Dean Bailey's Coaching

[Iceberg]

Warning. This thread will contain negative aspects.


I personally do not think Dean Bailey is the man/coach that will lead us to a premiership and have made this known. These are the reasons why.

1. Has no winning culture - Whether it be at training or during the game, nothing but your best should be accepted (ala, Collingwood and Geelong). Winning is everything.
When players do done something that costs the team a goal, have a poor disposals or make stupid decisions they are not reprimanded. It should not be tolerated and they should be dragged and cop a spray.
Dean Bailey does not do this, a better coach would.

2. Has no Foward Line plan- I refer to this as Baileys Bald Spot. Too many times Melbourne do not have someone in their Forward 50 let alone their half. When Melbourne do actually get the ball and look up field to someone to kick it too there is no one. It was very evident on the weekend. How are you meant to win a game when no one is in the forward 50 to kick goals??
Suggestion: Leave Jurrah alone in the Forward 50 to play one on one with his opponent and let him do his magic. He would beat nearly anyone. Plus it would scare the shit out of the opposition player everytime the ball went in.

3. Does not try different things - I am a big critic of his but why not put Jack Watts at CHB and make him learn what it is like to play there. He will be beaten, but it will teach him valuable lessons.
I would also like to see Stephan Martin assume the position of CHF and Aaron Davey coming off the half back flank.

4. Cannot break a defensive zone -Too many times the person kicing in goes long to Jamar, who has 2 or 3 opposition players around him. It is not hard to break a defensive zone and all U18 TAC cup kids have been taught it during their development. The person kicking in needs to move the ball on far more quickly when kicking out as far too often it gives the opposition to set up their zones. Why dont we do it??

5. Cannot create a Forward Zone - It is something that we do not implement properly and it is far to easy for opposition teams to come out of our Forwards half. Which brings me to my next point.

6. Pressure (especially on the opposition ball Carrier) - Far too many time this season we have seen the opposition with the ball and a Melbourne player jogging towards him half heartedly. The opposition should know that in the back of their mind that whenever he gets that ball he is going to be tackled or under pressure.


Dean Baileys record speaks for itself. He does not have a game plan that works and his comments/excuses after games shows that he does not have it in him to be the hardline coach to give us supporters the premiership we would like. He should be moved on at seasons end.

Feel free to add your agreements, disagreements or abuse.

Could not agree more with points 1 and 2. The forwards push up far too quickly - Has to be coaching decision to do that.

Bailey needs to get into Jurrahs ear more as well, he cant play from behind and try for MOTY as much as he currently does. Its not good enough.

 

[bing181]

I think honestly most of us are venting at something lol, I know I am and the coach is predictably the easiest target haha

I honestly think you're right!!

Of course, there's plenty to vent about, and you don't have to look very far to see that there's a lot of frustration in the air!

 

[unstable punt]

Re: Dean Baileys Coaching.

Bailey thread.

agree and he should go as soon as possible, he is not a senior coach and instead of going up the ladder this year I reckon we will be in the last 4

 

[Topkent]

I have just found that interview with Paul Roos, Sheehan and Healy (done after the Hawthorn game) and it's quite interesting. He touches on some of my points in the OP.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/AFL/dis...033969273?subcat=1225864515752&site=FoxSports

Key points from the Interview:

* Hawthorn had 310 uncontested possessions and Melbourne laid 40 tackles the whole game. (6. Pressure)
* 75 inside 50's the whole game. Hawthorn had 42 scoring shots, Melbourne had 17. (2. No forward line plan, 4. Cannot break defensive zone)
* Coming out of the defensive 50, Melbourne only got it past the centre 7 times. (4. Cannot break a defensive zone)
* The game style hasn't changed in 3 years.
* Happy to try and get it out of the defensive 50 with a rebound instead of keeping it in the forward 50. (This reminds me of when Rocky took on Ivan Drago and was happy for him to beat the shit out of him, then he would fight back when he was tired).
* Liam Jurrah should be put in the goalsquare and have it kicked to him, something i suggested. (2. No forward line plan)
* Surprised Melbourne let MacDonald, Bruce and Miller go. (MacDonald was a mistake IMO)
* Need a key CHF/power forward
* Sheehan mentioned moving Watts to defence to get him some football. Roos suggested Wing or HBF. (My reasoning is different though, as i want him to play on a CHF to see what they do first hand and what he needs to do (sorta like Neitz did). (3. Try something different)


It seems that everyone can see the faults in our game plan except the coach. It was just freaky watching them discuss, what i have been thinking for a while. I'm glad im not the only one noticing it or suggesting of alternatives.

well i feel much better having watched that so were not delusional, they is as big of a smack to a gameplan i have ever seen...they almost seemed quizical as to what we were trying to achieve.. exactly like alot of us on here.. our results say 6 points our performances say 0 points...
he is right what strings can you say we have added to our bow in the last 4 years.. our defence is better.. so what do we do.. form a game style that puts more pressure on them...if we roll out with the same game plan against gold coast we are going to give them half a shout

 

[Syrus]

That's because everyone on Bigfooty is an expert, while the coach, his assistants and the entire FD at MFC, in spite of being experienced professionals, know nothing.

Not only on Big Footy it seems. You also have a Premiership coach saying it (Roos) and Brownlow medalist (Healy) and a journalist (a flog). It is that friggin obvious Bing. Watch the game this weekend and note my observations (unless he has changed it during the week).

You all expect the world because you're so delusioned from constant losing. Let the man do his job and give him a respectable amount of time to train and improve a group of inexperienced and young players. If he can't do it, then sack him.

Ar you saying it's his job to lose??

It's not the supporters that are delusioned , it's this man.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

some of the shit in this thread is pathetic and downright disrispectful, you're ready to kick bailey out after a mediocre start to the season?

i found it interesting that bill brownless had big wraps for bails on the footy show last night, he kept saying we were a 'very well coached' side

i'll take his opinion over a bunch of reactive idiots anyday

you can't build a great team in a day... some say bailey has had four years, wrong.

his first two years resulted in the extensive clear out of our list, i would view our 09 and 10 drafts as 'the last pieces of the puzzle' with regard to our list

this is baileys second year with the list he wants, and an ability to head in a direction he wants us to go in, period.

we will have shit games this year, we will have fantastic games this year, we may finish bottom 4... but i doubt it

have some faith in the coach, it won't kill you, impatience for success will ruin any chance the club has of achieving it

an interesting side note, comparing our 25 man squad with the gold coast's, there was 1 year age difference and 18 games difference (on averages)

 

[Syrus]

some of the shit in this thread is pathetic and downright disrispectful, you're ready to kick bailey out after a mediocre start to the season?

In what way is it pathetic and disrespectful?? Some of us can see out of our other eye and see that his "game plan" doesn't work.

you can't build a great team in a day... some say bailey has had four years, wrong.

his first two years resulted in the extensive clear out of our list, i would view our 09 and 10 drafts as 'the last pieces of the puzzle' with regard to our list

You can look at it anyway you want, but the fact is he has had 4 years at Melbourne. Whether you say he was clearing out the list during those 2 years or not it doesn't mean he can't win games.

this is baileys second year with the list he wants, and an ability to head in a direction he wants us to go in, period.

we will have shit games this year, we will have fantastic games this year, we may finish bottom 4... but i doubt it

Have we improved on last year with the gameplan or skills?? The answer is No.

have some faith in the coach, it won't kill you, impatience for success will ruin any chance the club has of achieving it

Impatience?? 46 years not long enough??

Mediocre supporters, support mediocre performances. I won't.

 

[syl]

Mediocre supporters, support mediocre performances. I won't.

Nothing to say about the rest of the post, but that statement is ******ed.

 

[Syrus]

Nothing to say about the rest of the post, but that statement is ******ed.

It's not that hard to understand Syl and lets be honest. This club has been mediocre for a while now. While some supporters are happy with it, I'm not. Why be happy with our performances (eg, Brisbane) where we won, when the whole game was played terribly.

 

[Mightydees]

So Syrus based on what I have read in this thread you believe that finishing 8th is a pass mark for Bailey but you want to move him on now? Is that right?

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

In what way is it pathetic and disrespectful?? Some of us can see out of our other eye and see that his "game plan" doesn't work.

No, it's not pathetic and disrespectful to question the coach, simply the way it is being done tbh

You can look at it anyway you want, but the fact is he has had 4 years at Melbourne. Whether you say he was clearing out the list during those 2 years or not it doesn't mean he can't win games.

the thing is, he has taken us from wrung 4 or so in our development, back to 0 and is now building us up back up again to a team that should be a serious contender in a couple of years

Have we improved on last year with the gameplan or skills?? The answer is No.

yes we have, we have a very versatile game plan now, i'll admit it's patchy at best but we can run and carry or alternatively work our way around a zone

versatility is important and i think it will play dividends in future years

Impatience?? 46 years not long enough??

i don't know about you, but i haven't been around for anywhere near 46 years and bailey has only been around for four, some perspective is needed in regard to that statement

Mediocre supporters, support mediocre performances. I won't.

i'm not supporting them, simply acknowledging them and their validity

we are far from a complete team, you are going to have a frustrating 2 years ahead of you if you think that we should be delivering 'perfect' performances week in, week out

 

[Mightydees]

some of the shit in this thread is pathetic and downright disrispectful, you're ready to kick bailey out after a mediocre start to the season?

i found it interesting that bill brownless had big wraps for bails on the footy show last night, he kept saying we were a 'very well coached' side

i'll take his opinion over a bunch of reactive idiots anyday

you can't build a great team in a day... some say bailey has had four years, wrong.

his first two years resulted in the extensive clear out of our list, i would view our 09 and 10 drafts as 'the last pieces of the puzzle' with regard to our list

this is baileys second year with the list he wants, and an ability to head in a direction he wants us to go in, period.

we will have shit games this year, we will have fantastic games this year, we may finish bottom 4... but i doubt it

have some faith in the coach, it won't kill you, impatience for success will ruin any chance the club has of achieving it

an interesting side note, comparing our 25 man squad with the gold coast's, there was 1 year age difference and 18 games difference (on averages)

I agree 100% PM. We are currently ranked 7th and no-one seems to disagree that 8th would be a pass mark this year (although I think 9th would also be a pass mark especially as we are going to be missing Scully for half the season). Why anyone would be demanding Bailey's head this early in the season is a bizarre to me especially as the first 2 years were about list building.

If the Board sacked Bailey now we would be the most criticised and laughed at club in Australia because the fact is that under Bailey we have been more competitive even with a very young side.

They say that the Y Generation want everything handed to them without working for it and that seems to be reflected in this thread

 

[bing181]

Mediocre supporters, support mediocre performances. I won't.

Great to hear, just the spirit we need around here.

I was thinking of holding my breath till I turned blue, how about you?

 

[Demon 16]

It's not that hard to understand Syl and lets be honest. This club has been mediocre for a while now. While some supporters are happy with it, I'm not. Why be happy with our performances (eg, Brisbane) where we won, when the whole game was played terribly.

You need to be smart and patient to get to the top Syrus. We are just starting our climb from the bottom so dont expect miracles mate.

 

[Dez!]

Even after a 90 point reaming people still bitch?

F*** me I hate our supporters.

 

[Slander]

That is fine but it isn't a fundamental argument about the gameplan itself. Most supporters would/should understand where we are at on the development curve. At the start of the year I thought 10 wins would be reasonable and if we end up on 10 wins it doesn't change a thing about questioning aspects of our gameplan.

If the thread title was why are we so shit? then I would indulge in pointing out the obvious (as many other posters have done) that our early development and lack of top end leadership plays a part.

But the thread isn't about that. The reality is that what we are trying to do wrt strategy and how developed we are to execute it can be isolated debates although some posters on both sides of the equation have perhaps muddied the issue/s.

Look, to me it is all about developing for the next flag. Unlike some others I have tempered my expectations for this season for reasons I've outlined in previous posts. Our gameplan and strategy has looked great in patches this year and ordinary in others - this is a reflection of where our development curve is at IMO.

 

[Syrus]

I was thinking of holding my breath till I turned blue, how about you?

As long as you paint half your face red, I have no problem with you doing that.

So Syrus based on what I have read in this thread you believe that finishing 8th is a pass mark for Bailey but you want to move him on now? Is that right?

No. Read my OP and other posts again. What i said was that I dont think Bailey will be the coach that will deliver us a premiership based on his current game plan and that he should be move on at seasons end if things dont improve. I also said if things aren't working out during the season, then why wait to the end and that I feel that we are heading down the same path as Richmond was, under Terry Wallaces coaching.
Of my 6 observations/points of the coach and his gameplan in the OP Mightydee's which ones do you disagree with?? Surely they would make his gameplan better.

You need to be smart and patient to get to the top Syrus. We are just starting our climb from the bottom so dont expect miracles mate.

Im not expecting miracles mate, only to see some improvement/development and I cant see it. Watts is going backwards, our disposal of the ball is still very poor and i cant see us going forward and winning a premiership with this current "gameplan".
Same question to you though. Of my 6 observations/points of the coach in the OP which ones do you disagree with??

 

[Demon 16]

Im not expecting miracles mate, only to see some improvement/development and I cant see it. Watts is going backwards, our disposal of the ball is still very poor and i cant see us going forward and winning a premiership with this current "gameplan".
Same question to you though. Of my 6 observations/points of the coach in the OP which ones do you disagree with??

Go back and read post 39 - I made a comment on each of your 6 points.

The one I agree most with is our forward zone or press. We have too many '3rd forwards' in Green, Dunn, Petterd, Jurrah, Watts etc. Maric, Jetta, Bennell and Wonna need to give more here.

Personally, I am seeing improvement. Small steps so far, but we're not getting pummelled like 2 and 3 years ago.

We've only lost once this year - to the Hawks who are looking top notch!

 

[HarveyWallbanger]

Good to see Schwabby has let the cat out of the bag and put Bailey on notice. We must get a profile and strong figurehead coach!

 

[AFL is Number One]

Bails is a good coach Have faith.

 

[guitarded]

The thing that i find interesting is every club says we are rebuilding. there's a development stage. it's going to take x amount of years. We'll be a flag contender in blah blah blah. These are full time, professionally employed sportsmen competing at the highest level.

I understand that players will mature, and skill levels will increase with experience, but each club has a mix of rookies, sophomores and senior players. They have meetings, analyze footage, training sessions all for the point of executing these plans on game day. So why does it take 3,4 or 5 years to achieve this goal? That being to put the oval ball through the bigger sticks more times than the opposition.

 

[demonfan9]

The thing that i find interesting is every club says we are rebuilding. there's a development stage. it's going to take x amount of years. We'll be a flag contender in blah blah blah. These are full time, professionally employed sportsmen competing at the highest level.

I understand that players will mature, and skill levels will increase with experience, but each club has a mix of rookies, sophomores and senior players. They have meetings, analyze footage, training sessions all for the point of executing these plans on game day. So why does it take 3,4 or 5 years to achieve this goal? That being to put the oval ball through the bigger sticks more times than the opposition.

As much as you may not like it, there is a clear pattern which says that you must have a certain amount of experience to reach a Grand Final. Looking back at recent years, this is the amount of +100 gamers that each Grand Finalist had on the day.

2010: 13 Collingwood, 14 St Kilda
2009: 16 Geelong, 16 St Kilda
2008: 9 Hawthorn, 15 Geelong
2007: 14 Geelong, 9 Port Adelaide
2006: 14 West Coast, 12 Sydney
2005: 14 Sydney, 10 West Coast
2004: 16 Port Adelaide, 18 Brisbane

It's worth noting that Hawthorn had 3 players on 98/99 games, so they almost had 12 x 100 gamers. The lowest amount there is by Port Adelaide, who got belted by 119 points on the day, so clearly they were not up to the level. On face value, it seems you generally need at least 12 to make the Grand Final, and 14 to win it.

So take a look at Melbourne's list and see how that compares:

224 Brad Green
143 Aaron Davey
116 Robert Campbell (not in best 22)
112 Brent Moloney
112 Jared Rivers
106 Colin Sylvia
99 Mark Jamar
98 Joel Macdonald (not in best 22)
96 Nathan Jones
84 Clint Bartram
83 Matthew Bate (not in best 22)
74 Lynden Dunn
64 James Frawley
52 Cale Morton
51 Matthew Warnock (not in best 22)

By seasons end, Jamar, Macdonald, Jones and Bartram should join the 100 club, which would lift the overall tally to 10, although 2 of them (Campbell, Macdonald) aren't considered best 22. So really that makes it only 8 players. Fast forward to the end of 2012, and probably only Dunn and Frawley will join the 100 club, pushing the tally to 10.

As you can see, even in 2012 we will still be short by recent standards and it won't be until 2013 onwards that we'll comfortably be in double figures. When you look at our best young talent, most of them have played less than 30 games (Grimes, Wonaeamirri, McKenzie, Trengove, Watts, Jurrah, Scully, Bail, Gysberts, Tapscott). In fact, those 10 players have played just 189 games combined.

I know it may seem like a cop out, but the facts are you need to have plenty of experience to be a genuine premiership contender. And while it feels like we've been rebuilding forever (our decline started 4 years ago), I would rather be in this situation now than to have hung on to guys like McDonald, Bruce, McLean, Miller and so on.

 

[The Dr]

As much as you may not like it, there is a clear pattern which says that you must have a certain amount of experience to reach a Grand Final. Looking back at recent years, this is the amount of +100 gamers that each Grand Finalist had on the day.

2010: 13 Collingwood, 14 St Kilda
2009: 16 Geelong, 16 St Kilda
2008: 9 Hawthorn, 15 Geelong
2007: 14 Geelong, 9 Port Adelaide
2006: 14 West Coast, 12 Sydney
2005: 14 Sydney, 10 West Coast
2004: 16 Port Adelaide, 18 Brisbane

It's worth noting that Hawthorn had 3 players on 98/99 games, so they almost had 12 x 100 gamers. The lowest amount there is by Port Adelaide, who got belted by 119 points on the day, so clearly they were not up to the level. On face value, it seems you generally need at least 12 to make the Grand Final, and 14 to win it.

So take a look at Melbourne's list and see how that compares:

224 Brad Green
143 Aaron Davey
116 Robert Campbell (not in best 22)
112 Brent Moloney
112 Jared Rivers
106 Colin Sylvia
99 Mark Jamar
98 Joel Macdonald (not in best 22)
96 Nathan Jones
84 Clint Bartram
83 Matthew Bate (not in best 22)
74 Lynden Dunn
64 James Frawley
52 Cale Morton
51 Matthew Warnock (not in best 22)

By seasons end, Jamar, Macdonald, Jones and Bartram should join the 100 club, which would lift the overall tally to 10, although 2 of them (Campbell, Macdonald) aren't considered best 22. So really that makes it only 8 players. Fast forward to the end of 2012, and probably only Dunn and Frawley will join the 100 club, pushing the tally to 10.

As you can see, even in 2012 we will still be short by recent standards and it won't be until 2013 onwards that we'll comfortably be in double figures. When you look at our best young talent, most of them have played less than 30 games (Grimes, Wonaeamirri, McKenzie, Trengove, Watts, Jurrah, Scully, Bail, Gysberts, Tapscott). In fact, those 10 players have played just 189 games combined.

I know it may seem like a cop out, but the facts are you need to have plenty of experience to be a genuine premiership contender. And while it feels like we've been rebuilding forever (our decline started 4 years ago), I would rather be in this situation now than to have hung on to guys like McDonald, Bruce, McLean, Miller and so on.

Very well constructed and thought out post, and i agree with the fact we're still in a development phase.

Still not sold on Bailey though.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Great post.

 

[d33my]

post of the year, if we ever decide to implement such a thing.