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Universal Love David Teague

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blue healer said:
Which older guys did Teague bring into the team when he took over?
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This is a narrative that I find frustrating. If there was changes "after Teague took over" then it would happen in the aftermath. People constantly cite this as "Teague played for wins so dumped the kids"

Here are our changes from our eleventh game (Bolton's last game as coach) through the remainder of the 2019 season (Teague's coaching).


R12 Stocker (inj), Lang (inj), Kennedy (o), Fasolo (o) for Simpson, Thomas, McGovern, O’Brien

Of the kids Stocker was injured. Kennedy was omitted. In came O'Brien.

R13 Silvagni (o) for Murphy

An argument can be made here. Jack dropped for a week.

R15 Cripps (inj), McKay (inj), Cuningham (inj) for Silvagni, Kennedy, Jones

All three outs are due to injury. Back into the side are "kids" Silvagni and Kennedy.

R16 Charlie Curnow (inj) for Lang

Only change here is an injury.

R17 McGovern (man), Weitering (inj), Marchbank (inj) for Cripps, McKay, Goddard

All three outs are injuries. In came young McKay and first Carlton gamer Goddard.

R18 Dow (inj), Goddard (inj) for DeLuca, Weitering

Dow out through injury. In came first Carlton gamer DeLuca and young Weiters following his injury return.

R19 Kreuzer (man), Fisher (inj) for Phillips, Dow

Kreuzer managed, Fisher injured. In comes young Dow.

R20 Jones (personal), Thomas (inj), Dow (omit) for Fisher, Goddard, Schumacher

Dow omitted but in comes young Zac Fisher, Schumacher. Goddard like-for-like swap with Jones (I think this was when a family member passed away).

R21 Goddard, Schumacher, Kennedy, Phillips for Jones, McGovern, Kreuzer, Thomas

Four veterans return but Kennedy had his chances and failed to convert and Schumacher was done.

R22 Jones (inj), Weitering (inj) for Dow, Kennedy

Out go two injuries with youngsters Dow and Kennedy taking their place.

R23 Gibbons (inj), Lang (inj) for Cuningham, Weitering

Two injuries out with youngsters replacing them (returning Weiters for r23).

Conclusion

The narrative is a fallacy. Aside from Jack Silvagni who missed one week going out for a returning Marc Murphy and round 21 where we had a slew of injury returns there's just no evidence that Teague dropped kids for veterans to win games.

Note: R14 was our bye round.
 
Wickzki said:
This is a narrative that I find frustrating. If there was changes "after Teague took over" then it would happen in the aftermath. People constantly cite this as "Teague played for wins so dumped the kids"

Here are our changes from our eleventh game (Bolton's last game as coach) through the remainder of the 2019 season (Teague's coaching).


R12 Stocker (inj), Lang (inj), Kennedy (o), Fasolo (o) for Simpson, Thomas, McGovern, O’Brien

Of the kids Stocker was injured. Kennedy was omitted. In came O'Brien.

R13 Silvagni (o) for Murphy

An argument can be made here. Jack dropped for a week.

R15 Cripps (inj), McKay (inj), Cuningham (inj) for Silvagni, Kennedy, Jones

All three outs are due to injury. Back into the side are "kids" Silvagni and Kennedy.

R16 Charlie Curnow (inj) for Lang

Only change here is an injury.

R17 McGovern (man), Weitering (inj), Marchbank (inj) for Cripps, McKay, Goddard

All three outs are injuries. In came young McKay and first Carlton gamer Goddard.

R18 Dow (inj), Goddard (inj) for DeLuca, Weitering

Dow out through injury. In came first Carlton gamer DeLuca and young Weiters following his injury return.

R19 Kreuzer (man), Fisher (inj) for Phillips, Dow

Kreuzer managed, Fisher injured. In comes young Dow.

R20 Jones (personal), Thomas (inj), Dow (omit) for Fisher, Goddard, Schumacher

Dow omitted but in comes young Zac Fisher, Schumacher. Goddard like-for-like swap with Jones (I think this was when a family member passed away).

R21 Goddard, Schumacher, Kennedy, Phillips for Jones, McGovern, Kreuzer, Thomas

Four veterans return but Kennedy had his chances and failed to convert and Schumacher was done.

R22 Jones (inj), Weitering (inj) for Dow, Kennedy

Out go two injuries with youngsters Dow and Kennedy taking their place.

R23 Gibbons (inj), Lang (inj) for Cuningham, Weitering

Two injuries out with youngsters replacing them (returning Weiters for r23).

Conclusion

The narrative is a fallacy. Aside from Jack Silvagni who missed one week going out for a returning Marc Murphy and round 21 where we had a slew of injury returns there's just no evidence that Teague dropped kids for veterans to win games.

Note: R14 was our bye round.
Click to expand...
The only thing Teague did was move players into their best positions, like Ed out of the forward pocket and back into the guts. 2hich is interesting really as its one of the biggest criticisms this season, that players haven't been played in their best positions.

Oh the other thing he did was stopped the 'endure' bullshit. Playing injured and down on confident players to teach them to 'endure' is what killed Bolton and almost the young team. Understand what bolts Wass angling for but went way too far.
 
Wickzki said:
This is a narrative that I find frustrating. If there was changes "after Teague took over" then it would happen in the aftermath. People constantly cite this as "Teague played for wins so dumped the kids"

Here are our changes from our eleventh game (Bolton's last game as coach) through the remainder of the 2019 season (Teague's coaching).


R12 Stocker (inj), Lang (inj), Kennedy (o), Fasolo (o) for Simpson, Thomas, McGovern, O’Brien

Of the kids Stocker was injured. Kennedy was omitted. In came O'Brien.

R13 Silvagni (o) for Murphy

An argument can be made here. Jack dropped for a week.

R15 Cripps (inj), McKay (inj), Cuningham (inj) for Silvagni, Kennedy, Jones

All three outs are due to injury. Back into the side are "kids" Silvagni and Kennedy.

R16 Charlie Curnow (inj) for Lang

Only change here is an injury.

R17 McGovern (man), Weitering (inj), Marchbank (inj) for Cripps, McKay, Goddard

All three outs are injuries. In came young McKay and first Carlton gamer Goddard.

R18 Dow (inj), Goddard (inj) for DeLuca, Weitering

Dow out through injury. In came first Carlton gamer DeLuca and young Weiters following his injury return.

R19 Kreuzer (man), Fisher (inj) for Phillips, Dow

Kreuzer managed, Fisher injured. In comes young Dow.

R20 Jones (personal), Thomas (inj), Dow (omit) for Fisher, Goddard, Schumacher

Dow omitted but in comes young Zac Fisher, Schumacher. Goddard like-for-like swap with Jones (I think this was when a family member passed away).

R21 Goddard, Schumacher, Kennedy, Phillips for Jones, McGovern, Kreuzer, Thomas

Four veterans return but Kennedy had his chances and failed to convert and Schumacher was done.

R22 Jones (inj), Weitering (inj) for Dow, Kennedy

Out go two injuries with youngsters Dow and Kennedy taking their place.

R23 Gibbons (inj), Lang (inj) for Cuningham, Weitering

Two injuries out with youngsters replacing them (returning Weiters for r23).

Conclusion

The narrative is a fallacy. Aside from Jack Silvagni who missed one week going out for a returning Marc Murphy and round 21 where we had a slew of injury returns there's just no evidence that Teague dropped kids for veterans to win games.

Note: R14 was our bye round.
Click to expand...

Spot on.

Teague's problem in relation to kids has been 2020/21, not when he took over and went 6-5.
 

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Stamos said:
Teague's problem in relation to kids has been 2020/21, not when he took over and went 6-5.
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I think this is a case of people wanting to have their cake and eating it too.

A lot of our younger players have either had injuries (almost all of them) or haven't been mentally prepared for the rigors of AFL football (e.g. Stocker was granted leave from the hub last year). This is what has prevented a lot of them from getting opportunity.

By and large, I argue that the selection committee has selected players based on merit.

If you smash the door down in the VFL you've been awarded with selection in the seniors (e.g. Liam Stocker).

I'd like examples of players who should be selected for the senior team but who have been overlooked. On what evidence should they be selected? I assure you that we can point to more young players who have been awarded opportunity than those who have not.

As an aside, we all want to see Honey rewarded with an opportunity but I have confidence that if he keeps knocking the door down he'll get it.
 
Wickzki said:
This is a narrative that I find frustrating. If there was changes "after Teague took over" then it would happen in the aftermath. People constantly cite this as "Teague played for wins so dumped the kids"

Here are our changes from our eleventh game (Bolton's last game as coach) through the remainder of the 2019 season (Teague's coaching).


R12 Stocker (inj), Lang (inj), Kennedy (o), Fasolo (o) for Simpson, Thomas, McGovern, O’Brien

Of the kids Stocker was injured. Kennedy was omitted. In came O'Brien.

R13 Silvagni (o) for Murphy

An argument can be made here. Jack dropped for a week.

R15 Cripps (inj), McKay (inj), Cuningham (inj) for Silvagni, Kennedy, Jones

All three outs are due to injury. Back into the side are "kids" Silvagni and Kennedy.

R16 Charlie Curnow (inj) for Lang

Only change here is an injury.

R17 McGovern (man), Weitering (inj), Marchbank (inj) for Cripps, McKay, Goddard

All three outs are injuries. In came young McKay and first Carlton gamer Goddard.

R18 Dow (inj), Goddard (inj) for DeLuca, Weitering

Dow out through injury. In came first Carlton gamer DeLuca and young Weiters following his injury return.

R19 Kreuzer (man), Fisher (inj) for Phillips, Dow

Kreuzer managed, Fisher injured. In comes young Dow.

R20 Jones (personal), Thomas (inj), Dow (omit) for Fisher, Goddard, Schumacher

Dow omitted but in comes young Zac Fisher, Schumacher. Goddard like-for-like swap with Jones (I think this was when a family member passed away).

R21 Goddard, Schumacher, Kennedy, Phillips for Jones, McGovern, Kreuzer, Thomas

Four veterans return but Kennedy had his chances and failed to convert and Schumacher was done.

R22 Jones (inj), Weitering (inj) for Dow, Kennedy

Out go two injuries with youngsters Dow and Kennedy taking their place.

R23 Gibbons (inj), Lang (inj) for Cuningham, Weitering

Two injuries out with youngsters replacing them (returning Weiters for r23).

Conclusion

The narrative is a fallacy. Aside from Jack Silvagni who missed one week going out for a returning Marc Murphy and round 21 where we had a slew of injury returns there's just no evidence that Teague dropped kids for veterans to win games.

Note: R14 was our bye round.
Click to expand...

God I love it when some peanut throws out vague statements like "there's data" or "these are just facts" and then the data and facts completely obliterate their bullshit narrative.

Thank you Wick, you've made my day :D
 

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Wickzki said:
I think this is a case of people wanting to have their cake and eating it too.

A lot of our younger players have either had injuries (almost all of them) or haven't been mentally prepared for the rigors of AFL football (e.g. Stocker was granted leave from the hub last year). This is what has prevented a lot of them from getting opportunity.

By and large, I argue that the selection committee has selected players based on merit.

If you smash the door down in the VFL you've been awarded with selection in the seniors (e.g. Liam Stocker).

I'd like examples of players who should be selected for the senior team but who have been overlooked. On what evidence should they be selected? I assure you that we can point to more young players who have been awarded opportunity than those who have not.

As an aside, we all want to see Honey rewarded with an opportunity but I have confidence that if he keeps knocking the door down he'll get it.
Click to expand...

A clear example was us bringing in Newnes last year to play ahead of LOB, while producing pretty similar numbers.
Samo getting dropped this year ahead of Newnes and Gibbons, despite form.

With regards to form, it's not just about players smashing down the door in the 2s, it also relates to what's being produced in the 1s.
Selection integrity has been pretty questionable, with multiple clearly unfit players being favoured ahead of fit players who should have been given the opportunity (eg rushing Williams back in to play on ball when he was clearly not up to it).
 
Stamos said:
A clear example was us bringing in Newnes last year to play ahead of LOB, while producing pretty similar numbers.
Samo getting dropped this year ahead of Newnes and Gibbons, despite form.
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/sigh

Lochie O'Brien Vs Jack Newnes

A simple look at their statistics (O'Brien 2019 Vs Newnes 2020) tells you one of two things.

1. That Jack Newnes was playing in a more accountable, defensive, role than LOB. Therefore it wasn't Newnes who displaced O'Brien in the team. Or;

2. If not, and they were in the same role, then Newnes having a greater than 2-for-1 tackle count and greater contested possession winning ability while mirroring LOB's disposal efficiency while averaging less clangers signifies that Newnes was winning the hard ball more than LOB did and was using it more effectively.

Newnes was selected on merit.

Petrevski Seton - Newnes - Gibbons

If you're going to make an argument about SPS you may want to get your facts straight before you look silly.

R9

Out: Petrevski-Seton, Newnes, Silvagni (conc.)

In: Newman, Murphy, Setterfield

* Gibbons was selected as the medical emergency sub. Sadly, got to play almost a full game because of Cuningham's season-ending knee injury (like SPS had been previously, still got a game).

Gibbons plays an entirely different role in the current Carlton team than does Petrevski-Seton. In fact, it was Cuningham that made Gibbons expendable in the 22. Sadly, Cuners getting hurt enabled Gibbons to pick up his position again. Had he not gotten hurt and had found form it's likely Gibbons would still be on the outside looking in.
 
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Blue__Balls said:
God I love it when some peanut throws out vague statements like "there's data" or "these are just facts" and then the data and facts completely obliterate their bullshit narrative.

Thank you Wick, you've made my day :D
Click to expand...

Good to be on edge for the swans on Sunday.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Wickzki said:
/sigh

Petrevski Seton - Newnes - Gibbons

If you're going to make an argument about SPS you may want to get your facts straight before you look silly.

R9

Out: Petrevski-Seton, Newnes, Silvagni (conc.), Gibbons*

In: Newman, Murphy, Setterfield

* Gibbons was selected as the medical emergency sub. Sadly, got to play almost a full game because of Cuningham's season-ending knee injury.

Gibbons plays an entirely different role in the current Carlton team than does Petrevski-Seton. In fact, it was Cuningham that made Gibbons expendable in the 22. Sadly, Cuners getting hurt enabled Gibbons to pick up his position again. Had he not gotten hurt and had found form it's likely Gibbons would still be on the outside looking in.
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This is ignoring that Samo was dropped after the Brisbane game, his first game moved up the field, had 19 touches, was decent. The same game that Newnes had 12 (less effective) in a similar position, Gibbons had 5 and 4 clangers.

The following week, Samo came on as sub against Essendon and played really well, was dropped again.

His round 9 dropping was after getting less than a quarter as sub replacing Silvagni.
Gibbo was sub against the Dees and got a full game after Cunners' knee. Managed 9 touches. Kept his spot.

As for roles, each of those 3 have played different roles across this season.
Samo back for most of it, then up the ground, mainly wing against the Lions and some in the guts against Essendon. Newnes has mainly been wing, but also used at half back and half forward. Gibbo has played forward pocket, high half forward and some stints on the wing.

It's not correct to say that they are competing for completely different positions, which is pretty evident when this week we have Plowman out and Levi in.
 
Stamos said:
It's not correct to say that they are competing for completely different positions, which is pretty evident when this week we have Plowman out and Levi in.
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Apples to oranges. We want to play a third tall and have a defender injured and suspended. It's a defender for a part-time defender swap. Casboult will not play forward.

Stamos said:
This is ignoring that Samo was dropped after the Brisbane game, his first game moved up the field, had 19 touches, was decent. The same game that Newnes had 12 (less effective) in a similar position, Gibbons had 5 and 4 clangers.

The following week, Samo came on as sub against Essendon and played really well, was dropped again.
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The game after the Brisbane game was the Essendon game where SPS was only dropped to the medical sub role. Similar to Gibbons in the Melbourne game.

Stamos said:
Gibbo was sub against the Dees and got a full game after Cunners' knee. Managed 9 touches. Kept his spot.
Click to expand...

Like I said, Cunners took his fwd-mid spot and when he got hurt Gibbons took it back. They were competing for the same spot. Had Cunners not gotten hurt and played well then Gibbo would be out of the side.

Coincidentally, this is the role that I hope Honey gets a chance to win.
 
SkyhorseTamer said:
The only thing Teague did was move players into their best positions, like Ed out of the forward pocket and back into the guts. 2hich is interesting really as its one of the biggest criticisms this season, that players haven't been played in their best positions.

Oh the other thing he did was stopped the 'endure' bullshit. Playing injured and down on confident players to teach them to 'endure' is what killed Bolton and almost the young team. Understand what bolts Wass angling for but went way too far.
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Bolts had a philosophy that suited a team full of mature players. Enduring through injury is just one age appropriate demand he made without considering their age
Foistering a complex, demanding game plan is another.
Eventually the list may have grown into his demands/teachings, but then again they may never have.
I have always said that I think BB could be a great coach given the right list. Interestingly, probably a.list such as ours now, would go well under BB

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk
 

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Wickzki said:
This is a narrative that I find frustrating. If there was changes "after Teague took over" then it would happen in the aftermath. People constantly cite this as "Teague played for wins so dumped the kids"

Here are our changes from our eleventh game (Bolton's last game as coach) through the remainder of the 2019 season (Teague's coaching).


R12 Stocker (inj), Lang (inj), Kennedy (o), Fasolo (o) for Simpson, Thomas, McGovern, O’Brien

Of the kids Stocker was injured. Kennedy was omitted. In came O'Brien.

R13 Silvagni (o) for Murphy

An argument can be made here. Jack dropped for a week.

R15 Cripps (inj), McKay (inj), Cuningham (inj) for Silvagni, Kennedy, Jones

All three outs are due to injury. Back into the side are "kids" Silvagni and Kennedy.

R16 Charlie Curnow (inj) for Lang

Only change here is an injury.

R17 McGovern (man), Weitering (inj), Marchbank (inj) for Cripps, McKay, Goddard

All three outs are injuries. In came young McKay and first Carlton gamer Goddard.

R18 Dow (inj), Goddard (inj) for DeLuca, Weitering

Dow out through injury. In came first Carlton gamer DeLuca and young Weiters following his injury return.

R19 Kreuzer (man), Fisher (inj) for Phillips, Dow

Kreuzer managed, Fisher injured. In comes young Dow.

R20 Jones (personal), Thomas (inj), Dow (omit) for Fisher, Goddard, Schumacher

Dow omitted but in comes young Zac Fisher, Schumacher. Goddard like-for-like swap with Jones (I think this was when a family member passed away).

R21 Goddard, Schumacher, Kennedy, Phillips for Jones, McGovern, Kreuzer, Thomas

Four veterans return but Kennedy had his chances and failed to convert and Schumacher was done.

R22 Jones (inj), Weitering (inj) for Dow, Kennedy

Out go two injuries with youngsters Dow and Kennedy taking their place.

R23 Gibbons (inj), Lang (inj) for Cuningham, Weitering

Two injuries out with youngsters replacing them (returning Weiters for r23).

Conclusion

The narrative is a fallacy. Aside from Jack Silvagni who missed one week going out for a returning Marc Murphy and round 21 where we had a slew of injury returns there's just no evidence that Teague dropped kids for veterans to win games.

Note: R14 was our bye round.
Click to expand...



There is no reall analysis in this in my view - the only real way of determining things is to actually LOOK at the data - so to settle this once and for all - here is the data.

Taking the age of players from AFLtables.com, and then getting the players age at the start of each year, then taking the team list of each round from afl.com.au/stats , and then averaging the age of the players for each game - we can get a snap shot of the actual data.

Each year is presented with coaches colour coded - with the 2019 season cross over visible.

Just to put this to bed - with the facts and the data. I think 2019 speaks for itself. Volumes. I think the the issue of preferencing older players vs developing youth can also well and truly be put to bed as well.

teague_vs_bolton.png
 
Pentatonic Flat Fifth said:
There is no reall analysis in this in my view - the only real way of determining things is to actually LOOK at the data - so to settle this once and for all - here is the data.

Taking the age of players from AFLtables.com, and then getting the players age at the start of each year, then taking the team list of each round from afl.com.au/stats , and then averaging the age of the players for each game - we can get a snap shot of the actual data.

Each year is presented with coaches colour coded - with the 2019 season cross over visible.

Just to put this to bed - with the facts and the data. I think 2019 speaks for itself. Volumes.

View attachment 1140273
Click to expand...

Your data sheet looks nice but it fails to take into consideration who was dropped and why they were dropped (e.g. injury or otherwise).

Your data treats players solely as numbers.

Even then your numbers finalize with Teague playing a marginally older list, not even a year, a few months at best.

Show me one instance where the club selected a player substantially older than a younger player other than Jack Silvagni out for Marc Murphy (which I identified).
 
Wickzki said:
Your data sheet looks nice but it fails to take into consideration who was dropped and why they were dropped (e.g. injury or otherwise).

Your data treats players solely as numbers.

Even then your numbers finalize with Teague playing a marginally older list, not even a year, a few months at best.

Show me one instance where the club selected a player substantially older than a younger player other than Jack Silvagni out for Marc Murphy (which I identified).
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You edited your post....

Lets remember that there are generally around ten years age difference between players - so even a 1 or 2 year age difference is considerable. (10%,20%)

When Teague took over, the issue DIRECTLY at hand here - he took the average age of the list from 23 and around 10 months to 27 and 7 months - that is a turn around of 5 years, which is a massive correction - AND it is the single largest / sharpest turn around at any point in average age at any point in in the last 6 years.

The REASON why this data has been put together is to remove the SELECTIVE bias and lack of statistical/ factual basis.

There it is - I get that you don't like it , but its right there.
 
But even so - why do you decide that this is where it finishes ?

Take a look at the very next year - straight into the highest age use in 2020, and this continues into 2021.

Its only really after all the media beat up, and supporter base etc going mental that things have finally started to change.

I like Teague, please don't get me wrong - and using older players is smart - it really is - but the way he is going about the players like Dow, Obrien, SPS, and several others is damaging long term.

Not having a negative agenda - just raising awareness on this issue.

Hence the data.
 
Pentatonic Flat Fifth said:
You edited your post....

Lets remember that there are generally around ten years age difference between players - so even a 1 or 2 year age difference is considerable. (10%,20%)

When Teague took over, the issue DIRECTLY at hand here - he took the average age of the list from 23 and around 10 months to 27 and 7 months - that is a turn around of 5 years, which is a massive correction - AND it is the single largest / sharpest turn around at any point in average age at any point in in the last 6 years.

The REASON why this data has been put together is to remove the SELECTIVE bias and lack of statistical/ factual basis.

There it is - I get that you don't like it , but its right there.
Click to expand...

According to your data had we played Finbar O'Dwyer it would have been better than had we played, for arguments sake, Sam Docherty or Patrick Cripps

That is the only argument I need to be demonstrste to show the flaw in your garbage data.

I know you don't like it but it's true.
 

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