Crows bring in two external fitness gurus

[icrow32]

Oh for god's sake Carl - you are being ridiculous. What if there were 22 things reviewed - would that make you happy?

They've identified mistakes (a lot by the sounds of things), and hopefully they are working towards rectifying them. What would you prefer them do - nothing? I guess you'd be happy then so you could keep on your incessant complaining.

How can this be? Our "coach" has a sports science degree which is supposed to be a benefit to us, afterall he is no good in the coaches box on match day or in selection committee meetings. It must be one of those degrees you get on line or fall out of a cornflakes pack.

Does NC have an competitive advantage at all now?

 

[Slippery Pete]

you dont think a golf shot is subject to the variables of wind, rain, temperature, lie of the ball, pressure of the moment, degree of difficulty of the shot?

wow...

1. You're hitting the ball off a tee.

2.
A drive is like a long kick out of defence. There's no realistic expectation you're going to get it in the hole. It's your opening shot.

Kicking for goal is more comparable to taking a putt then a drive off the tee- and golfers miss seemingly easy putts all the time.

 

[feenix67]

1. You're hitting the ball off a tee.

2.
You're mistaking the general skill of kicking with the skill of kicking for goals. Hitting 1000 golf balls is going to help you hit the ball off the tee perfectly every time - true. And the more you kick a footy, the better you will strike it - true again.

However, when you're trying to kick the ball between two sticks 6 metres apart, and the angle is different every time, the man on the mark is different, and the weight of the ball is different (depending on wet or dry weather), the result is going to be far more inconsistent and a lot less improvable by the old "practise makes perfect" adage.

ok i'll indulge you because you obviously dont play golf.

rarely are two shots in golf the same. only one shot per hole is hit off a tee. generally, a pro golfer does not want to hit the ball in a straight line. There are these things called obstacles on a golf course to navigate, like trees and bunkers. it gets windy and rainy on golf courses too. temperature affects the characteristics of a golf ball. if a pro misses a golf shot by 6 metres, he's usually hit a bad shot. when putting, the cup is roughly two times the width of the ball in diameter, a much smaller ratio than that of a football versus the distance between two goalposts.

 

[Slippery Pete]

ok i'll indulge you because you obviously dont play golf.

rarely are two shots in golf the same. only one shot per hole is hit off a tee. generally, a pro golfer does not want to hit the ball in a straight line. There are these things called obstacles on a golf course to navigate, like trees and bunkers. it gets windy and rainy on golf courses too. temperature affects the characteristics of a golf ball. if a pro misses a golf shot by 6 metres, he's usually hit a bad shot. when putting, the cup is roughly two times the width of the ball in diameter, a much smaller ratio than that of a football versus the distance between two goalposts.

AS above, wouldn't a putt be a more appropriate comparison to kicking for goal?

Surely a drive off the tee or the fairway is the equivalent to a field kick in football.

What's the percentages for a 20 foot putt, and have they improved over the last 20 years?

 

[feenix67]

AS above, wouldn't a putt be a more appropriate comparison to kicking for goal?

Surely a drive off the tee or the fairway is the equivalent to a field kick in football.

What's the percentages for a 20 foot putt, and have they improved over the last 20 years?

ok lets run with putting...

Variables:wind, slope, type of grass, distance to the hole.

I would suggest a typical missed Kurt Tippet shot - 30 metres out in front of goal - would be equivalent to a straight, slightly uphill, six foot putt. In my observation, a pro golfer would make that putt 9 times out of 10. but an average golfer would make that 6 - 7 times out of 10, and if there was a million dollars riding on it, probably 5 -6 times out of 10. The difference between the average and the pro golfer is...wait for it..... practice.

Of course, as the degree of difficulty increases, the success rate drops. However, it is fact to say that the success rate drops at a lower rate for the pro golfer than it does for the amateur. why? wait for it...... practice.

 

[Captain Harley]

Whatever Johncock does in the off season the rest should follow.
Probably our quickest and hardest running player.

What's that bud?

Get on the gas and pass out all over Port Lincoln?

 

[Slippery Pete]

ok lets run with putting...

Variables:wind, slope, type of grass, distance to the hole.

I would suggest a typical missed Kurt Tippet shot - 30 metres out in front of goal - would be equivalent to a straight, slightly uphill, six foot putt..

Here's where disagree. I reckon it's about equivalent to a 9-12 foot putt.

And the variables we've discussed get a much bigger look-in with the kick than they do the putt, due to the more complex biomechanics of kicking a ball. With kicking, variables dont just affect trajectory, they can effect the ball drop too.

Putting is really the kicking equivalent of a place kick, but not a drop punt at goal.

 

[Slippery Pete]

One other thing - the cup is round - it doesn't change despite the angle. You're putting in a straight line every time. It's like taking EVERY kick directly in front.

What about when the angle changes by 5 degrees, 10 degrees and so on..... the kick becomes more difficult because the goal face closes. You're not kicking it into a hole in the ground.

 

[Macjoe]

As I said earlier - the issue isn't whether goal-kicking across the whole of Australian Rules Football improves in the years ahead. That is another discussion.

What matters for us is how bad our players were this year compared to their peers. In fact, you could probably make an arguement: compared to players of any other team - SANFL, WAFL, VFL, TAC, even amateur leagues. I think you would have to search hard to find another team where ALL the goal-kickers averaged under 58%.

Of course there will be a skill ceiling, SP, but the Crows are so far under it, it is irrelevent. We need a goal-kicking coach, who has access (with the back-up of senior coaches authority if necessary) to player's training time in reasonable blocks.

I understand that what you practise is even more important than how long - that the sort of stuff a player does by himself - the dobbing lots of shots that we see in the warm-ups - is often not the best training. There were some rugby kicking coaches around a few years ago saying stuff like 5 repeats of a specific technique monitored and done correctly was better than dozens of dobs in the usual way.

Trained by the Goose, the Western Bulldogs 6 goal-kickers averaged a 70% accuracy rate.

If our 5 had reached an average 70% accuracy, instead of their woeful 55% average they would have kicked a total of 38 more goals. That's better than adding another Tex to the side.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

There was an excellent article in the Footy Record one week about goalkicking. It was about Fevola and the process he went through to improve his kicking to the point that he became one of the better kicks going around. Fev said that he was an average, unreliable kick early in his AFL career.

The first was to identify what he was doing wrong. Why was he being inconsistent? What was it about his technique that was causing an inconsistent ball drop?

He had his coach did this, went through all the footage and highlighted something to do with his grip and where he dropped the ball from. You might remember that he ended up with quite a unique grip of the football.

The second thing was to go out and kick the footy a heap of times over quite a few months with this new style to make sure it worked and also so that it became more natural.

The third thing was to compile a routine including run up, controlling breathing, distance back from the mark etc.

The fourth and final stage was to practice this routine again and again and again until you can reproduce it even under game pressure and different conditions.

Observing our goal kicking woes we seem to want to jump straight to step three: The Routine. We either don't have the coaching skills, the time or the want to go through the process properly. You cannot just bung a routine onto a guy who is a shit kick and expect him to suddenly execute better.

Kurt is now a shit kicker with a routine. Big whoop.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Observing our goal kicking woes we seem to want to jump straight to step three: The Routine. We either don't have the coaching skills, the time or the want to go through the process properly. You cannot just bung a routine onto a guy who is a shit kick and expect him to suddenly execute better.

Kurt is now a shit kicker with a routine. Big whoop.

Exactly. And this is the point about practise. Practise makes perfect, but imperfect practise makes imperfect. (or somethng like that....). most skilled footballers have parts 1, 2 and 3 covered by the time they get to AFL level. In fact really skilled footballers have it covered by the time they're 9 years old.

We've had a few players who have been sh*t kicks with a routine - Brett Burton anybody??

Kurt is a sh*t kick. Im not sure if anyone has ever addressed parts 1, 2 and 3, but I doubt it because he came to the game so late. Pretty hard to teach parts 1 2 and 3 when a guy is 23 years of age. Easier to teach him part 4, the routine. The problem with a routine is when you're a sh*t kick, the routine reminds you of all the shots you've missed.

 

[feenix67]

Here's where disagree. I reckon it's about equivalent to a 9-12 foot putt.

And the variables we've discussed get a much bigger look-in with the kick than they do the putt, due to the more complex biomechanics of kicking a ball. With kicking, variables dont just affect trajectory, they can effect the ball drop too.

Putting is really the kicking equivalent of a place kick, but not a drop punt at goal.

You're entirely missing the point. On purpose I suspect.

Goal kicking, like hitting (or putting) a golf ball, is a repeatable process.

Golfers spend 100's of hours practicing and it is an accepted fact that you can be the most naturally gifted golfer on the planet, but if you don't continuously practice, you wont be able to consistently hit the ball where you want it to go.

Tiger Woods circa 2010 is a perfect example of this.

Extending that line of thinking to goalkicking, it follows that footballers would be more consistently successful at goalkicking if they were to practice more, regardless of their natural ability.

That is the point I have been making to you about your theory that practice would not make any long term difference to goal kicking. Lets not make the art of goalkicking more difficult than it is.

1. Assess the conditions
2. Pick a line you want to kick the ball on
3. Kick it on the intended line.

Assuming you've assessed correctly in point 1 and 2, then the only thing you can control is point 3. If you practice, you will get point 3 right more often than not. It's that simple.

edit: and just on the bolded point, you've obviously never tried to make a 30 foot putt in a howling gale. Considering one of the keys to good putting is being still, stadning still and swinging truly in a big wind is almost impossible. I think you should stop trying to compare things on which you have little experience or knowledge.

 

[feenix67]

Exactly. And this is the point about practise. Practise makes perfect, but imperfect practise makes imperfect. (or somethng like that....). most skilled footballers have parts 1, 2 and 3 covered by the time they get to AFL level. In fact really skilled footballers have it covered by the time they're 9 years old.

We've had a few players who have been sh*t kicks with a routine - Brett Burton anybody??

Kurt is a sh*t kick. Im not sure if anyone has ever addressed parts 1, 2 and 3, but I doubt it because he came to the game so late. Pretty hard to teach parts 1 2 and 3 when a guy is 23 years of age. Easier to teach him part 4, the routine. Every time he marks that spot in the turf i shake my head. Not only does it remind me of the Birdman spraying shots everywhere, it just reminds me of a guy who's a sh*t kick and needs a dumb routine to help him.

And Im inclined to disagree with this too. There are plenty of examples of successful pro golfers who have very ordinary swings (in a text book sense). How can they possibly be successful? Because they are able to consistently bring the clubface back square to the target at impact. Set shot kicking is no different - it's about finding a successful technique and practicing enough to make it repeatable under pressure. There's that word again - practice.

 

[Slippery Pete]

That wasn't a bad post actually Feenix (for a Sturt supporter). You're assuming I'm completely ruling out the benefits of practising goalkicking. I'm not - I'm just saying the results of goalkicking practise aren't as quantifiable as the executions in many other sports where conversion rate is higher.

The Tiger Woods example is tenuous because Kurt Tippett is no Tiger Woods in his field. Part of my argument is that great exponents of a skill are that way because they are indeed, skillful - they became skillful with a combination of immense natural talent (Woods) and of course, practise (Woods again.)

Tippett is a poor kick. An established AFL player, who is a poor kick. He can practise all he wants, he'll still be a poor kick.

 

[Magma]

What's that bud?

Get on the gas and pass out all over Port Lincoln?

What's that bud?

Matty Stokes has more coke behind his couch?

Anyways, it's a good idea in all. There's a difference between getting them fit and AFL ready and taking it too far. Punishment brings with it injuries, so toning it down even by as little as 10% might still be an improvement.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

And Im inclined to disagree with this too. There are plenty of examples of successful pro golfers who have very ordinary swings (in a text book sense). How can they possibly be successful? Because they are able to consistently bring the clubface back square to the target at impact. Set shot kicking is no different - it's about finding a successful technique and practicing enough to make it repeatable under pressure. There's that word again - practice.

Not discounting the practice part, but the bolded bit is what we're missing. And it's why even after we spend weeks where goalkicking is a focus there is no improvement. We are building repetition on shaky foundations.

 

[feenix67]

That wasn't a bad post actually Feenix (for a Sturt supporter). You're assuming I'm completely ruling out the benefits of practising goalkicking. I'm not - I'm just saying the results of goalkicking practise aren't as quantifiable as the executions in many other sports where conversion rate is higher.

The Tiger Woods example is tenous because Kurt Tippett is no Tiger Woods in his field. Part of my argument is that great exponents of a skill are that way because they are indeed, skillfull - they became skillfull with a combination of immense natural talent (Woods) and of course, practise (Woods again.)

Tippett is a poor kick. An established AFL player, who is a poor kick. He can practise all he wants, he'll still be a poor kick.

Well Im certainly not suggesting that practice without coaching will get you the desired results. Even Tiger employs a full time coach. But coaching alone wont get results. Someone like Kurt needs to find a technique that works for him (which he has, because he can kick straight sometimes) and then practice to make that technique repeatable consistently.

My argument is that he has found a technique that works for him, but he doesnt practice enough to have confidence in that technique under pressure. The same with the Porps example. He clearly has a technique, but Im sure that his goalkicking has been less of a training focus for him over the past 12 months and, as a result, his consistency has fallen away.

Constant practice is the key missing ingredient.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Not discounting the practice part, but the bolded bit is what we're missing. And it's why even after we spend weeks where goalkicking is a focus there is no improvement. We are building repetition on shaky foundations.

And I'm arguing that once a guy is at Tippett's level and age, it's very difficult to change points 1, 2 and 3. Nearly impossible, actually.

I hate saying this word, it makes me shudder, but I'm forced to - Richo.

 

[feenix67]

Not discounting the practice part, but the bolded bit is what we're missing. And it's why even after we spend weeks where goalkicking is a focus there is no improvement. We are building repetition on shaky foundations.

Id argue he can kick perfectly fine when there's nothing on it and sometimes even when there's heaps on it (like last years semi). When he misses, its usually because he stabs at it, or because his ball drop is hesitant and therefore crooked. Thats a confidence issue, one that he wouldnt have if he had more faith in his technique. He would have this faith if he practiced more and honed his techinque.

 

[courageous_tom]

I'd personally like to see Tippett try and kick the ball 50m every time he has a shot at goal. That goes for shots that are from the goal square, 25m out, or further. He seems like a much more natural leg when he kicks through the ball properly. It's when he's in close and tries to stab at the ball that he runs into trouble.

So why not try and roost the ball into the crowd every time?

 

[feenix67]

I'd personally like to see Tippett try and kick the ball 50m every time he has a shot at goal. That goes for shots that are from the goal square, 25m out, or further. He seems like a much more natural leg when he kicks through the ball properly. It's when he's in close and tries to stab at the ball that he runs into trouble.

So why not try and roost the ball into the crowd every time?

agree 100%

 

[Slippery Pete]

Id argue he can kick perfectly fine when there's nothing on it and sometimes even when there's heaps on it (like last years semi). When he misses, its usually because he stabs at it, or because his ball drop is hesitant and therefore crooked. Thats a confidence issue, one that he wouldnt have if he had more faith in his technique. He would have this faith if he practiced more and honed his techinque.

It's a very un-coordinated action though. He's a great athlete who happens to have some unbelievable basketball skills that are interchangable in our game - like running, jumping and marking (you can tell he would have been an amazing rebounder).

Let's be honest though, his football ability is somewhat limited.

He can draw a free kick though. I'll give him that.

 

[Macjoe]

...
Tippett is a poor kick. An established AFL player, who is a poor kick. He can practise all he wants, he'll still be a poor kick.

Maybe, maybe not. There is a school of thought that motor skills like kicking are hard to change once established, which you obviously lean to (SP: "Pretty hard to teach ... when a guy is 23 years of age"). Even so, "hard" is not "impossible".

And there are different schools on just how hard it actually is. Your running debate about golf v kicking reminds me that the best way for a golfer to improve is to take a lesson. Despite bad ingrained habits, you learn things that help.

You can bet that professional footballers resist "kicking lessons", as distinct from "kicking practice" - "I know how to kick, i've just got the yips. Leave me alone and I will come good". Which is probably true, but ignores how much better they could be if they accepted that a specialist could actually teach them to kick better than ever before.

Notice what Fev (not known for his humility) asserted in the article Carl quoted - "that he was an average, unreliable kick early in his AFL career." That is, he was a footballer who had ingrained habits, but learned to kick better.

 

[feenix67]

Maybe, maybe not. There is a school of thought that motor skills like kicking are hard to change once established, which you obviously lean to (SP: "Pretty hard to teach ... when a guy is 23 years of age"). Even so, "hard" is not "impossible".

And there are different schools on just how hard it actually is. Your running debate about golf v kicking reminds me that the best way for a golfer to improve is to take a lesson. Despite bad ingrained habits, you learn things that help.

You can bet that professional footballers resist "kicking lessons", as distinct from "kicking practice" - "I know how to kick, i've just got the yips. Leave me alone and I will come good". Which is probably true, but ignores how much better they could be if they accepted that a specialist could actually teach them to kick better than ever before.

Notice what Fev (not known for his humility) asserted in the article Carl quoted - "that he was an average, unreliable kick early in his AFL career." That is, he was a footballer who had ingrained habits, but learned to kick better.

Bingo.

Interestingly, "yips" is a golfing term, describing the affliction which affects the ability of a golfer to make a putt from short distances. Those with the yips report that their hands sometimes physically shake at a 2 footer to the extent where gripping the putter becomes a challenge.

The yips is entirely mental. Golfers will go to any lengths to rid themselves of it. Famously, the broomstick putter has saved the careers of many golfer afflicted with the yips, because it makes the hands more passive in the putting stroke. Bernhard Langer is probably the most famous sufferer of the yips, and he's tried everything short of standing on his head while putting to rid himself of it. I daresay he has even tried the headstand technique in desperation in some dark moment.

The point is, the yips is mental. Missing a goal from 30 meters out straight in front is mental. Practicing and ingraining a working technique will rid 90% of golfers of the yips. I daresay the same for footballers. The rest can become defenders

 

[Slippery Pete]

The point is, the yips is mental. Missing a goal from 30 meters out straight in front is mental. Practicing and ingraining a working technique will rid 90% of golfers of the yips. I daresay the same for footballers. The rest can become defenders

Agree, but for the sake of this thread, are there degrees of yips??

Darren Jarman would need to get an extraordinary case of the yips to miss a goal from 20m out directly in front.

For Kurt Tippett on the other hand, it may only take a minor attack of nerves to completely break down his (poor) technique and miss a shot like that.

Usually the better your technique is, the higher its resistance to the yips.

This actually takes the debate into a new realm too - as to whether or not great players actually "feel" the pressure as much as mediocre players. Some studies have shown they don't.