Resource Crows Game Style & Team LIst

[GrommoT]

Now that the post season is on us, it's a good time to look a some of the intricacies of the game. I've been trying to understand the difference between inside- and outside- midfielders, but that is really part of a bigger picture.


CROWS GAME STYLE

This thread and the initial posts are for looking at aspects of the game (with a particular Adelaide Crows' point of view) such as:
. . * the role and requirements of the modern footballer
. . * the composition of the club's playing list
. . * game style (tactics and strategies)
and other related topics.

I personally have somewhat of a moderate, patchy understanding of the finer aspects of AFL and keen to improve. There have been many posts on the Crows BF board that I've found illuminating but they tend to be widely spread and easy to forget so much of what I put here is a based on those posts, that I have been collecting.

I plan to add to the topics, make improvements and corrections from any suggestions received and subsequent discussions here and wherever elsewhere - hopefully arriving at something that would be useful to anyone similarly wanting to increase their understanding of the game.

 

[GrommoT]

Updates
20171115 - added some observations about the "Double Wing" sentre bounce setup in the game style post.

CONTENTS
* CROWS GAME STYLE
* INSIDE & OUTSIDE MIDFIELDERS
* TEAM LIST BALANCE



Possible related things to look at later:
* Crows' previous game style (?)
* Other club's game styles
* Strategies/tactics
* Player types and roles
* Where/how TPP should be spent

 

[GrommoT]

TRADITIONAL GAME STYLE

The traditional game style with most players on the field more or less staying at set positions with a few players like the rucks and rovers being more mobile all over the field is pretty well described by the Australian rules football positions Wiki page and was probably generally employed until the early 2000s.

CROWS' GAME STYLE

In today's game all players on the field are generally very mobile while still maintaining some sort of structure.

Being generally mostly interested in the Crows, their game style has much in common with most teams IMO and a good start to describing the modern game style.

Mobile Structure
The Crows seem to employ a generally "mobile structure".

Whenever there is a stoppage anywhere on the ground, players try to set themselves up relatively according to the traditional positions but in a smaller compressed area so that all players are within a kick's distance from the stoppage area.

If there is a stoppage near our back goal square, then our forwards will drift down to somewhere between the half-back and centre lines, whereas if the stoppage is near our foward goal square, then our defenders will drift up to somewhere between the centre and half-forward lines.

Stoppage Contest
In the immediate vicinity of the stoppage, the ruck going up to contest for the ball will try to bring the ball down to one of our usual two inside-mid players in the stoppage area. The inside-mid getting the ball then either tries to kick to advantage or, if under pressure from opposition players, handball to another player to then move the ball on.

Marking Contest
Often when a Crows player with the ball in a kick-in or after a mark is held up from quickly playing on, our midfielders will try to quickly run forward to make position a kick's distance ahead around our ruck or another tall marking players and create a similar setup as a stoppage contest. If our ruck or tall going up for the mark is unable to mark, they will try to bring the ball down to our inside-mids in the marking area to carry on as per a stoppage contest.

Refs: [Squiba] [GrommoT]

Centre Bounce Setup - Traditional & Double Wing
I started looking at the 2017 R20 game vs Port to see if there was anything interesting in regards to the centre bounce contest and noticed that the Crows started the centre bounces at the start of quarters and after goals invariably using one of two setups:
.. * Traditional - with a single winger outside the square, in line with the centre circle; and
.. * Double Wing - for lack of a better name that I know of, where before the ball is bounced, the traditional wingers are shifted back towards the defensive end a bit and the HF flankers are also situated outside the centre square, the images below will show this better.

Noticing this for the first time, each centre bounce in the game vs Port was looked at closely and the Crows used the Double Wing setup all the way until midway through Q3, after which they switched to the Traditional setup for the rest of the game (Crows were about 40 points ahead fairly soon after the start of Q3).

The first three figures below show the Crows' Double Wing setup in the first three centre bounces of the game, and the last two shows the Traditional setup later on. In every figure, Crows are kicking left to right.
[click to enlarge]

The fourth figure above shows what the players outside the square do when the umpire bounces the ball - they basically run in towards the centre circle and then proceed depending on the outcome to the ruck tap contest to our inside-mid.

Also, in just about every centre bounce, Smith positions himself at CHB and runs forward as the ball is bounced (have also seen Seedsman do this).

Then wondering when else the Crows might have used the Double Wing centre bounce setup, other matches in 2017:
- R3 v.Por NO
- R11 v.Gee NO
- R16 v.WBD NO
- R17 v.Mel YES for first half
- R18 v.Gee NO
- R19 v.Coll - BOTH
- R20 v.Por Yes to mid-Q3
- R21 v.Ess YES
- PF v.Gee YES! Was Pyke saving this for Gee in the PF?

R19 v.Coll
Crows started Q1 with Traditional setup, then switched to Double Wing from midway of Q1 to mid Q2, where they then switched back and forth between the two setups. Then started Q3 with Traditional setup until end of the game. When Crows used the Double Wing setup, Collingwood didn't bother matching up and just stuck to the traditional single winger on each side of the square.

R21 v.Ess
Crows started both Q1 and Q2 with the Double Wing setup (Ess ignored this and went with their wingers in the Traditional setup) then switched to Traditional for last few minutes of both quarters.

Why a Double Wing setup?
Maybe it helps with the swarming tactics to create that forward rushing attack?
It looks like a fast way to get two extra players into the centre area and the incoming players have a good view of the way play is unfolding and could easily change direction left or right (not backwards).

... I'm not really sure what this was designed to do? My thinking is that maybe we were really trying to hem Port in and stop their spread from the centre square as they really like to shuffle the ball around a lot before putting that kick into the 50. But Port were being completely outplayed on the inside at all stages of the game and rarely go to do what they wanted, so it was hard to see if this new found 'pincer' sort of tactic if you would call it that was actually working? ... [azza77]
Yep, we did this nearly every centre bounce. We had 4 guys on the wing/edge of the square every bounce. 2 attacking, 2 defensive. Essendon's 2/3 loose players were playing in our forward 50. [earlsta]
Hmmmm, very interesting. I was always so frustrated at us forever having 5 forwards and seeming to always kick to their loose man. Now we have 4 due to this tactic! Interesting little mix up from Pyke there ... [azza77]

​

Outside mids /wingers
Except for centre bounces we played either a 6/6/6 or a 6/7/5 formation. What confuses some is the fact that our outside mids/wingmen play in a more defensive formation than most other teams. If there is a stoppage in our D50 our wingmen must be between the stoppage and the opposition goal.How often did a ball come out of the stoppage towards the opposition goal and Atkins or Mackay intercepted the ball? This doesn’t mean that Atkins and Mackay were playing in defence ... [Jack is Back]

Attacking Half Back
Brodie Smith's run and drive off of halfback is critical to our game plan and there are no obvious natural replacements in the side, with the likes of Seedsman, Mackay, Atkins etc more suited to the wing than defensive positions. ... [James_37]
... having a half back who can set up the play and provide drive from defensive is a cornerstone of every game plan, like ever... The key game plan at the AFL at present is to essentially lock the ball in your attacking 50 with manic pressure and rely that the score will eventually come.
... [Smith] our best user of the footy out of the backline ... One of the big reasons we failed [in GF] is that we were unable to effectively work the ball out of defence ... [James_37]


OTHER CLUBS' GAME STYLES

Big Footy Threads
Threads on other BigFooty boards discussing game styles (to explore by those interested) include:

Ess: [1] ... Geel: [1] [2] ... Haw: [1] [2] ... North: [1] [2] ... Port: [1] ... Rich: [1] [2] ... StK: [1] ... WCE: [1] ... Misc: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

Spoiler: .. pixes ..

 

[GrommoT]

INSIDE & OUTSIDE MIDFIELDERS

These terms can be a source of confusion as to what they refer to.

They refer to the players who generally move all over the ground like the traditional rover, ruck-rover, centre and winger but not including the ruck player.

The difference between an inside-mid and an outside-mid is mainly determined by their roles at contested stoppages.

Inside-Mid
An inside-mid will usually be the one or two players that the ruck player will try to tap the ball to in a stoppage contest whether at the centre at the start of play or around the ground.

It can even be in a marking contest where there has been enough time for the ruck or other tall players to position themselves at the fall of the ball from a kick elsewhere on the ground.

The inside-mid will often have to dive into a pack to win the ball and then run away with the ball or if under pressure from the opposition, handball to another player to move the ball on.

For this reason, an inside-mid needs to be a tough, strong and skillful player.

Outside-Mid
An outside-mid on the other hand, at stoppages will sit on the periphery looking for loose ball [Squiba] often from the inside-mid.

The outside-mid's job is to then run away with the ball or kick to move it on. For this reason, an outside-mid needs to be a speedy, elusive and skillful player.

Of course there are times when an outside-mid also needs to go in and contest for the hard ball when situations demand it but that is not their main role. ... our designated outside receivers have been instructed not to get sucked into the contest. For fans used to our Sando playbook this is confusing and disconcerting and often mis-labeled a failure to "win their own ball". Remember when we all used to get sucked into the contest and the oppo would keep their receivers free on the outside to, you know, receive, and they would cut us up [mattymac]

There are also players who are considered both inside and outside mids - hybrid-mids - who are capable of playing both roles well (eg. Sloane).

Crows Midfielders
In the 2017 season, the Crows seem to usually have two inside-mids at stoppages with Matt Crouch being the inside-mid of choice and partnered with other inside-mids such as brother Brad, Douglas, Greenwood and Sloane, all relieving each other off the bench.

Players such as Atkins, Mackay, Milera, Seedsman, Hampton have generally played as the outside-mids.

Spoiler: ... QUOTES: Jack is Back ...

I think the modern terminology is pretty straightforward.

Inside mids can be found
1) In the centre square when the ball is bounced.
2) In the "drop zone" for stoppages around the ground.

Outside mids can be found
1) On the wing. Depending on the team they will be on the wing at centre clearances or (for teams like us) on the defensive side of the centre square.
2) Defensive side of the stoppages around the ground, usually outside the "drop zone".

In a perfect world, teams would have only hybrid mids who are capable of performing at a high level as both an inside mid and an outside mid. Sloaney is a fantastic hybrid mid, Dougie is a good hybrid mid, Brad Crouch should be elite both inside and outside but has often struggled when playing as an outside mid. Matty Crouch is close to the best inside mid in the business but could not be played as an outside mid (which requires at least average pace).

IMHO teams have moved from loading up with big arsed inside mids (worked quite well for Sydney at their best) and are looking to use fewer pure inside mids. THE MAESTRO has only used one pure inside mid this year. Our other mids have good pace (Brad, Sloaney, Dougie, TMT and Hampton).

I believe that we will take the chance of missing the next Sam Mitchell and draft hybrid mids. We took a similar approach last year when we drafted Gallucci.

 

[GrommoT]

TEAM LIST BALANCE

What type of players (and how many) make for a good balanced team for the first 22 on match day? What type of players and how many does a club need as depth and developmental players?

Gameday First 22
What the opposition team is like and the effects of injury will obviously have some bearing on what players are selected in the seniors 22 on gameday but looking at the selections through the 2017 season, what seems to be the preferred first 22?

With the selection of the more set positions like forwards and defenders being relatively straight forward, the more interesting question for me is how many midfielders (besides the ruck player) needs to be in the gameday 22 for a good balance.

Looking at a few matches starting with the Grand Final and going back, who were the inside-mids (IM), outside mids (OM) and hybrid mids (HM) selected on gameday?

GF:- IM/HM: MC, RD, HG, BC, RS ... OM: DM, BS, RA
PF:- IM/HM: MC, RD, HG, BC, RS ... OM: DM, RA, Seed
QF:- IM/HM: MC, RD, HG, BC, RS ... OM: BS, RA
R23:- [ignore this game]
R22:- IM/HM: MC, RD, HG, BC, RS ... OM: DM, BS, RA
R21:- IM/HM: MC, RD, HG, BC, RS ... OM: BS, RA

The preference seem to be to select about four inside-mids from MCrouch, Douglas, Greenwood, BCrouch & Sloane (the last two being hybrid-mids) and two or three outside-mids from Mackay, Atkins and Smith.

So of the 22, the Crows seem to prefer to select six or seven midfielders (not counting the ruck).

Of the four inside-mids, there are always two at stoppages rotating with the other two who are either resting on the interchange bench or parked in a HF flank.

So the preferred composition of the gameday 22 during 2017 seems to be:

.... RM: 1 - Jacobs
IM/HM: 5 - MCrouch, Douglas, Greenwd, BCrouch, Sloane
.... OM: 3 - Mackay, Smith, Atkins
... KPD: 2 - Talia, Hartign
MD/SD: 4 - Laird, Brown, Kelly, Lever
.... KPF: 2 - Walker, Jenkins
MF/SM: 4 - McGovn, Lynch, Betts, Cameron
..... UT: 1 - Knight

Alternate / Developmental Players
Taking a simple approach of doubling each player type in the gameday 22 composition to estimate what the entire list needs to be - and allowing for player movements in/out - who are the players the club has as alternates/developmentals for the above list of players?

.... RM: 2(1) - O'Brien, Hunter
IM/HM: 3(5) - Gibbs, Hampton, Poholke
.... OM: 6(3) - Gibson, Seedsmn, Milera, CEY, Sigrlo, Smith(Inj)
... KPD: 1(2) - Keath
MD/SD: 2(4) - Cheney, Doedee
.... KPF: 2(2) - Dear, Himmelbg
MF/SM: 2(4) - Galluci, Jarman(R)
..... UT: 2(1) - Otten, Davis

The above seems to indicates the Crows could maybe do with more inside-/hybrid-mids, defenders of any size, perhaps a key position forward as Dear hasn't exactly progressed much to date - ie. any type other than outside-mids.

Will the Crows choose players in the upcoming 2017 draft to address these possible shortcomings?


Crows Team List
Interesting post by OutofTownCrow comparing our team list with Richmond's based on drafting.

...
I think the addition of Gibson was telling, we added a gut running, outside accumulator who is tough as guts and can tag. He may not have the skills of the others, but when the shit hits the fan, you can have no doubt he'll be busting his gut, down in the trenches trying to clean it all up. You could not say that about any of our other outside mids, when the going gets tough, they go missing.

Gibsons been drafted to put a rocket under them and get them to pull their fingers out.

The addition of Gibbs has a similar effect. We're not dropping one of Crouch x2, Sloane or Greenwood for him, Douglas is unlikely to drop out either. Whilst Gibbs will play a fair amount of inside mid, he'll take the spot of an outside mid and one of the outside mid roles will be filled by a Gibbs, Sloane and B. Crouch rotation, +/- Douglas.

For mine there will be 3 genuine outside mid spots. One will go to Atkins to start with, for mine he was clearly our best performed outside mid across the year. The second goes to Seedsman as he has the most weapons, especially for our game plan. The 3rd is a raffle and at present I think Gibson will win.

We're going to want to make a few examples from the Grand Final loss, at present I think Otten, Mackay and Knight are the most likely, although I think Seedsman may also be on the chopping block, especially if Hampton can get himself fit. The coaching staff showed they had plenty of faith in Hampton prior to injury, whilst he probably isn't the inside mid they wanted, he's got plenty of weapons on the outside, but isn't reliant on plenty of space and can relieve on he inside if required.

The big talk at the beginning of 2017 from the coaching staff was having 8-10+ blokes capable of running through the midfield. Unfortunately we missed Gibbs at trade week, Cameron's engine was never sufficient, Hampton went down early with injury and the likes of Atkins, Milera, Mackay and Knight were never comfortable in that inside role. We very quickly became a team of 5 inside mids, with wingers and flankers. Fast forward to 2018, we now add Gibbs and Gibson, possibly a Gallucci or Hampton in Cameron's spot, Douglas potentially pushed to half back in Smiths role, Greenwood with another preseason behind him and that's changed a lot.

 

[GrommoT]

 

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[GreyCrow]

 

[John Who]

I like your efforts Grommo, kudos points!
I just want to say that game styles are a constant evolution. Every year will be different with slight/major modifications depending on how well the team has played in the previous year, and whether there are key personnel changes in the players (due to retirements/injuries).

Due to the game being now based on two way running and setting up zones to put more pressure on the ball carrier, the emphasis now is for EVERY player to know when to attack and when to defend. Traditional roles such as pure defender/forward are slowly becoming extinct, and the purist inside-mid and outside-mid is slowly becoming more of "a mid who can do both roles".

 

[Thegibbsgamble]

Football is almost becoming American football like Without the offside.

Bunch of brutes and skill specific players at stoppages and the rest defense or offense.

 

[GrommoT]

Due to the game being now based on two way running and setting up zones to put more pressure on the ball carrier, the emphasis now is for EVERY player to know when to attack and when to defend.

This probably explains why Mackay is selected so often through last season. Despite the many instances where he is frustrating to us watchers, he knows the system very well, much better than our youth who many of us wanted to see get given opportunities at the top level so with the Club trying to win every game, he got the nod.

Traditional roles such as pure defender/forward are slowly becoming extinct, and the purist inside-mid and outside-mid is slowly becoming more of "a mid who can do both roles".

Ideally we would have as many of those hybrid mids as possible (the Dusty's, PDs, Sloanes) but reality is players are generally better at one role or the other.

 

[GrommoT]

Football is almost becoming American football like Without the offside.
Bunch of brutes and skill specific players at stoppages and the rest defense or offense.

Our game will always be more beautiful to watch.

 

[GrommoT]

 

[dogs105]

Football is almost becoming American football like Without the offside.

Bunch of brutes and skill specific players at stoppages and the rest defense or offense.

With less helmets. And throwing. And stopping. And place kicks. And time outs. And reserve players.

 

[Pea Nut]

Gibbs as depth ?? Have you not watched him play before ???

 

[GrommoT]

Gibbs as depth ?? Have you not watched him play before ???

Gibbs slots straight into our gameday 22 of course - that post is more for extending the composition of the 2017 preferred gameday 22 to what perhaps the entire list ought to be and seeing who's left from the current list (plus add ins) outside of the preferred selections and what positions they slot into. I'll use alternate instead of depth for that post.

 

[footy4ever]

Gibbs as depth ?? Have you not watched him play before ???

Yep Gibbs is a massive talent and will be as pivotal to us as B Smith, who I saw as being our equally most important player. Gibbs is arguably as accomplished as any other player in the AFL and I can't wait to see him red blue and gold.