Cox v Gawn

[danster168]

I think if you had to take the player on the whole then it's Gawn. Gawn arguably the better player, but throw in the leadership ability and the marketability then I think it's not really a fair comparison anymore. 8 time all-australian and let's not forget that 1 of those years was ruined by Grundy. So very easily could've been 9 time AA. And he's not done either.

 

[Blackas87]

23 Brownlow votes for Max this year, takes his career total to 144 which is now doubled Cox’s 71.

 

[danster168]

23 Brownlow votes for Max this year, takes his career total to 144 which is now doubled Cox’s 71.

Game over.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

23 Brownlow votes for Max this year, takes his career total to 144 which is now doubled Cox’s 71.

You right, Brownlow votes are a great indicator of who the best player is.

Improvements in sports science in the last 10-15 years extending careers by 3-4 years allowing for more opportunity to get career Brownlow votes like the other guy mentioned is rubbish.

Gawn's ability to take those famous contested marks around the ground and then turn the ball over or create a 50/ 50 ball is what always set him apart.

The Tom Mitchell of ruckmen is my GOAT

Also he's marketable which means he is better than Dean Cox

 

[Blackas87]

You right, Brownlow votes are a great indicator of who the best player is.

Improvements in sports science in the last 10-15 years extending careers by 3-4 years allowing for more opportunity to get career Brownlow votes like the other guy mentioned is rubbish.

Gawn's ability to take those famous contested marks around the ground and then turn the ball over or create a 50/ 50 ball is what always set him apart.

The Tom Mitchell of ruckmen is my GOAT

Also he's marketable which means he is better than Dean Cox

Weird take. Gawn for one has played less games than the other guy mentioned so not sure how sport science has got him double the amount Brownlow votes?

Gawn this year ranked equal 119th for turnovers, unlike this years Brownlow medalist who was top 10 in turnovers and number 1 in clangers. Current Brownlow medalist the new Tom Mitchell of midfielders?

 

[Young Redleg]

Weird take. Gawn for one has played less games than the other guy mentions so not sure how sport science has got him double the amount Brownlow votes?

Gawn this year ranked equal 119th for turnovers, unlike this years Brownlow medalist who was top 10 in turnovers and number 1 in clangers. Current Brownlow medalist the new Tom Mitchell of midfielders?

Honestly Gawn's field kicking isn't even that bad for a guy of his size.

People assume that just because he's a horrendous set shot he's a poor kick around the rest of the ground too.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Weird take. Gawn for one has played less games than the other guy mentions so not sure how sport science has got him double the amount Brownlow votes?

Gawn this year ranked equal 119th for turnovers, unlike this years Brownlow medalist who was top 10 in turnovers and number 1 in clangers. Current Brownlow medalist the new Tom Mitchell of midfielders?

He ranks #1 for turnovers for rucks this year, and is easily #1 over the last 5 years.

Ruckmen kick it long down the line almost always, as almost all of them can't kick to save themselves, so they aren't going to have a have a high amount of turnovers as a general rule.

Anytime this guy tries to actually hit a target there's a 50% chance he turns it over or makes a 50/ 50 ball

 

[Blackas87]

He ranks #1 for turnovers for rucks this year, and is easily #1 over the last 5 years.

Ruckmen kick it long down the line almost always, as almost all of them can't kick to save themselves, so they aren't going to have a have a high amount of turnovers as a general rule.

Anytime this guy tries to actually hit a target there's a 50% chance he turns it over or makes a 50/ 50 ball

Gawn is also number 1 in the league out of ruckman for effective disposals, but you leave that out because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

Number 1 in turnovers because he has more possessions than other ruckman, only ruckman to average 20 possessions this year. More possessions you are more likely going to turn it over. Hence players like Tom Mitchel, Matt Rowell turn the ball over a lot.

I also completely disagree about every Gawn kicks it’s a 50% he turns it over. Gawn’s kicking I’d say is one of the better out of ruckman in the league today.

If you look at turnovers per possession Gawn is not number 1 out of ruckman, not even close.

Top 20 ruckman by total hitouts this year in order of their turnover rate.

Flynn 55 turnovers from 229 possessions 24.0%
6.7 kicks - 6.0 handballs

Darcy 35 turnovers from 167 possessions 20.9%
4.88 kicks - 4.9 handball

Fort 42 turnovers from 205 possessions 20.5%
6.1 kicks 4.2 handballs

Briggs 42 turnovers from 222 disposals, 18.9%
5.8 kicks, 5.3 handballs

O’Brien 56 turnovers from 300 possession 18.7%
6.3 kicks - 5.6 handball

McInerney 23 turnovers from 124 possessions 18.5%
5.5 kicks - 4.1 handballs

Nankervis 62 turnovers from 349 possession 17.8%
7.9 kicks - 8.0 handballs

Stanley 32 turnovers from 180 possessions 17.8%
5.7 kicks - 4.3 handballs

Sweet 37 turnovers from 213 possessions 17.4%
4.8 kicks - 6.4 handballs

TDK 65 turnovers from 381 possessions, 17.1%
8.8 kicks - 8.2 handballs

Witts 50 turnovers from 306 possessions, 16.3%
Kicks 4.79 - Handballs 7.79

Luke Jackson 56 turnovers from 373 possessions, 15.0%
7.3 kicks - 10.5 handballs

Marshall 63 turnovers from 427 possessions, 15.0%
11.4 kicks - 7.2 handballs

Grundy 63 turnovers from 428 possessions, 14.7%
7.3 kicks - 12.2 handballs

Meek 49 turnovers from 338 possessions, 14.5%
5.2 kicks - 8.3 handballs

Gawn 69 turnovers from 477 Possessions, 14.5%
Kicks 10.3 kicks - 10.4 handballs

English 57 turnovers from 410 possessions 13.9%
10.1 kicks - 7.7 handballs

Cameron 61 turnovers 441 possession 13.8%
10.7 kicks - 6.9 handballs

Xerri 40 turnovers from 345 possessions 11.6%
6.1 kicks - 11.1 handballls.

Goldstein 21 turnovers from 192 possessions 10.9%
3.75 kicks - 8.2 handballs


So out of the top 20 ruckman this year Gawn has the 5th best turnover rate. He only has the most turnovers because he gets the most possession.

He also does kick the ball compared to the other top ruckman this year in Grundy and Xerri who play it safe hand balling the ball significantly more than they kick. Gawn has a better turnover rate than Grundy and that’s with Grundy playing it safe with handball.

Because Gawn does kick the ball he is much higher in metres gained, score involvements compared to the other top ruckman Grundy and Xerri.

Your total turnover stats are very misleading are not taken with context.

 

[danster168]

You right, Brownlow votes are a great indicator of who the best player is.

Improvements in sports science in the last 10-15 years extending careers by 3-4 years allowing for more opportunity to get career Brownlow votes like the other guy mentioned is rubbish.

Gawn's ability to take those famous contested marks around the ground and then turn the ball over or create a 50/ 50 ball is what always set him apart.

The Tom Mitchell of ruckmen is my GOAT

Also he's marketable which means he is better than Dean Cox

haha cry more. 8 time AA. the frickin goat. was he turning it over when he kicked 5 in a prelim. you should let the coaches know that he's no good so they don't change their whole game plan around Max Gawn.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Matty Lloyd is on team Cox.

I would still take prime Cox over prime Gawn, probably because i'm an Eagles fan, but Gawn's longevity is telling now. Cox. Dean Cox

Dean Cox

Age

44

Ht

203cm

Wt

107kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.9

4star

K

8.9

3star

HB

6.9

4star

M

5.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

13.0

4star

K

5.8

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.4

4star

G

0.0

1star

playing a third of his career with Nic Nat impacts on his total stats/AA's etc.,

Would have been good to see Gawn have a Nic Nat type come through 4 or 5 years ago and see what he could do up forward more. Imagine would have seen him kick 25 goals plus in a few seasons.

 

[Blackas87]

Matty Lloyd is on team Cox.

I would still take prime Cox over prime Gawn, probably because i'm an Eagles fan, but Gawn's longevity is telling now. Cox. Dean Cox playing a third of his career with Nic Nat impacts on his total stats/AA's etc.,

Would have been good to see Gawn have a Nic Nat type come through 4 or 5 years ago and see what he could do up forward more. Imagine would have seen him kick 25 goals plus in a few seasons.

View attachment 2437752

Gawn did have Luke Jackson come through and then a year with Grundy. I’m not sure Max would have kicked 25 plus though, especially in Melbournes dysfunctional forward line.

Cox was AA playing alongside Naitanui in 2011 and 2012. Naitanui though missed half the season in 2013 while Cox played every game but missed AA selection, although you can make the case Cox could have been in the team.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Gawn is also number 1 in the league out of ruckman for effective disposals, but you leave that out because it doesn’t suit your narrative.

Number 1 in turnovers because he has more possessions than other ruckman, only ruckman to average 20 possessions this year. More possessions you are more likely going to turn it over. Hence players like Tom Mitchel, Matt Rowell turn the ball over a lot.

I also completely disagree about every Gawn kicks it’s a 50% he turns it over. Gawn’s kicking I’d say is one of the better out of ruckman in the league today.

If you look at turnovers per possession Gawn is not number 1 out of ruckman, not even close.

Top 20 ruckman by total hitouts this year in order of their turnover rate.

Flynn 55 turnovers from 229 possessions 24.0%
6.7 kicks - 6.0 handballs

Darcy 35 turnovers from 167 possessions 20.9%
4.88 kicks - 4.9 handball

Fort 42 turnovers from 205 possessions 20.5%
6.1 kicks 4.2 handballs

Briggs 42 turnovers from 222 disposals, 18.9%
5.8 kicks, 5.3 handballs

O’Brien 56 turnovers from 300 possession 18.7%
6.3 kicks - 5.6 handball

McInerney 23 turnovers from 124 possessions 18.5%
5.5 kicks - 4.1 handballs

Nankervis 62 turnovers from 349 possession 17.8%
7.9 kicks - 8.0 handballs

Stanley 32 turnovers from 180 possessions 17.8%
5.7 kicks - 4.3 handballs

Sweet 37 turnovers from 213 possessions 17.4%
4.8 kicks - 6.4 handballs

TDK 65 turnovers from 381 possessions, 17.1%
8.8 kicks - 8.2 handballs

Witts 50 turnovers from 306 possessions, 16.3%
Kicks 4.79 - Handballs 7.79

Luke Jackson 56 turnovers from 373 possessions, 15.0%
7.3 kicks - 10.5 handballs

Marshall 63 turnovers from 427 possessions, 15.0%
11.4 kicks - 7.2 handballs

Grundy 63 turnovers from 428 possessions, 14.7%
7.3 kicks - 12.2 handballs

Meek 49 turnovers from 338 possessions, 14.5%
5.2 kicks - 8.3 handballs

Gawn 69 turnovers from 477 Possessions, 14.5%
Kicks 10.3 kicks - 10.4 handballs

English 57 turnovers from 410 possessions 13.9%
10.1 kicks - 7.7 handballs

Cameron 61 turnovers 441 possession 13.8%
10.7 kicks - 6.9 handballs

Xerri 40 turnovers from 345 possessions 11.6%
6.1 kicks - 11.1 handballls.

Goldstein 21 turnovers from 192 possessions 10.9%
3.75 kicks - 8.2 handballs


So out of the top 20 ruckman this year Gawn has the 5th best turnover rate. He only has the most turnovers because he gets the most possession.

He also does kick the ball compared to the other top ruckman this year in Grundy and Xerri who play it safe hand balling the ball significantly more than they kick. Gawn has a better turnover rate than Grundy and that’s with Grundy playing it safe with handball.

Because Gawn does kick the ball he is much higher in metres gained, score involvements compared to the other top ruckman Grundy and Xerri.

Your total turnover stats are very misleading are not taken with context.

He had 69 turnovers this year and 237 kicks, considering very few handballs would result in turnovers, he's averaging almost 1 turnover for every 3 kicks he takes.

I said he turns the ball over directly 1 in every 4 kicks he has, and another 1 in every 4 kicks results in a 50/ 50 ball (33% chance it goes to a teammate, 33% chance it goes to the opposition, 33% it's a drawn ball that goes to the umpire for a restart in play).

Chat GPT tells me this means I predicted he has a 33.25% chance of generating a turnover per kick in total, so I was on.

I don't care if he turns it over a little bit less than other ruckmen per kick they have.

As a ruckmen, all the kicks he takes are easy kicks, and yet he has diabolical turnovers galore.

What I am trying to say is that it's in any teams best interest to have their ruckmen kicking the ball as little as possible as they all have zero skill and turn the ball over when attempting basic kicks 1 in every 3 times.

Gawn might be "elite" in the context of ruckmen, but it's only because the standard is so low.

People are going to laugh in 50 years time when they see highlights of the supposed "great" Max Gawn who kicks the ball worse than people who have barely kicked a ball in their life.

He is not an elite player, only because ruckmen are so shit, is he able to make an All Australian team where he is so out of his depth standing next to the other players.

Ruckmen are terrible, they are all failed key-position players.

If you are actually good at football and 208cm, you are playing key-forward like Sam Darcy and winning games off your own foot every second week.

Instead, Max, like pretty much all the other ruckmen, have zero mobility, zero coordination, zero skill, and get put in a position where the only requirements are being 'big' and being able to run.

Dean Cox from what I can remember could actually use the ball well by foot, and had success when used as a deep forward target, something Max can't do with his embarrassing ability to routinely miss set shots 15 metres out directly in front.

 

[Blackas87]

He had 69 turnovers this year and 237 kicks, considering very few handballs would result in turnovers, he's averaging almost 1 turnover for every 3 kicks he takes.

I said he turns the ball over directly 1 in every 4 kicks he has, and another 1 in every 4 kicks results in a 50/ 50 ball (33% chance it goes to a teammate, 33% chance it goes to the opposition, 33% it's a drawn ball that goes to the umpire for a restart in play).

Chat GPT tells me this means I predicted he has a 33.25% chance of generating a turnover per kick in total, so I was on.

I don't care if he turns it over a little bit less than other ruckmen per kick they have.

As a ruckmen, all the kicks he takes are easy kicks, and yet he has diabolical turnovers galore.

What I am trying to say is that it's in any teams best interest to have their ruckmen kicking the ball as little as possible as they all have zero skill and turn the ball over when attempting basic kicks 1 in every 3 times.

Gawn might be "elite" in the context of ruckmen, but it's only because the standard is so low.

People are going to laugh in 50 years time when they see highlights of the supposed "great" Max Gawn who kicks the ball worse than people who have barely kicked a ball in their life.

He is not an elite player, only because ruckmen are so shit, is he able to make an All Australian team where he is so out of his depth standing next to the other players.

Ruckmen are terrible, they are all failed key-position players.

If you are actually good at football and 208cm, you are playing key-forward like Sam Darcy and winning games off your own foot every second week.

Instead, Max, like pretty much all the other ruckmen, have zero mobility, zero coordination, zero skill, and get put in a position where the only requirements are being 'big' and being able to run.

Dean Cox from what I can remember could actually use the ball well by foot, and had success when used as a deep forward target, something Max can't do with his embarrassing ability to routinely miss set shots 15 metres out directly in front.

Wow this such a poor take. This says more about your football knowledge than Max’s ability.

1st no one is saying Max is an elite kick, no one is saying he is a better kick than what Cox was. You’re having an argument when no one is arguing those points.

But if you think kicking is the only metric to judge a player by then you really lack the ability to analyse football.

Ask yourself, why did Max get 23 Brownlow votes this year? Brownlow votes are awarded to all players not just ruckman.

Ask yourself why did Max win the 2018 AFCA player of the year award? Not just an award for ruckman, Max beat every player playing every position.

Matt Rowell 119 turnovers, 308 kicks, 38.6% turnover rate per kick

Gawn 69 turnovers, 237 kicks, 29.1% turnover rate per kick.

What F is Matt Rowell doing? Considering very few handballs result in a turnover, nearly 40% in direct turnovers. This is not ever counting the 50/50’s. You can use chat GPT to work the rest out. Why doesn’t Rowell handball more?

Players have different abilities, saying Gawn is a failed forward is like saying Eddie Betts was a failed midfielder.

 

[Blackas87]

Ruckmen are terrible, they are all failed key-position players.

If you are actually good at football and 208cm, you are playing key-forward like Sam Darcy and winning games off your own foot every second week.

Instead, Max, like pretty much all the other ruckmen, have zero mobility, zero coordination, zero skill, and get put in a position where the only requirements are being 'big' and being able to run.

Dean Cox from what I can remember could actually use the ball well by foot, and had success when used as a deep forward target, something Max can't do with his embarrassing ability to routinely miss set shots 15 metres out directly in front.

Cox averages 0.58 goals a game compared to Max 0.47. Basically 0.1 goals a game difference.

Are you saying Dean Cox is a failed forward because he didn’t play like the way Sam Darcy does?

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Wow this such a poor take. This says more about your football knowledge than Max’s ability.

1st no one is saying Max is an elite kick, no one is saying he is a better kick than what Cox was. You’re having an argument when no one is arguing those points.

But if you think kicking is the only metric to judge a player by then you really lack the ability to analyse football.

Ask yourself, why did Max get 23 Brownlow votes this year? Brownlow votes are awarded to all players not just ruckman.

Ask yourself why did Max win the 2018 AFCA player of the year award? Not just an award for ruckman, Max beat every player playing every position.

Matt Rowell 119 turnovers, 308 kicks, 38.6% turnover rate per kick

Gawn 69 turnovers, 237 kicks, 29.1% turnover rate per kick.

What F is Matt Rowell? Considering very few handballs result in a turnover, nearly 40% in direct turnovers. This is not ever counting the 50/50’s. You can use chat GPT to work the rest out.

Players have different abilities, saying Gawn is a failed forward is like saying Eddie Betts was a failed midfielder.

Brownlow votes don't mean anything, for the second time.

Tom Mitchell won one, who like I said before was the Max Gawn of midfielders.

I don't know about the coaches award, maybe Goodwin was giving Gawn 5s every week.

Yeah Dean Cox is a failed forward, that's why he played in the ruck.

He wasn't athletic enough to be a key-position player, but he still had a lot more forward craft than Gawn.

He had two 20+ goal seasons in the 5 years he played with Naitanui when he spent more time playing deep forward.

Gawn was so bad as a forward that he got Grundy traded because he wasn't giving the Dees anything when he was resting down there when Grundy was playing

 

[Blackas87]

Brownlow votes don't mean anything, for the second time.

Tom Mitchell won one, who like I said before was the Max Gawn of midfielders.

Don’t forget turnover king Matt Rowell mr 38% kicks turnover also won a Brownlow.

I don't know about the coaches award, maybe Goodwin was giving Gawn 5s every week.

Yes I realise you don’t know. What about the 10 vote games?

Yeah Dean Cox is a failed forward, that's why he played in the ruck.

There you go, you also believe Cox isn’t that good of a player.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Don’t forget turnover king Matt Rowell mr 38% kicks turnover also won a Brownlow.

Yes I realise you don’t know. What about the 10 vote games?

There you go, you also believe Cox isn’t that good of a player.

Yeah Rowell is just another Ollie Wines, he's nothing special, Daicos was robbed.

Cox wasn't a good player per se, I already said that all ruckmen suck.

Good players don't play in the ruck.

If Cox was 10 cms shorter he would never have been in the AFL.

If play was restarted via a kick-off from the centre-line after a goal was scored like in NRL and there was a last-touch out of bounds rule (meaning no ruck contests ever), Cox would have played 75 games and have been completely forgotten about within 5 years of retiring.

Cox wasn't as bad as Gawn though, that's what I'm trying to say.

Gawn is a skill-less 208cm giant that apart from taking a few great contested marks each game, gets 20 meaningless touches each game like Tom Mitchell did

 

[Blackas87]

Yeah Rowell is just another Ollie Wines, he's nothing special, Daicos was robbed.

Daicos had more turnovers than Matt Rowell this year. Daicos turnover king was robbed?

Cox wasn't a good player per se, I already said that all ruckmen suck.

Good players don't play in the ruck.

If all ruckman suck, then why not just have shorter more skilled players contest for hitouts?

 

[Blackas87]

Yeah Rowell is just another Ollie Wines, he's nothing special, Daicos was robbed.

don’t forget the 2017 Brownlow medalist Dustin Martin led the league in turnovers. Shocking player.

 

[Blackas87]

If play was restarted via a kick-off from the centre-line after a goal was scored like in NRL and there was a last-touch out of bounds rule (meaning no ruck contests ever), Cox would have played 75 games and have been completely forgotten about within 5 years of retiring.

If scoring in AFL were running the ball over the line for a try like in NRL (meaning no goal kicking) Tony Lockett wouldn’t play 15 games.

 

[Trav 20]

Gawn is in the top 3 kicks for ruckmen. The stats bear this out.

He's in the top 3 for retention of his kicks among rucks and top 3 for the raw stats of kicks retained.

The poster who claims he's a turnover merchant wastes his time watching the game. He simply can't process what he thinks his eyes see.

 

[Trav 20]

End of season 2025 update:

Compare the pair:

Games: Gawn x 247 - Cox x 290

Gawn x 8 All Australian - Cox 6
Gawn x 3 B&Fs - Cox 1
Gawn x 1 AFLCA - Cox 0
Gawn x 592 Coaches Votes from 247 games (ave. 2.40) - Cox x 338 Coaches Votes from 273 games (ave. 1.23)
Gawn x 144 Brownlow Votes from 237 games (ave. 0.61) - Cox x 71 Brownlow Votes from 274 games (ave. 0.26) - Gawn 73 more from 37 less eligible games. In fact, Gawn is ahead by more votes than Cox ever managed.

Gawn averages more disposals (even without adjusting 2020 season stats)
Gawn averages more hitouts (x 10 ave - Gawn already more than 1,500 ahead)
Gawn averages more tackles
Gawn averages more clearances (totals - 917 to 813 ie 104 more from 43 less games)
Gawn averages more contested possessions (45% more)
Gawn averages more contested marks (totals - 511 to 246 ie a whopping 265 more from 43 less games)
Cox averages more general marks
Cox averages more goals (0.6 to 0.5)
Cox averages more goal assists

Gawn x 1 premiership
Cox x 1 premiership

Gawn has clearly been the more influential player on the outcome of games. This is recognised by Gawn smashing Cox in Brownlow votes, as well as coaches votes. Both ruckmen were athletic and Cox had the better skills.

Gawn has won the AFLCA, which is really a midfielders award. and he's finished top 20 x 6 times and top 5 twice.
Cox has never won it and finished top 20 just once (13th). The award started in 2003 which is 2 years after Cox started his career in 2001. Looking at the stats Cox wouldn't have troubled the voters of the award in his first 2 years had it been around, which is understandable for a 19/20 year old ruck.

Gawn has taken 4+ contested marks in a game 43 times (17.4%). Cox took 4+ contested marks in a game 7 times (2.4%). For today's current players Gawn has the most 4+ contested marks in a game with Tom Lynch second on 41. Gawn is 6th on the all time list (since records started) and will soon pass Jonathan Brown and Tom Hawkins

26

Tom Hawkins

Age

37

Ht

197cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.2

3star

K

7.9

3star

HB

4.4

3star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.9

4star

G

2.1

5star

D

12.7

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

4.1

3star

M

5.1

5star

T

2.1

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

7.8

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

4.2

4star

T

1.0

3star

G

2.2

5star

.

The most contested marks Cox took in a game was 6, which he did once. Gawn has taken 8 twice. Gawn has taken 6+ contested marks in a game six times.

Most goals in a game: Gawn x 5 (prelim final) - Cox x 5 (H&A)

It doesn't matter how you slice it or dice it Gawn has past Cox as this century's greatest ruckman.

 

[Ed_Gein]

Far too hard to pick.

You can nit-pick over stats and accolades all you want, but I think in the end, during their respective eras they've both been the best ruckman in the AFL for their time.

Used to dread coming up against Cox when us and the Eagles were at their best, and Gawn looks a cut above any other ruckman in today's game.

I voted Cox in the end, but it's a difficult call.

 

[schmuttt]

Gawn went past him two years ago but people still rate Cox higher due to nostalgia and Cox being a more aesthetically pleasing footballer.