Universal Love David Teague

[Arr0w]

Teams of great playing talent only truly realise their full potential when lead by good to great coaches. Rarely does poor coaching still yield excellent on-field results.

Teams with great playing talent but clueless coaching can quickly disintegrate as players look to take their talents elsewhere. And we were in that boat last year with Mr. Green Shoots.

Teague playing to our strengths and utilising the full list, including our mature players, is good coaching. Winning games is the best teacher of all. At the same time he is not ignoring the younger aspects of our list, the slow blooding of De Koning and Williamson is how successful teams do it.

This is the first time since Parko's second run that I feel our head coach is no longer a liability. Twenty friggin' years!!

We have had this conversation before, disprove the following and someone may sway me

Alan Joyce at Hawthorn then Dogs, two vastly different outcomes

Worsfold Eagles, now Bummers

Clarkson, with and without talent

Malthouse at the Dogs, WC, Pies, Carlton

Dimma and Thompson, had to be patient for that talent to hit maturity

It's all about the list

 

[thylacine60]

We have had this conversation before, disprove the following and someone may sway me

Alan Joyce at Hawthorn then Dogs, two vastly different outcomes

Worsfold Eagles, now Bummers

Clarkson, with and without talent

Malthouse at the Dogs, WC, Pies, Carlton

Dimma and Thompson, had to be patient for that talent to hit maturity

It's all about the list

Barassi at Melbourne. The Messiah did nothing in 5 years.

 

[HARKER]

It's all about the list

GWS are widely regarded as having the best list and we're currently above them.

There's no single factor that makes all the difference.
I liked what Balme (?) said last year. He spoke about the 5 key pillars of a club and I may have not heard properly, but when asked who was most important, he said the board was, because it all starts from the top.

 

[Osc1]

We have had this conversation before, disprove the following and someone may sway me

Alan Joyce at Hawthorn then Dogs, two vastly different outcomes

Worsfold Eagles, now Bummers

Clarkson, with and without talent

Malthouse at the Dogs, WC, Pies, Carlton

Dimma and Thompson, had to be patient for that talent to hit maturity

It's all about the list

No one is doubting that. Of course you need talent on your list. You see this in any sporting code. You also need a coach and good people around him to get the best out of your list.

As much as you tend to dismiss the importance of a coach others will highlight the very need of it.
No one needs to persuade you though. I’m pretty sure you’re smart enough to see this yourself. And it’s more than just the list and coaching panel.

 

[dlb99]

disprove the following and someone may sway me

Michael Jordan with and without Phil Jackson.

Carlton with Brendon Bolton 2017-2019: 4 wins 41 losses.

Pretty much the exact same Carlton team with David Teague 2019-2020: 12 wins, 11 loses.

It's all about the list

No it isn't otherwise GWS would have won three flags by now. They had the best list 16/17/18 and won nothing. The best list is does not guarantee premiership success.

Your dismissal of coaching is ludicrous. You need both good coaching and a great list in equal parts otherwise failure will eventuate. Hawthorn is failing now because their list sucks. GWS hasn't won a premiership because their coach is average at best.

If Carlton persisted with the last coach we would not be where we are today.

 

[Arr0w]

Michael Jordan with and without Phil Jackson.

Carlton with Brendon Bolton 2017-2019: 4 wins 41 losses.

Pretty much the exact same Carlton team with David Teague 2019-2020: 12 wins, 11 loses.



No it isn't otherwise GWS would have won three flags by now. They had the best list 16/17/18 and won nothing. The best list is does not guarantee premiership success.

Your dismissal of coaching is ludicrous. You need both good coaching and a great list in equal parts otherwise failure will eventuate. Hawthorn is failing now because their list sucks. GWS hasn't won a premiership because their coach is average at best.

If Carlton persisted with the last coach we would not be where we are today.

Strange that you say since Parkin we haven't had a decent coach, what were the players like during that era

Bolton took over from Clarkson, 5 and zip wasn't it?

And you have not addressed the majority of the criteria

Hardwick, people were calling for his head

Thompson, only Costa backed him in

Joyce Hawthorn/Dogs

Clarkson etc etc

We even had people saying Teague coached the first half of the Hawks game last year then Bolton took over for a loss. What happened this year

We all concede Bolton played too many kids, now Teague needs to transition to youth

 

[gab213]

This is a bit of a chicken or egg argument but in my mind, there's no doubt that you need a decent list of players, of equal importance, is the need to have a decent coach.

A coach plays a part in the fortune of his team on game day with his tactics and sometimes his ability to focus his players.

The Carlton team of the late 70s and early 80s was probably the best I have ever seen, if Parkin would've been the coach in 1980 instead of Percy Jones we could have won the premiership in that year too.

The 1995 team was an exceptional team full of older experienced champions, they needed minimal direction. Teams like that aren't all that common.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Michael Jordan with and without Phil Jackson.

Please !!! When he went to wizards he had nothing left -- from memory they were in finals contention that first season till his injuries took toll .. he would of taken teams to finals wherever he went In his prime -- but Phil Jackson is a legendary mentor as history shows .. Probably that Chicago Bull team proves Balme wrong as there
Owner and directors were dysfunctional ..

 

[chunkylover53]

We have had this conversation before, disprove the following and someone may sway me

Alan Joyce at Hawthorn then Dogs, two vastly different outcomes

Worsfold Eagles, now Bummers

Clarkson, with and without talent

Malthouse at the Dogs, WC, Pies, Carlton

Dimma and Thompson, had to be patient for that talent to hit maturity

It's all about the list

Hard to tell at AFL level.

but my experience in local footy, is a good coach makes a world of bloody difference. have seen a change in coach unite a whole footy club community, and a crap coach destroy it. from senior footy all the way down to junior grade.

i do reckon it is overrated at AFL level, the most overrated, I'm unsure. plenty of players walk from their clubs due to problems with the coach, and players nominate clubs to play for that specific coach. so it is somewhat valuable.

coaches definitely have used-by-dates, clarko is past his.

 

[chunkylover53]

the best coaching i've seen is Bevos 8 week period leading up to the 2016 flag.

both tactically and the amount he was able to extract out of that group (also being smashed by injuries). unbelievable.

 

[Arr0w]

Hard to tell at AFL level.

but my experience in local footy, is a good coach makes a world of bloody difference. have seen a change in coach unite a whole footy club community, and a crap coach destroy it. from senior footy all the way down to junior grade.

i do reckon it is overrated at AFL level, the most overrated, I'm unsure. plenty of players walk from their clubs due to problems with the coach, and players nominate clubs to play for that specific coach. so it is somewhat valuable.

coaches definitely have used-by-dates, clarko is past his.

Can one be a better motivator than another, absolutely, but that only goes so far, for so long. Not suggesting they are invaluable, just further down the pecking order of priorities

1. List Management & Talent ID
2. Fitness Department
3. Development
4. Coaches

Look at it this way, if every coach, had the same gameplan, delivered the message in a similar way, what is the point of difference from a bottom, mid or top table side?

 

[Arr0w]

the best coaching i've seen is Bevos 8 week period leading up to the 2016 flag.

both tactically and the amount he was able to extract out of that group (also being smashed by injuries). unbelievable.

True and extremely lucky they got 5 very good players back for that 1st final

I actually rate Bevo the best current coach and like Teague, less process driven (Clarko process maniac, ala Bolton), more people person

 

[chunkylover53]

Can one be a better motivator than another, absolutely, but that only goes so far, for so long. Not suggesting they are invaluable, just further down the pecking order of priorities

1. List Management & Talent ID
2. Fitness Department
3. Development
4. Coaches

Look at it this way, if every coach, had the same gameplan, delivered the message in a similar way, what is the point of difference from a bottom, mid or top table side?

Fair. I'd swap 3 with 4. Good coaching comes good development. players don't develop under poor senior coaches, no matter how good the 'development' coach is.

True and extremely lucky they got 5 very good players back for that 1st final

I actually rate Bevo the best current coach and like Teague, less process driven (Clarko process maniac, ala Bolton), more people person

yep was just a freak at getting the best out of that group. has been up and down since. love him though, one of my favourite blokes in footy.

 

[Arr0w]

Fair. I'd swap 3 with 4. Good coaching comes good development. players don't develop under poor senior coaches, no matter how good the 'development' coach is.


yep was just a freak at getting the best out of that group. has been up and down since. love him though, one of my favourite blokes in footy.

Development in other parts. Luke Power will do wonders with our younger players.

 

[RedFury]

We have had this conversation before, disprove the following and someone may sway me

Alan Joyce at Hawthorn then Dogs, two vastly different outcomes

Worsfold Eagles, now Bummers

Clarkson, with and without talent

Malthouse at the Dogs, WC, Pies, Carlton

Dimma and Thompson, had to be patient for that talent to hit maturity

It's all about the list

I always remembered Leigh Matthews, after having coached 2 different teams to 4 premierships, said something very similar. Something like "It's 90% player talent and leadership". Also Bomber Thomson admitting the 2007-2011 Geelong sides just about coached themselves at times.

 

[dlb99]

Please !!! When he went to wizards he had nothing left -- from memory they were in finals contention that first season till his injuries took toll .. he would of taken teams to finals wherever he went In his prime -- but Phil Jackson is a legendary mentor as history shows .. Probably that Chicago Bull team proves Balme wrong as there
Owner and directors were dysfunctional ..

I am talking about the Doug Collins Bulls teams; not the Jordan Wizards years.

Coaching matters. Talent matters. When coaching and talent combine then multiple championships result. Without Phil Jackson MJ does not have 6 rings.

Likewise if Green Shoots was still the coach now we would not be 6 and 6, we'd be close to where Adelaide are.

 

[dlb99]

I always remembered Leigh Matthews, after having coached 2 different teams to 4 premierships, said something very similar. Something like "It's 90% player talent and leadership". Also Bomber Thomson admitting the 2007-2011 Geelong sides just about coached themselves at times.

Team leadership is a function of good coaching.
It doesn't just ferment in a vacuum.

Lethal and Bomber were multi-time premiership players and captains, even before then went into coaching. They absolutely had a lot to do with the premierships their teams won in the 2000s.

Talent by itself is simply not enough.

 

[Opine]

GWS are widely regarded as having the best list and we're currently above them.

There's no single factor that makes all the difference.
I liked what Balme (?) said last year. He spoke about the 5 key pillars of a club and I may have not heard properly, but when asked who was most important, he said the board was, because it all starts from the top.

That sounds like an indirect endorsement for SOS's prowess as a LM. Will you therefore finally admit that he has been a good LM?

 

[dlb99]

Can one be a better motivator than another, absolutely, but that only goes so far, for so long. Not suggesting they are invaluable, just further down the pecking order of priorities

1. List Management & Talent ID
2. Fitness Department
3. Development
4. Coaches

Look at it this way, if every coach, had the same gameplan, delivered the message in a similar way, what is the point of difference from a bottom, mid or top table side?

My order.

1. List Management & Talent ID

2. Leadership via Coaches, Captain(s), Footy Boss and CEO

3. Development

4. Fitness & high performance

You don't win premierships of any of the above are subpar.

 

[RedFury]

Team leadership is a function of good coaching.
It doesn't just ferment in a vacuum.

Lethal and Bomber were multi-time premiership players and captains, even before then went into coaching. They absolutely had a lot to do with the premierships their teams won in the 2000s.

Talent by itself is simply not enough.

I agree - coaching and development are vital in building the leadership and nurturing the talent that will build a premiership team/list. Once that talent has been developed and leaders have emerged, once a team becomes a genuine premiership threat, that's the point where teams could often almost (and I do stress almost) coach themselves.

We've seen what happens multiple times when raw talent isn't supplemented with good development, leadership and a winning culture. It doesn't end well.

Without the raw talent/list none of it can happen though. And it is telling that a coach like Matthews, with all his coaching success and experience, would say it's 90% talent.

 

[Arr0w]

My order.

1. List Management & Talent ID

2. Leadership via Coaches, Captain(s), Footy Boss and CEO

3. Development

4. Fitness & high performance

You don't win premierships of any of the above are subpar.

Never said subpar

Firstly CEOs have nothing to do with how players perform or game plans, neither does a footy boss

Just think of it this way. If you lost anyone/any area that was underperforming which is the easiest to replace quickly

Hardest to easiest

1. If you botch the list, either through bad I'd or list management, takes at least 5 years to repair/rebuild

2 Fitness, you could have the best coach in the world, but if your players have a poor program, could take 1 to 2 years to rectify

3 Development, see point 2

4 Coaches, Grant Thomas took the saints to a finals series, replaced by Lyons, 6th to 9th, back in finals

Jeans to Joyce

Then the opposite way

Scott to Shaw, same medium term output after the initial spike

Longmire with and without a gifted list, Clarko, Malthouse the same

Easier to replace a coach, tells you how much impact they have compared to the 3 other factors

 

[Jimmyonesix]

I am talking about the Doug Collins Bulls teams; not the Jordan Wizards years.

Coaching matters. Talent matters. When coaching and talent combine then multiple championships result. Without Phil Jackson MJ does not have 6 rings.

Likewise if Green Shoots was still the coach now we would not be 6 and 6, we'd be close to where Adelaide are.

How the bulls go when MJ played baseball

 

[dlb99]

How the bulls go when MJ played baseball

0 rings without MJ during those 18 months. The first year they did force the Knicks to a game seven.

MJ without Phil 0 rings btw.

 

[FairKouta]

If clarko said he wanted to come to carlton would we do it ?

 

[Arr0w]

If clarko said he wanted to come to carlton would we do it ?

No