our own coach talked him out of it in his peak years.
It's hard to say we lost all the GF's post 58' due to culture. Our zone (it was the worst one) should have meant we were an also ran, other clubs such as Hawthorn & Carlton were gifted zones, which created an unfair league.
From Ron Todd (who was better than Coleman) walking out on the club over a pay dispute (for many years we believed to pay every player equally) to self inflicted acts such as Phil Carmen & then John Greening in the 70's being king hit cost us multiple premierships. We had Superboot signed in 1978 & the board wouldn't allow it even though we would have won multiple flags in this period without question.
KB was on his way to sign at Collingwood but our own coach talked him out of it in his peak years.
It's hard to say we lost all the GF's post 58' due to culture. Our zone (it was the worst one) should have meant we were an also ran, other clubs such as Hawthorn & Carlton were gifted zones, which created an unfair league.
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If you're claiming to be so savvy with your history youll know that John Coleman retired at age 25 due to injury
All teams have bad luck and the loss of Coleman is probably the biggest single loss that any team has ever suffered.
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- #32
They still got multiple premierships out of Coleman.
As far as Ron Todd goes, he kicked 330 goals by the age of 22 & then went to the VFA. Most of his Collingwood career was spent as the 2nd fiddle to Gordon Coventry & he still had an average 4.4 goals from CHF & then he moved to FF for 2 brief years after Coventry retired. What would have been his output/average if he didn't have to compete with Coventry early days?
He kicked 188 goals in a VFA season (which is a record) when the standard of that competition wasn't inferior to the VFL. Bob Pratt, Coventry, Bunton, Laurie Nash (who like Todd is largely underrated), Mohr, Vallence & co are on public record that Todd was the greatest FF they ever saw.
Collingwood would have at least 3 more flags if Todd had stayed. Time to learn your history.
We had three GF losses with Todd in full flight, and after Todd left we didn't even make the finals for four years.
Exactly which three premierships should we have won after Todd left?
I'd suggest our decline was more due to the war, and being a working class club losing a lot of players serving their country.
For what it's worth Pratt left his club at age 26 for the big money in the VFA.
Collingwood wasn't the only team that had to compete with the country leagues and the VFA to retain their star players.
Exactly which three premierships should we have won after Todd left?
I'd suggest our decline was more due to the war, and being a working class club losing a lot of players serving their country.
For what it's worth Pratt left his club at age 26 for the big money in the VFA.
Collingwood wasn't the only team that had to compete with the country leagues and the VFA to retain their star players.
Better to make it than not and on a lot of occasions we weren't in the top 2 or 3 sides going around. Yet in other years, including years we didn't even make the GF, we choked.
Won 15, played in and lost more than anyone else that's just how it is.
Won 15, played in and lost more than anyone else that's just how it is.
We had three GF losses with Todd in full flight, and after Todd left we didn't even make the finals for four years.
Exactly which premiership should we have won in that time?
I'd suggest our decline was more due to the war, and being a working class club losing a lot of players serving their country.
For what it's worth Pratt left his club at age 26 for the big money in the VFA.
Collingwood wasn't the only team that had to compete with the country leagues and the VFA to retain their star players.
Exactly which premiership should we have won in that time?
I'd suggest our decline was more due to the war, and being a working class club losing a lot of players serving their country.
For what it's worth Pratt left his club at age 26 for the big money in the VFA.
Collingwood wasn't the only team that had to compete with the country leagues and the VFA to retain their star players.
It depends on your point of view I suppose, we had great teams in the '70's and really should have won a couple. 50's Melbourne were super strong and we did well to win 2 - especially '58.
My point of view is if you have a strong team for a decade and fail to win a GF then something is not quite right and that certainly applies to the '70's.
You're kidding right???I agree with this.
In competitive pursuits it is sometimes a good strategy to be the type of opponent that others don't mind losing to.
And gotta admit, that's not something we do well (and likely don't want to do well)
Things like this count in a game like AFL where the outcome is determined by lots of little 1%'ers.
Collingwood have been hated by the rest of the league for as long as I can remember, and I saw my first game in '64.
It has nothing to do with image management and plenty to do with an ingrained antipathy assiduously fostered by both the media and the rest of the league.
Every rising generation has hate for Collingwood and its supporters indoctrinated into the vast bulk of the non Collingwood supporting population.
It will never change no matter what we do.
76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
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- #38
I don't believe we're disagreeing with each other.
Yes, we're hated. I don't know why - maybe it dates back to the early days when we were winning a lot of Premierships. And we were very working class. Maybe the ferals winning was upsetting the natural order of things?
But still, we don't make much attempt to endear ourselves to our opponents. Eddie labelling GWS as the land of the falafel wasn't the most polite thing to say. We on the Collingwood board aren't usually very hospitible to other supporters who wander by here lost. "It's us against them" isn't the most conciliatory of team slogans.
Maybe we'd be hated regardless? But we certainly don't make any attempt to be the kind of opponent that others don't mind losing to. And I'm not necessarily suggesting we should be.
I agree we make no effort to placate the rest of the world for the fact of our existence as we shouldn't.
Eddie probably believes - as I do - that no amount of boot licking or overpriced "image management" is going to make the slightest difference.
Agree with the rest of your post 76WS, but reckon we're pretty accommodating in this regard ( though a Geelong supporter was very recently shown the door so he'd agree with you I'm sure
)Back on topic, it seems we did lose a couple we should have won, but perhaps snagged 58 and 90 against the odds, which just about balances the ledger.
So perhaps it's just we have shown great character to make GFs we really shouldn't have, and were subsequently found out.
I think the bad rep mainly comes from a few perceived ( rightly or wrongly ) chokes eg 70 and 77 and rotten luck eg 77, 79 and 02
Total agreement Swoop we have made a number of GF's we had no business being in with the personnel at our disposal.Agree with the rest of your post 76WS, but reckon we're pretty accommodating in this regard ( though a Geelong supporter was very recently shown the door so he'd agree with you I'm sure
Back on topic, it seems we did lose a couple we should have won, but perhaps snagged 58 and 90 against the odds, which just about balances the ledger.
So perhaps it's just we have shown great character to make GFs we really shouldn't have, and were subsequently found out.
I think the bad rep mainly comes from a few perceived ( rightly or wrongly ) chokes eg 70 and 77 and rotten luck eg 77, 79 and 02
76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
- Thread starter
- #42
It's not about boot licking.
For example, if you were playing a game of pool. Who would you rather lose to, Scott Pendlebury or Heath Shaw? Nick Riewoldt or Stephen Milne?
It may not necessarily be about liking the opponent. It may not even be about respecting them. It may just come down to not wanting to get slapped by a flying t**d if you lose to them.
I'm sure Eddie puts a lot of effort into managing our image. Calling GWS the land of the falafel may not be polite, but it's great for publicity. And that's what ultimately puts bums on seats.
If you are trying to make yourself palatable to an unreasonably hostile public IMHO its boot licking.
In my life time 1990, 2003, 2010 were the only years we were in as favourites, and we got 2 out of 3.
2002, 2011 we clearly weren't expected to win (yes, 2011 we weren't expected to win because we were physically broken in the last 6 weeks)
So it's actually a pretty good record, and to make them when we weren't the clear best sides is pretty f****n good.
2002, 2011 we clearly weren't expected to win (yes, 2011 we weren't expected to win because we were physically broken in the last 6 weeks)
So it's actually a pretty good record, and to make them when we weren't the clear best sides is pretty f****n good.
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Just on 1977 - that really was one we let go. In 1976 we were the best wooden spooners of all time and really only finished last because of internal issues that the players got involved in. In 1977 we actually were the side in the comp. We should have won the first GF after being 27 up at 3/4 time. hafey then over tranined the side and we were flat for te replay. In 1979 we were probably behind Carlton for talent and lost a close one but the players we have around that time should have snared at least 1 flag. Add Greening and Carman to 1977 and were would have walked the first GF in. That's the luck part but we still could have won if not for shooting ourselves in the foot again.
Stan alves trashed Wayne Gordon on the wing. He would not have had it as easy against John greening who would have been about 27 and at the peak of his career.
And up forward carman would definitley have been the difference.
north fans would remind us that breidis kicked seven behinds and that we should not have come close to even drawing the game, but carman and greening would easily have been our best two players. Shame they never played together.
The Collingwood player I felt sorriest for in '77 was Twiggy Dunne, a fine player for us and kicked the goal to drag us back level if I remember correctly. Such a shame he didn't get a medal.
Yep had a set shot from about 20m out, straight in front.
Went back and slotted a torp straight through. Cool as a cucumber.
Not sure how often they used drop punts then, I don't think they did at all, not sure when they sort of took over
Went back and slotted a torp straight through. Cool as a cucumber.
Not sure how often they used drop punts then, I don't think they did at all, not sure when they sort of took over
Seems like the drop punt has snuck up on us older supporters. There's nothing so fine though as when a good long kick really nails a torp - they just go and go and go, leaving the defenders with sunburnt mouths.
