Universal Love David Teague

[cookie monster]

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Looking for an update on the bed front this week?

Is it made/unmade?

Did teague make it?

So many questions, so few people to be able to blame.

Hahahaha I love seeing how carried away some on here are getting after the last 2 wins. Bless

 

[BigFrizz36]

Hahahaha I love seeing how carried away some on here are getting after the last 2 wins. Bless

Not getting carried away, unlike some who make broad statements like people have made their beds etc.

More than that though it's just a gentle stir. If we were to get tidied up this week you have the option of making a bed themed joke at my expense.

 

[Blues Clues]

The commentary throughout the whole year was that they were never going to be good enough to seriously contend.. and they weren't.

Who gives a sh*t? Probably most sane supporters. If you're running with that logic then Richmond actually finished 3rd in 2017 and the Premiers shouldn't get the last pick in the draft. H&A means fu** all at the end of the day, especially when you don't fire a shot in your two finals. Also you realise their percentage was the 2nd lowest of any other team in the 8? They predictably got bowed out in straight sets with an ageing list. If you think that's validation then good for you, I guess.

Yes, I do expect that - it's literally their full time jobs and are paid hundreds of thousands to do so to make the correct decisions.

Lolz. What I’d give to finish top 4 and go out in straight sets.

 

[blue healer]

Lolz. What I’d give to finish top 4 and go out in straight sets.

For some that would definitely signal the end of the coach.

 

[DangerousD]

Finally, some common sense, objective and thoughtful opinions that is well argued and backed up with solid facts.


If Teague goes he goes, life goes on, but I am convinced The Angry Midget is not a healthy choice for a club with so many young and players that need positive reinforcement like ours, and has really done horrible list management decisions that have set Hawthorn's rebuild back years.

Teague certainly deserves at least ONE more year in charge, and if doesn't work out, go for someone like Yze.

Clarkson is not a Bill Belichick type that coaches better as he gets older. Far from it.

Is it too much to ask for a bit more patience for a young and promising senior coach who is still finding his way in his position ?

Im starting to think that you dont know who Alastair Clarkson is, because the Clarkson at Hawthorn took a young side and developed them into one of the best sides ever.

Were those young Hawthorn players different to ours? Why do our players need such positive reinforcement but the Hawks didn’t?

Or maybe his record is what it is, because he knows how to coach, how to get the best out of people and can adapt.

You know that the Hawks were a mess when he got there?

 

[DangerousD]

Clarkson is a significant reason why Hawthorn's list is so poor, he was the instigator to bring the likes of Wingard, Scully, Patton across to the Hawks

He is an ego maniac who would demand too much power at the club, esp with regards to drafting and trading.

Finally, it has to be said, Teague has not had enough time to proven himself as coach or not. It's not really his fault if some supporters have way to high expectations (I would argue in some cases unreasonable)

We have nothing to lose by giving Teague another year with a better group of assistants

Elmer, how is recruiting Scully and Patton who cost F all, the reason the list is so poor? They overpaid for Winguard, it happens at most clubs, regularly

 

[DangerousD]

And Malthouse was a campaigner with 3 flags and Pagan had two flags.

How did they go?

Malthouse won a final.

 

[DangerousD]

My point is that twice we have gone for the "Coaching wizard" who has won multiple flags elsewhere and where did it get us? In a worse spot then before they arrived.

Let's look at the last few premiership coaches
Beveridge - young, no premiership coaching success elsewhere.
Hardwick - young, battled early and has now won 3 out of the last 4
Simpson - young coach, perennial finalists and won a flag in 2018.

These guys were backed by the club and not given the flick after 2-3 years even when there has been external pressure.

Do you think Ratten was poorly treated by getting the sack?

I don’t mind the idea of backing in new, young coaches if you think they have what it takes, but referencing Pagan and Malthouse as examples of why not to go with experience again is pretty lazy.

How was the list when we recruited Pagan? Probably the worst it’s been and the club nearly folded, how was the list towards the end of Malthouses tenure? Very very bad, you have seen our drafting history.

What did you expect them to do, with the crap they inherited?

 

[katmanblue]

Ah yes, facts like the year they went out in straight sets they chose to sell the farm to top up for a flag and failed miserably? There's literally an entire thread on it that's been going on for years.

Why don't you show your facts instead of cheerleading from the sidelines about "narratives"?

Nah.

 

[Garters]

Clarkson is a significant reason why Hawthorn's list is so poor, he was the instigator to bring the likes of Wingard, Scully, Patton across to the Hawks

He is an ego maniac who would demand too much power at the club, esp with regards to drafting and trading.

Finally, it has to be said, Teague has not had enough time to proven himself as coach or not. It's not really his fault if some supporters have way to high expectations (I would argue in some cases unreasonable)

We have nothing to lose by giving Teague another year with a better group of assistants

Elmer, I think I am in the 'sort Teague out with proper support and axe Lloyd' type camp of thinking at this point from what I have seen and what I feel is right, but there is a very strong case to be argued for implementing a Clarkson Regime.

After 4 flags with the one coach we could recruit big bird for what it's worth trying to ecke out the last remaining remnants of a great group and have a hail Mary at a 5th flag. Which was their strategy with the recruiting you mention.

However I think many on here I would suggest are significantly under estimating what he has achieved given what he came into and what he has brought out of not 'star' footballers yet turning them into key cogs in the team wheel along side a core group of guns. You hear players, administrators and past players alike speak of him. It is not a cut and dried good v bad landscape we are venturing into.. To be continued !!

 

[katmanblue]

I don’t mind the idea of backing in new, young coaches if you think they have what it takes, but referencing Pagan and Malthouse as examples of why not to go with experience again is pretty lazy.

How was the list when we recruited Pagan? Probably the worst it’s been and the club nearly folded, how was the list towards the end of Malthouses tenure? Very very bad, you have seen our drafting history.

What did you expect them to do, with the crap they inherited?

But, but messiahhhhhhh.

 

[MissBlueBagger93]

I really do hope Teague stays and Clarkson coaches elsewhere.

I do not have any mini-thesis's for it. No rhetoric, no equations, no statistical, hard-backed evidence to convince anyone of this feeling...

However I do have this clip, which contains all of my reasoning

 

[TENACIOUS]

And Malthouse was a campaigner with 3 flags and Pagan had two flags.

How did they go?

Malthouse won a final with us...
But in hindsight he was a shocking choice and shocking coach for us...

Pagan took over then we got hit with the salary cap scandal and penalties..
You could argue a strong coach like him was exactly what we needed, to get us through that period of our history..
We still feel the ramifications from it in our Carlton DNA and Culture 20 years on..
Why was Pagan a failure at Carlton? What did you expect him to achieve?

 

[chunkylover53]

Malthouse won a final with us...
But in hindsight he was a shocking choice and shocking coach for us...

Pagan took over then we got hit with the salary cap scandal and penalties..
You could argue a strong coach like him was exactly what we needed, to get us through that period of our history..
We still feel the ramifications from it in our Carlton DNA and Culture 20 years on..
Why was Pagan a failure at Carlton? What did you expect him to achieve?

Carlton aside, who's the last experienced coach to go to a second club and have success?

Denis Pagan to Carlton - bust
Mick Malthouse to Carlton - bust
Rocket Eade to Gold Coast - bust
John Worsfold to Essendon - bust

Ross Lyon to Freo was pretty successful, but he was in his early 40's and still in his peak. Is Clarko still in his peak?

 

[myblueroan]

Can you imagine the how perfect that his orangeness would be in respects round? Wouldn't even need to wear the socks. Just roll up his pants.

This is a tremendous club. The greatest club and no, you cannot have access to our soft cap data. Also, we are not colluding with Collingwood to bring Essendon down. Those emails are Fake News!
We won the premership fair and square. We were not 13th.
This is a witch hunt.

 

[Earls Smother]

Carlton aside, who's the last experienced coach to go to a second club and have success?

Denis Pagan to Carlton - bust
Mick Malthouse to Carlton - bust
Rocket Eade to Gold Coast - bust
John Worsfold to Essendon - bust

Ross Lyon to Freo was pretty successful, but he was in his early 40's and still in his peak. Is Clarko still in his peak?

Malthouse's 2nd and 3rd clubs were successful - WC and Collingwood.

Parkin, Blight and Matthews all did it.

The recent trend is not great, but look at the rubbish lists all those above inherited.

How often has the move to a second club actually happened in the last 20 years, discounting us? Lyon and Roos are 2. You can't really count GC and GWS given unique circumstances. Pretty hard to have success at a second club if not many are actually trying it. Ratten is the only current coach at a second club of the current 18, so the odds are heavily stacked against it being successful. There is only a 5.55% mathematical chance that it could happen this year (coach at 2nd club win a flag) so it is not a fair market to assess.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Carlton aside, who's the last experienced coach to go to a second club and have success?

Denis Pagan to Carlton - bust
Mick Malthouse to Carlton - bust
Rocket Eade to Gold Coast - bust
John Worsfold to Essendon - bust

Ross Lyon to Freo was pretty successful, but he was in his early 40's and still in his peak. Is Clarko still in his peak?

This is an interesting list.

I wasn't as interested in footy back when Pagan was coaching, so I can't really comment on that one, but on the others:

Malthouse took over Carlton when we had a shocking list with a backwards culture, and proceeded to start cleaning out the unprofessional ones. Wrong choice, but set the wheels in motion for what we actually needed. I don't thnk we had the list then for him to be chasing a flag.

Gold Coast's issues run a lot deeper than the coach. Their retention issues feed into their on-field performance, because they're in a constant state of immaturity. Kids come in, struggle to perform, and go out before they peak.

And Worsfold landed the Essendon gig after the Drug Bust, with Hird being booted by the AFL. His first year he lost half his best 22 to suspension. Despite the cultural issues he took them back to finals a few years later.

I think we need to stop comparing "experienced coach's going to second clubs" where those clubs present as entirely different prospects to current Carlton.

We're not 2013 Carlton, with a list bereft of talent and populated by players who don't really give a shit.
We're not Gold Coast who lose half a dozen best 22 players every year and have to keep topping up via the draft.
We're not 2015 Essendon, just outed for doping our entire list and facing mass suspensions.

What we are is a team of talented young players who aren't gelling all that well, and aren't doing enough of the "team things" that take sides from good but inconsistent to consistently good and then on to great.

If Teague can demonstrate that he's able to fix those issues, then he's got my full support. If not, then I'm down with chasing a coach who demonstrates that they understand those things that our team needs to fix, whether that coach be 30 or 60 years old, at their first club or their fifth.

 

[Red Bull]

This is an interesting list.

I wasn't as interested in footy back when Pagan was coaching, so I can't really comment on that one, but on the others:

Malthouse took over Carlton when we had a shocking list with a backwards culture, and proceeded to start cleaning out the unprofessional ones. Wrong choice, but set the wheels in motion for what we actually needed. I don't thnk we had the list then for him to be chasing a flag.

Gold Coast's issues run a lot deeper than the coach. Their retention issues feed into their on-field performance, because they're in a constant state of immaturity. Kids come in, struggle to perform, and go out before they peak.

And Worsfold landed the Essendon gig after the Drug Bust, with Hird being booted by the AFL. His first year he lost half his best 22 to suspension. Despite the cultural issues he took them back to finals a few years later.

I think we need to stop comparing "experiences coach's going to second clubs" where those clubs present as entirely different prospects to current Carlton.

We're not 2013 Carlton, with a list bereft of talent and populated by players who don't really give a sh*t.
We're not Gold Coast who lose half a dozen best 22 players every year and have to keep topping up via the draft.
We're not 2015 Essendon, just outed for doping our entire list and facing mass suspensions.

What we are is a team of talented young players who aren't gelling all that well, and aren't doing enough of the "team things" that take sides from good but inconsistent to consistently good and then on to great.

If Teague can demonstrate that he's able to fix those issues, then he's got my full support. If not, then I'm down with chasing a coach who demonstrates that they understand those things that our team needs to fix, whether that coach be 30 or 60 years old, at their first club or their fifth.

Good post.
Our list is in pretty good shape and will only get better in the coming years as it matures and the deckchairs are cleared.
The footy department is the identified problem area and that may or may not include Teague.
If Teague is for the high jump, a coach of Clarkson’s caliber being available is an incredible and rare opportunity.
Unlike some others in the past who have reported to work in their slippers, reports suggest Clarkson has the steel capped boots well and truly laced up and is as hungry as ever.
The plane is ready for takeoff, we may just need the pilot …

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

You can brush it off as a calculated risk that is no biggie all you want. Reality is they didn't get close to where they thought they'd be and have set themselves back 4-5 years because of it.

Somehow the continual fascination with big name messiahs from Carlton fans continue to surprise me. We saw the exact same movie with Mick not even that long ago. Best coach of all time, succession plan etc etc.

1-2 years. They were going to rebuild anyway, don't embellish to prove your point.


Messiah complex? That's just bandied about by people who can't think of a real reason to put down an idea. All clubs hire and fire rookies or people with previous experience. No one thinks he's the saviour he'll come and we can put our feet up let him work. That's what messiah implies, not one. Malthouse wasn't even a messiah he was an experienced coach, yes. Since when does hiring someone who's ****ing been a head coach before suddenly always mean messiah. So carltons only allowed to hire rookie no names then? Rubbish. The only reason it's a carlton messiah complex is because when weve brought the name in we've failed recent years. Every other club brings names in too. Probably more so than us, it really is insulting and untrue.

 

[Percy2257]

Straight sets is not a top four finish..

Overpaying for Wingard during a period when they desperately needed high draft picks. They completely misread the situation. Context is required.

Yes, the crux of rebuilding is investing in the top-end of the draft.

Talking up that group of players is an interesting tactic, besides Jiath and Worpel it's one of the more uninspiring lists of young players I've seen recently. Also you're missing my point, they're rebuilding now for sure, but they should have started 4 years ago instead of giving away draft picks and topping up with mature players year after year. If they had gone close to a flag I'd accept it as a good risk/reward situation, but they got nowhere and completely misjudged their list, now it's a bit of a rabble.




You can brush it off as a calculated risk that is no biggie all you want. Reality is they didn't get close to where they thought they'd be and have set themselves back 4-5 years because of it.

Somehow the continual fascination with big name messiahs from Carlton fans continue to surprise me. We saw the exact same movie with Mick not even that long ago. Best coach of all time, succession plan etc etc.

The only way a succession plan has a real chance of working is if the departing senior coach is the originator and promoter of it.
I know Eddie claims that it was Mick’s idea for Buckley to succeed him. It wasn’t. In truth, Eddie, thinking that there are many ways to skin a cat, spoke to Mick’s manager and then, in effect, relied on Mick’s manager to persuade Mick to come up with the plan so that it could (falsely) be said that it was Mick’s idea and not the clubs.
Senior Coaches are necessarily egomaniacs. If you impose a succession plan on them, as Kennett has done to Clarkson, it will invariably fail, one way or the other.
For the succession plan to have any chance to work the departing senior coach has to be fully invested in it. Mick wasn’t and it remains to be seen whether Clarko will be.
And as for Jeff Kennett we know what the quality of his managerial and governance skills are: highly variable due to his forceful personality triumphing calm, sound judgment far too often.

 

[blueboy25]

I don’t mind the idea of backing in new, young coaches if you think they have what it takes, but referencing Pagan and Malthouse as examples of why not to go with experience again is pretty lazy.

How was the list when we recruited Pagan? Probably the worst it’s been and the club nearly folded, how was the list towards the end of Malthouses tenure? Very very bad, you have seen our drafting history.

What did you expect them to do, with the crap they inherited?

Obviously Pagan was dealt a bad hand but he only knew one way to coach and wouldn't change his style which didn't help when we had so many kids.

The way Malthouse behaved when things started going wrong was terrible. How many of our players have good things to say about him?

Had a bad list? He had Judd, Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer, Simpson amongst others still playing. Not exactly bottom of the barrel stuff.

 

[chunkylover53]

1-2 years. They were going to rebuild anyway, don't embellish to prove your point.


Messiah complex? That's just bandied about by people who can't think of a real reason to put down an idea. All clubs hire and fire rookies or people with previous experience. No one thinks he's the saviour he'll come and we can put our feet up let him work. That's what messiah implies, not one. Malthouse wasn't even a messiah he was an experienced coach, yes. Since when does hiring someone who's ******* been a head coach before suddenly always mean messiah. So carltons only allowed to hire rookie no names then? Rubbish. The only reason it's a carlton messiah complex is because when weve brought the name in we've failed recent years. Every other club brings names in too. Probably more so than us, it really is insulting and untrue.

It runs deeper than just 'experienced coach' label.

I see messiah complex as big name, big money, a hero of some sort to 'take us to the next level'. Carlton have always done it, just bought our way to success by buying big names - it used to work fine but not anymore.

Mick ticked every single box. We create the biggest story of the year by bringing in a big name and handing them the keys to the kingdom. How can you argue he wasn't? We literally got him in to take us to a flag and let him do whatever he wanted, that's the definition of a saviour, messiah, whatever you want to call it. We didn't even run a process to hire him, just gave him a cheque, let him go on his book tour and rock when he pleased with his mates Buttifant and Wiley.

We will likely do the same thing with Clarko and nobody knows for sure if it will work out or not, but recent history (which people are ignoring) says it won't.

This is an interesting list.

I wasn't as interested in footy back when Pagan was coaching, so I can't really comment on that one, but on the others:

Malthouse took over Carlton when we had a shocking list with a backwards culture, and proceeded to start cleaning out the unprofessional ones. Wrong choice, but set the wheels in motion for what we actually needed. I don't thnk we had the list then for him to be chasing a flag.

Gold Coast's issues run a lot deeper than the coach. Their retention issues feed into their on-field performance, because they're in a constant state of immaturity. Kids come in, struggle to perform, and go out before they peak.

And Worsfold landed the Essendon gig after the Drug Bust, with Hird being booted by the AFL. His first year he lost half his best 22 to suspension. Despite the cultural issues he took them back to finals a few years later.

I think we need to stop comparing "experienced coach's going to second clubs" where those clubs present as entirely different prospects to current Carlton.

We're not 2013 Carlton, with a list bereft of talent and populated by players who don't really give a sh*t.
We're not Gold Coast who lose half a dozen best 22 players every year and have to keep topping up via the draft.
We're not 2015 Essendon, just outed for doping our entire list and facing mass suspensions.

What we are is a team of talented young players who aren't gelling all that well, and aren't doing enough of the "team things" that take sides from good but inconsistent to consistently good and then on to great.

If Teague can demonstrate that he's able to fix those issues, then he's got my full support. If not, then I'm down with chasing a coach who demonstrates that they understand those things that our team needs to fix, whether that coach be 30 or 60 years old, at their first club or their fifth.

Shocking list? We had every right to be in a preliminary final in 2011, and still won 11 games with our worst injury list in history in 2012.

Judd, Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer, Betts, Garlett, Yarran, Henderson, Jamieson, Scotland, Simpson, Walker, Touhey, Robinson - that's not a rubbish list. Maybe lacking depth but there could've been a window right if we held our nerve better. Looking at those years in hindsight, it's easier to say "our list was crap then, but is good now", but at the time that certainly wasn't the case - we won far more then than we currently do; and we weren't exactly old.

Gold Coast had just narrowly missed finals, still had their core together + arguably the GOAT and Rocket came in - again - as a big name on big money to 'take the club to the next level' and he butchered the whole thing causing an exodus.

Essendon I'll give you, Worsfold stood no chance but it was immediately clear he couldn't be arsed.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Depends what you define as Success?
Getting the club back on track, being the strong leader the club desperately needed or winning a Premiership?

Since 2000

Premiership
Leigh Matthews to Brisbane (2001, 2002 & 2003)
Mick Malthouse to Collingwood (2010)

Successful Non Premiership
Dennis Pagan to Carlton - Strong coach like him was exactly what we needed, not so good for him.. But I'm thankful for him to stay in that situation
Paul Roos to Melbourne - Set strong standards on and off field, brought Melbourne into the 21st Centry
John Worsfold - Ditto Pagan..
Ross Lyon - Got Fremantle into a grand final.
Kevin Sheedy - Set the club culture and framework

Don't see what age has to do with it, Fagan is 60.. It's the drive and hunger that they have..
Personally, if we do change coach, at a minimum I hope our culture gets changed for the better for the future..

You also have to consider, the majority of coaching positions available are to clubs on their knees facing or in a rebuild..
We are in a position where a few missing pieces here and there and we are nearly ready to go..

To state the obvious "Dennis Pagan to carlton a success". That's an interesting rewriting of history.

Sure he was dealt a bad hand that he wasn't to know about but it could hardly be termed a success.

Careyless he was shown for what he was, a good junior coach pretty much bereft of ideas apart from giving one of the best players of all time space up forward.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Question?
Is it possible that one of the smartest and best coaches in history may have learned from past mistakes? Our list is all but full of quality now, he would tweak, he wouldn’t be reaching for bargains. It wouldn’t be necessary.
I love Harry McKay, but do you think Clarkson is more likely to devise physical and mental drills to turn him from a possible Coleman medallist to a Franklin level generational forward? No flakey routines or mental fragility after a Clarko preseason, I would wager. Put a fit Charlie beside him and look out competition.

Would be fascinating to see how he would use our midfielders.Suspect Walsh would be more wing, but who gets inside? Players would be tried in different spots. It has been astounding the lack of creativity with our list. It would e changed up, big time. Talking more positional than personnl.

All interesting points to ponder, however as much as I love Harry, I don't think he has the explosive athletic capacity to be another Buddy Franklin, which is okay as Prime Buddy was the most dominant player the game has seen since Carey.

Very happy with Harry's progress myself. He just needs to still work on his set shot at goal kicking..

Not sure if its fair to say there has been a lack of creativity in the list under Teague, moving Fisher to the forward line was a great move.

 

[bmaurizio]

I’d rather move Fisher to the wing and see how he performs, but yeah in the forward his creativity comes to the fore.